A high-end no-fuss knife - contradiction in terms?

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A well made high-end knife (steel, heat treatment, profile, grind, balance, handle, etc) can be driven hard, just like a good performance car can be driven hard, provided you won't get your knife mirror-polished, so you won't have a near heart-attack when you put a scratch on it when sharpening.

Think of it as a performance knife first, and fine looks second once you start using it. Performance will be there even if the knife shows signs of abuse.

If you are a minimalist when it comes to taking care of your knives, pick a knife in stainless over carbon. Even carbon with some chromium - 52100, A2 will rust if neglected, not to mention steels with less than 1% chromium (Japanese steels, O1, W2, 1080, etc). There are several good steel options to choose from in stainless.

Hand sharpening is something where you should not skip though.

M
 
I wouldn't spend anywhere near as much as $400 to start off with. I'd get something a bit cheaper and see how you like that and then maybe go higher from there. I know a lot of people say this and it sounds like they are negative nancys but going from experience, I really really wish I had done this
 
Well, most people buy a set of Henckels or Wusthof, etc and get by just fine for the rest of their lives. Why would it be such a stretch to get a Gengetsu and get by? In my old age, I'm thinking it's like marriage. Some people spend their whole lives looking for the perfect one when you really just need to learn to use the really good stuff you've got. If he's gonna become a knut, then maybe go through a progression.

What $400 knives did you first buy that were such disasters for you?
 
None wish I would have just gone custom and more high end to start off would have Saved lots of money including stones!
 
tk59 said:
Well, most people buy a set of Henckels or Wusthof, etc and get by just fine for the rest of their lives. Why would it be such a stretch to get a Gengetsu and get by? In my old age, I'm thinking it's like marriage. Some people spend their whole lives looking for the perfect one when you really just need to learn to use the really good stuff you've got. If he's gonna become a knut, then maybe go through a progression.

What $400 knives did you first buy that were such disasters for you?
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For what its worth, i see this a lot. Its part of the reason i discourage it. Its not so much i have problems with my customers, but at least a couple of times a day people come in to my store with knives far more advanced than they should have bought with all kinds of problems they dont know how to deal with (and were directly caused by their lack of skill/ability to deal with such a knife).
 
Sometimes I think that it is interesting to have a knife ratings system. I mean that knives can be classified as 'beginner/intermediate/advanced'. I wonder if vendors sometimes considered to put this classification on their websites? This could be a good idea for many people. Already, vendors put many more esoteric informations.
 
You are wanting to help out a new person, but for sales the vendors will just post what they want.
 
JBroida said:
For what its worth, i see this a lot. Its part of the reason i discourage it. Its not so much i have problems with my customers, but at least a couple of times a day people come in to my store with knives far more advanced than they should have bought with all kinds of problems they dont know how to deal with (and were directly caused by their lack of skill/ability to deal with such a knife).
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And I mean, let's be clear about this. I've probably spent a dozen hours now reading up on various knives and sharpening systems and what-not. So it's not like I'm someone who just walked into a store and bought something. I know the shape of things and what they entail and all that.

Nor am I someone who really turns things over fast. I bought, fresh out of college 14 years ago, reading all the advice I could find at the time and spending what was then a lot of money, a set of Henckels knives, which I've used for quite a long time now. So when I'm looking for something better, I don't really have any desire to buy something vaguely acceptable and then slowly upgrade until I get something good. I'd rather just buy the good thing upfront. And I know that "good" is a somewhat malleable term, and I'm reasonable about that -- like I say, I'm not looking at a "wipe down between cuts so it doesn't rust" carbon steel experience -- but at the end of the day, I don't want to be thinking "well, this knife seems nice enough, I wonder what the good ones are like."
 
The problem here is there is no real answer we can give you. There have been a few times that someone wouldn't try out a "lower, cheaper" knife and was mad when they didn't like xxx about the knife they bought. Each maker has their differences, and some of those will be a deal breaker at the price you are talking about. My first Japanese knife was all chippy, and very reactive. I will not buy that type of knife again. At that time I was also thinking of buying a 600$ knife similar and was glad I bought a cheaper one. I am not saying the 600$ one wont be a good knife, I just don't like the style.

I understand it can be frustrating, but if you spend some time learning what you like you will be more satisfied with having that knife for 10+ years.
 
A $200-300 gyuto is not what anyone here would call "vaguely acceptable". There are extremely fantastic cutters in that range. I enjoy those knives and the thousand dollar ones. Though you should really start about that range to begin. With your budget you can get a great gyuto a petty a parer and a bread knife easy. Maybe even a decent water stone as well. Food for thought.
 
Higher end Japanese knives are intended for experienced and advanced users. A higher end knife will have harder steel, maybe with a convex edge. In the hands of a newbie, the knife will likely chip. It takes experience to sharpen a higher end knife, and to use it effectively.

The better choice for a newbie is to get a lower cost knife, learn how to use it, and sharpen it.

There is an expectation with Japanese knifes that the user will know how to sharpen it. Lower cost knives, will have a softer steel, that is easier to sharpen.

Sharpening is not difficult, but mistakes will happen. It's easier to tolerate a mistake on a $100 knife then a $400 one.

The ideal knife can vary by the needs of a cook. A home cook, has the advantage of being able to use any type of knife. A cook in a restaurant, might place more of a premium on edge retention.

Preference in knife profile and geometry is a personal choice. The Hattori Forum knifes are close to my ideal. They are not to thick or thin. Sharpen easily, take a nice edge and have good edge retention. Other members on the forum have found them lacking and moved onto other knives.

One thing the forum agrees upon is that no one knife can do everything. The gyuto is the most versatile knife, often times it will be paired with a suji. A thin edged cleaver is great at chopping vegetables. It gets supplemented with a small suji or pairing knife.

The more you can identify the needs in your kitchen the easier it is to identify the knives suited to your needs. If you like a variety of cuisines, a gyuto would be hard to beat. Prepare a lot of vegetable dishes? You might want to consider a nakiri.

Jay
 
jaybett said:
There is an expectation with Japanese knifes that the user will know how to sharpen it. Lower cost knives, will have a softer steel, that is easier to sharpen.
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Yes! This is very, very true, and I am not so certain that other readers here know this or not know this. I have one high-end gyuto knife and honestly this was a new knife that I had not sharpened or had changed myself and very little using. (Geometry original and no thinning.) Well, I have met the maker with my knife and he looked at it and was giving me a lecture that I had not done sharpening correctly. Then he took it to his stones and he thinned it. Very interesting that he was thinking his own original shape was not good enough! Honest, I did not understand his language so well (all Japanese) and I could not tell him that there was no change that I had done. But also maybe he told me that it is my responsibility to buy the original and then adapt, and he thinks why didn't I start yet and he showed me! ;)
 
Coming from someone who recently discovered the addiction: buy yourself a carbonext gyuto (whatever size you're comfortabe with) and a king combo 1000/6000. Then just look at videos and sharpen, cut, sharpen, cut, sharpen, cut... and in no time (say a month) you'll have discovered a fantastic new hobby, not to mention the joy of using a very sharp knife that you've enhanced yourself! Oh, I should probably mention that this will start a series of events and realizations that will soon lead you to try something else... something better... something more expensive... :)
 
I honestly don't see why this guy would spent anywhere near some of the money thats being talked about here. A stainless tojiro/fujiwara level knife at around $100 that can get scratched up and be left wet in the sink etc and an edge pro shapening set up would be of far more use than some 500 dollar high end job with no means of sharpening properly. This would still be a huge step up for your average cook. I'd also stay, far, far away from anything with damascus cladding.

You don't need a ferrari if you just want a car that takes you to the shops and back and isn't too much hassle to run.
 
I love the idea of classifying a knife as "beginner", "intermediate" and "advanced", but the possible fallout/result of doing so could be different than we had hoped. I think it's widely accepted that softer 50/50 beveled knives are deemed "beginner" knives when it comes to caring for and maintaining them. However, there are some guys out there with fantastic knife skills who use such knives and to deem their preferred weapon of choice "beginner" just doesn't seem right. The members here all know that knives that are easy to sharpen because of their make-up/design are good for beginners, but I don't feel that makes them a "beginner knife".

You then get into the category of "intermediate", which we would likely all accept as a knife with more expensive materials, harder steel to sharpen and more than likely an asymmetric bevel. Of course, yet again, there's a wrench thrown in, because of knives like Fujiwara FKM/FKH and the Misono line-up. All of these are asymmetrically ground, yet have easy to maintain steels, from a sharpening perspective. BUT, carbon steel gets thrown into the mix and these knives now become more difficult to care for (arguably, of course), and then there's that age old issue we call "reactivity/transference". So, now it seems we need a subcategory for carbon steel knives...damn....

Lastly, we have "advanced", which is the easiest of all to define, or lump into a group. Let's agree these knives are:single beveled, carbon, and cost more than many chefs/cooks earn in a week. If this is the case, even a Knut like myself only owns one such knife. You know what? That seems fair to me. Of course, there are some who say a single bevel is easier to maintain. This, of course, is true - once the blade road has been flattened or leveled off, and the owner decides if he is going to make it a chisel grind, or go with a hamaguri style sharpening, and making sure that while doing so, he maintains the intended geometry by making sure the shinogi line moves at the proper rate across the entire face of the knife, and not overdoing the ura, or micro bevel. And then there's that pesky steel type/cost attribute....

For now, I'll just let our community's social conscience decide what's appropriate for whom, while trying to dissuade those who are obviously "not ready for that cheese".
 
Lefty that's a post that, if expanded, could result in a very interesting "sticky", and no doubt it would be quite debated. All for the better. I just want to underline that as a newbie, what gave me the go was to leave behind the "holy scare" of dealing with an expensive object (i.e. Knife) and just put the thing on the stones and try to reach my perceived goals of joy in using a sharp, beautiful and serviceable tool. I still dare to say that for a newbie, starting with a good knife around the 100/150$ range and a decent stone definitely helps in getting that obstacle out of the way and start enjoying a new hobby.
 
tk59 said:
...

What $400 knives did you first buy that were such disasters for you?
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As a first knife, particularly after German knives, it's hard to find a disaster knife in any Japanese (or American made custom knife).

However, I am pretty sure there are knives in that price range that don't live up to the expectations. Maybe they aren't disasters, but $400 is not a pocket change to spend on a knife, particularly, if it comes with a poor resale value. I think the resale value is what the knife should be judged by.
 
tk59 said:
What $400 knives did you first buy that were such disasters for you?
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Masamoto KS. Well it wasn't a disaster for me, but it was for the knife :fanning: In my newbie sharpening, I made every mistake possible and basically the knife went unused for years until quite recently when after becoming more experienced sharpening-wise, I was able to fix it. It was one of my first good knives. Did I think it was amazing? Yes. Would I have thought a Carbonext was amazing too? Yes

If you're used to Euro knives or even Globals, something like a Tojiro DP is a big improvement. If you buy something that even costs $200, you are getting a great knife. I'd spending something around that and see how it goes, then maybe up the budget for the next one.

Some people might say this sounds like snobbery or something like that, but I'm just going from my own experiences. If you see something you really want that costs $400 and you can't stop thinking about it all day long then get it, but I'd just take it easy for the first one until you see how you like it and how well you can maintain it.
 
So, I am very sympathetic to the idea that I wouldn't want a temperamental, or hard to care for, knife. (That's kind of the premise of the original post, in fact.)

But I don't think that automatically means that I'd want a cheap knife. Yes, I probably want a semi-stainless. Yes, I probably want a more all-purpose blade and not a delicate laser. But I still want something that's as good as possible within my budget, not just good enough. (Which isn't to say that I'm totally price-insensitive. I put $500 as an upper limit in the first post because I just couldn't see myself going above that at all; I'd be a lot more comfortable around $300. But in this, I'm biased to quality over price, so.)

As an analogy, if I wanted a no-fuss, leave-it-in-the-sink frying pan, one might sensibly point me to stainless-clad aluminium instead of copper -- but it would still be worth it to get good clad aluminium instead of cheap Wal-Mart stuff. You know?
 
It's not a matter of pricing - there are good knives at a variety of price points and your budget is a-ok. The guys who are recommending things like the Carbonext and others are speaking from their own experience, many with both lower- and higher-priced knives at their fingertips. There are a lot of subtle elements that go into the design and make of a knife. As they say, every design is a compromise - with price being only one of the factors. Part of the reason why folks are suggesting some of the ones they're suggesting is because many of us have experienced that journey of learning and self-discovery that has led us to understand better what we each individually like in a particular kind of knife. A good part of it is personal preference, as you'll probably see from some of the passaraound threads on the forum.

Really, if you want a great knife that's easy to take care of, pick up that Devin Thomas 270 gyuto in the buy-sell section. You are going to be very hard-pressed to get a stainless gyuto with better steel. With regards to other details like profile height, the grind geometry, edge profile, etc etc... well, those are things that truly knutty folks split hairs over. Those elements make a difference to those of us who spend a lot of mental energy thinking about, remembering, and comparing them, but if you just want a great, great knife that's low maintenance and you don't want to wait too long to get it, that DT 270 is a great choice.

You can buy it, use it well, and be happy for years or decades on end. You'll want to get it nicely sharpened every so often - maybe send it in to Dave at JapaneseKnifeSharpening or Jon at JapaneseKnifeImports - but you will know that you have a fantastic knife (one that many folks here would love to have), it won't require pampering, and it'll perform like a champ for you.

In a way it's really a question of whether this is going to be the only gyuto/chef's knife that you want to buy, or if you want to embark on a journey of learning about your own preferences ... which will take you through who-knows-how-many knives by the time you're "through". There's no actual "through" or "end" as far as I can tell though :)
 
echerub said:
Really, if you want a great knife that's easy to take care of, pick up that Devin Thomas 270 gyuto in the buy-sell section. You are going to be very hard-pressed to get a stainless gyuto with better steel. With regards to other details like profile height, the grind geometry, edge profile, etc etc... well, those are things that truly knutty folks split hairs over. Those elements make a difference to those of us who spend a lot of mental energy thinking about, remembering, and comparing them, but if you just want a great, great knife that's low maintenance and you don't want to wait too long to get it, that DT 270 is a great choice.

You can buy it, use it well, and be happy for years or decades on end. You'll want to get it nicely sharpened every so often - maybe send it in to Dave at JapaneseKnifeSharpening or Jon at JapaneseKnifeImports - but you will know that you have a fantastic knife (one that many folks here would love to have), it won't require pampering, and it'll perform like a champ for you.
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+1 designed for hard use in a pro kitchen environment by one of the best custom markers out there. The only reason I haven't bout the 270mm on sale now is I love carbon steel.
 
I think it is sold, but the DT would have been a great/bad starter knife. Great knife that would have given you an unfair starting point in comparison point to other knives. Sets the bar a bit high.
 
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mkozlos, are there some knives that you've come across in your research so far that appeal to you? Let us know what's caught your eye and why, and the guys will be better able to guide you to a choice that you're going to be very happy with.

BTW, the "is there something better?" question never really goes away because there are so many factors to consider. Because every knife is a compromise of factors, there is always another one that is better in one or more ways. That's why many of us have a whole slew of knives and many of us keep trying new or different knives. There is no objectively "ultimate" knife after which you'll never wonder about whether there's something else that you'll like better. However, the breadth of experience here will help get you to a knife that you're going to enjoy using, will be no fuss, and which only serious knife knuts are going to nitpick on the details ... a portion of which are going to be personal preference factors.

We can guide you to a great knife. We won't be able to guide you to a knife that everyone agrees is the ultimate that cannot be beaten, because such a knife does not exist :)
 
Echerub, this thread has been really helpful and has gotten me pointed in a lot of useful directions.

I think I'm pretty well committed to the semi-stainless stuff. The thread has made me reconsider a lot of my initial assumptions, and I'm now reading up on sharpening stones and all; but even after that, I still can't convince myself that reactive carbon blades would be anything other than annoying to me. I'm also looking for something I can just buy, rather than have to order custom work or whatever -- when I do buy it, I'll want it instantly.

So, things I've been looking at from there, based on comments in this thread and googling elsewhere, are:

1. Gesshin ginga, which tk59 recommended in an early comment. One downside to this one is that I want to try out a wa handle, and this is a western handle.
2. Konosuke HD, which seems to get a lot of positive comments in forums, but might be too "lasery" for my purposes (although I'll still have my Henckels chef knife for breaking up chickens and what-not, so maybe I don't need to worry too much about that?)
3. Gesshin heiji, which I have bookmarked but don't remember why; this is substantially more expensive than the other ones here

Ones that I'm quasi-rejecting are the CarboNext, because a) people say they need serious reworking OOTB and I don't feel like dealing with that, plus b) the name and the marketing just feel really chintzy/gimmicky to me; and the ******** Addict, because a) I don't find many people saying anything about it, and b) I hate the name again. Yes, these are quasi-petty reasons, and if people say I'm being unfair to these knives and they're better than the knives listed above, I'll reconsider.

My tentative plan at the moment is to buy some stones, practice sharpening with my existing knives, and once I'm convinced I can put on a better edge than the machine, order whatever knife I've decided on.
 
(Er, not sure why that word got asterisked out? Did I break a forum rule somehow?)
 
Yes, but I won't get into it.

Another good option might also be the hattori forum, or hd. Mano has a great deal on one now with a custom handle in the b/s/t section. I am not just saying that because of the handle, but it really is a good knife. The hattori forum from jck also has a wa option
 
I heard the guy who made the handle is a real dick :D

The Hattori would be a cool throwback/has stood up against the current choice. Nice suggestion.
 
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