A high-end no-fuss knife - contradiction in terms?

[jaybett]

It's understandable that you wouldn't want a knife, that could be quickly outgrown. I don't think that is possible with Japanese knives though. The reason being, that the performance of Japanese knives is directly related to the ability to sharpen. There is a progression, in the beginning, people are happy to get their knives sharper then what they were out of the box. Then there is learning how to thin and putting a clam shell edge on a knife. Advanced sharpeners have a variety of skills to create highly polished edges, mist effects, etc....

There is a variety of features in Japanese knifes. Some features are more expensive, then others. Just because a knife is more expensive, does not make it better. Higher end features such as harder steel, require sharpening skills and good technique to take advantage of them. Hard steel knives are prone to chipping, if not used properly. Even if used properly accidents do happen, so a person should know how to repair a knife.

The reason why people buy multiple knifes, its not that they have out grown them, but because they want to try out different steels, grinds, geometry, and makers. Often, a new knife purchase is funded by selling off knifes. There are some great deals to be found on the Buy/Sell/Trade thread.

Jay

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

1. Gesshin ginga, which tk59 recommended in an early comment. One downside to this one is that I want to try out a wa handle, and this is a western handle.

Jon carries the Gesshin Ginga with both style handles:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...a/gesshin-ginga-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto.html

It's the one I'd recommend, over the Konosuke HD.

Rick

 

[EdipisReks]

Echerub, this thread has been really helpful and has gotten me pointed in a lot of useful directions.

I think I'm pretty well committed to the semi-stainless stuff. The thread has made me reconsider a lot of my initial assumptions, and I'm now reading up on sharpening stones and all; but even after that, I still can't convince myself that reactive carbon blades would be anything other than annoying to me. I'm also looking for something I can just buy, rather than have to order custom work or whatever -- when I do buy it, I'll want it instantly.

So, things I've been looking at from there, based on comments in this thread and googling elsewhere, are:

1. Gesshin ginga, which tk59 recommended in an early comment. One downside to this one is that I want to try out a wa handle, and this is a western handle.
2. Konosuke HD, which seems to get a lot of positive comments in forums, but might be too "lasery" for my purposes (although I'll still have my Henckels chef knife for breaking up chickens and what-not, so maybe I don't need to worry too much about that?)
3. Gesshin heiji, which I have bookmarked but don't remember why; this is substantially more expensive than the other ones here

Ones that I'm quasi-rejecting are the CarboNext, because a) people say they need serious reworking OOTB and I don't feel like dealing with that, plus b) the name and the marketing just feel really chintzy/gimmicky to me; and the ******** Addict, because a) I don't find many people saying anything about it, and b) I hate the name again. Yes, these are quasi-petty reasons, and if people say I'm being unfair to these knives and they're better than the knives listed above, I'll reconsider.

My tentative plan at the moment is to buy some stones, practice sharpening with my existing knives, and once I'm convinced I can put on a better edge than the machine, order whatever knife I've decided on.

both the Ginga (which does come in a wa-handled variety) and the Konosuke are going to be too lasery for a first good knife. the Heiji is a kickass knife, but i wouldn't buy it if you aren't already quite good at free-hand sharpening, due to the way it's ground and the maintenance requirements. something like the Birchwood miyabi might work for you. it's a bit more robust than the monosteel lasers, the handle splits the difference between western and wa (though i don't think the handles on these are stabilized, so you'll want to wax the wood), it has a good, fairly simple geometry, which makes sharpening easier (and which is less likely to be immediately ruined by an electric sharpener), it will take a very fine edge and keep it pretty well, and will cut quite nicely. i would say that it will certainly feel high end to you, even if it's not necessarily the kind of knife most people on this forum would buy for the money.

 

[mkozlows]

Jon carries the Gesshin Ginga with both style handles:

http://www.japaneseknifeimports.com...a/gesshin-ginga-240mm-stainless-wa-gyuto.html

It's the one I'd recommend, over the Konosuke HD.

Thanks for the link. What would make you recommend it over the Konosuke?

 

[JBroida]

I love the idea of classifying a knife as "beginner", "intermediate" and "advanced", but the possible fallout/result of doing so could be different than we had hoped. I think it's widely accepted that softer 50/50 beveled knives are deemed "beginner" knives when it comes to caring for and maintaining them. However, there are some guys out there with fantastic knife skills who use such knives and to deem their preferred weapon of choice "beginner" just doesn't seem right. The members here all know that knives that are easy to sharpen because of their make-up/design are good for beginners, but I don't feel that makes them a "beginner knife".

You then get into the category of "intermediate", which we would likely all accept as a knife with more expensive materials, harder steel to sharpen and more than likely an asymmetric bevel. Of course, yet again, there's a wrench thrown in, because of knives like Fujiwara FKM/FKH and the Misono line-up. All of these are asymmetrically ground, yet have easy to maintain steels, from a sharpening perspective. BUT, carbon steel gets thrown into the mix and these knives now become more difficult to care for (arguably, of course), and then there's that age old issue we call "reactivity/transference". So, now it seems we need a subcategory for carbon steel knives...damn....

Lastly, we have "advanced", which is the easiest of all to define, or lump into a group. Let's agree these knives are:single beveled, carbon, and cost more than many chefs/cooks earn in a week. If this is the case, even a Knut like myself only owns one such knife. You know what? That seems fair to me. Of course, there are some who say a single bevel is easier to maintain. This, of course, is true - once the blade road has been flattened or leveled off, and the owner decides if he is going to make it a chisel grind, or go with a hamaguri style sharpening, and making sure that while doing so, he maintains the intended geometry by making sure the shinogi line moves at the proper rate across the entire face of the knife, and not overdoing the ura, or micro bevel. And then there's that pesky steel type/cost attribute....

For now, I'll just let our community's social conscience decide what's appropriate for whom, while trying to dissuade those who are obviously "not ready for that cheese".

Its really not this simple at all... what might be a beginner knife for one person can easily be an advanced knife for another. It really depends on so many things that its not possible to accurately classify in this kind of way.

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Thanks for the link. What would make you recommend it over the Konosuke?

Two reasons.

In my opinion, the fit and finish of the Gesshin Ginga is better than the Konosuke.

The HD steel of the Konosuke will stain. The Gesshin Ginga won't.

 

[ThEoRy]

It's not so much as putting a better edge on your knives than a machine can, which is easily doable. It's more about caring for your knife through proper maintenance. I don't think the machine can put a proper asymmetrical edge which is required for Japanese knives. Without a proper edge the knife will wedge or steer or both. The machine won't properly thin behind the edge as you would after repeated sharpening either, leaving you with a thick wedge over time. Machines just grind away metal shortening the useful life of the knife. Then there's convex edges, micro bevels, stropping etc. There's just so much more you can do freehand vs machines and jigs its ridiculous. You can do anything freehand on stones, any other system has limitations.

 

[jimbob]

+1 for the hattori fh. I got 3 knives a month ago as my first j knives after much research. For me the perfect all rounder to begin and from what others say aren't just a "beginner" knife but a genuine cutter also. Easy to sharpen on stones too, (also a beginner) which is actually quite a fast process and wouldn't have to be done all that much in a home environment.

 

[Lefty]

That's exactly my point, Jon.

 

[stevenStefano]

Two reasons.

In my opinion, the fit and finish of the Gesshin Ginga is better than the Konosuke.

The HD steel of the Konosuke will stain. The Gesshin Ginga won't.

Sorry to go OT but I find this interesting since I have an HD. Have you used a Ginga much Rick? Hard to find much info about them

 

[tk59]

Its really not this simple at all... what might be a beginner knife for one person can easily be an advanced knife for another. It really depends on so many things that its not possible to accurately classify in this kind of way.

I've seen enough poorly maintained knives from respected members of this and other forums that I think in many cases, it's somewhat pompous to tell someone their knife is too advanced for them. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the high end knives that get sold out of a place like JKI are operating far below their potential. I'll admit I'm still learning, myself. Any time you buy a tool for the first time, you ought to read the manual. If there is no manual, you'd hope the vendor understands how to best utilize what he/she is selling so that the knowledge can be passed on. Then you just try to be diligent and hope for the best. The OP seems like someone who's being very realisitic in his expectations and is willing to so what is necessary to best utilize whatever knife he chooses. If he just seems that way and really isn't, he can sell his knife back here for a bit of a loss. That said, I would go for something that doesn't have secondary bevels. They will thicken up pretty quick and maintaining large bevels takes more skill than most people want to spend the time to develop. Gesshin Ginga or Sakai Yusuke or for a bit more, Suisin inox honyaki are the logical choice. There's nothing wrong with using these thin knives as all arounders.

 

[mattrud]

I've seen enough poorly maintained knives from respected members of this and other forums that I think in many cases, it's somewhat pompous to tell someone their knife is too advanced for them. I wouldn't be surprised if 90% of the high end knives that get sold out of a place like JKI are operating far below their potential. I'll admit I'm still learning, myself. Any time you buy a tool for the first time, you ought to read the manual. If there is no manual, you'd hope the vendor understands how to best utilize what he/she is selling so that the knowledge can be passed on. Then you just try to be diligent and hope for the best. The OP seems like someone who's being very realisitic in his expectations and is willing to so what is necessary to best utilize whatever knife he chooses. If he just seems that way and really isn't, he can sell his knife back here for a bit of a loss. That said, I would go for something that doesn't have secondary bevels. They will thicken up pretty quick and maintaining large bevels takes more skill than most people want to spend the time to develop. Gesshin Ginga or Sakai Yusuke or for a bit more, Suisin inox honyaki are the logical choice. There's nothing wrong with using these thin knives as all arounders.

Its a back and forth thing. I also think most people's knives are maintained improperly or below their potential. For example I likely never take a knife to its maximum sharpness because that would be pointless for me as I need something resilient more then anything. But you know this Tinh. By the way do I still have the title of dullest knife sent back to you. Pretty proud of that one, I used the Sh*t out of that knife.

 

[tk59]

...For example I likely never take a knife to its maximum sharpness because that would be pointless for me as I need something resilient more then anything...

Actually, I don't think that is an example at all. I'm more referring to things like failing to thin a knife when it's thick or not sharpening the tip or the heel properly or not hitting the edge or not maintaining the height or convexity of secondary bevels, etc., etc.

...By the way do I still have the title of dullest knife sent back to you. Pretty proud of that one, I used the Sh*t out of that knife.

Yes. Easily. You must have incredible mental fortitude. irate1:

 

[mattrud]

fair enough. I won't argue with that. I still say I have yet to meet a chef or cook that knew what they were doing(well actually understood what they were doing) in my career.

If you don't push something to its limit then you don't really know what it is.

 

[Lucretia]

Don't know anything about the Miyabis myself, but have heard some good reviews on them. If you wanted to try one low-risk, Sur La Table has a line of Miyabis--"Artisans"--that are SG2 stainless with pakkawood handles, and the 8" chef's knife is on sale with free shipping. SLT is known for its excellent return policy. Just something else to muddy the water...

Is there a knife store anywhere near you where you could go and handle some knives? You might find one that feels just right to your hand and grip that way.

 

[tk59]

...Is there a knife store anywhere near you where you could go and handle some knives? You might find one that feels just right to your hand and grip that way.

Actually, that's a great idea. Where are you at?

 

[mkozlows]

So, I've ordered some Chosera stones and a thing to go over the sink, and then took tk's advice and ordered the Gesshin Ginga.

I figure at this point, my choices were mostly between options that are various shades of very good, and I'd gotten about 90% of the information I'd get by continuing to read reviews and forums, so it makes sense to just get something and get hands-on with it. Worst case scenario, I find out I hate it for one reason or another, and now I've learned something that I can use in the future. Likely case scenario is that I'll like it quite a bit.

Thanks to everyone who took time to help me out. Even if I didn't take your suggestion, I did google and do elaborate follow-up reading to everything suggested in this thread, and it all helped me get a picture of the landscape.

 

[JBroida]

want me to sharpen it for you before it ships out?

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

Sorry to go OT but I find this interesting since I have an HD. Have you used a Ginga much Rick? Hard to find much info about them

I have a 30 cm Ginga suji. I've had a early production HD gyuto (one with the buttcap) and have a current production wa-petty. The spine and choil on the early production knives had more attention given to them than they do now. In my opinion, the F&F on the Konosuke has gone down since Jon stopped carrying them, but that could just be this knife.

 

[wenus2]

Good for you, congratulations!

Truth be told, I think this was really the best case scenario.
It's a great knife and those are great stones so you are well on your way.

I like that you wanted the best and that you are research heavy, you fit right in around here. I hope to see you stick around.

 

[wenus2]

want me to sharpen it for you before it ships out?

I wouldn't turn that down, ever.

 

[Blobby]

.............it's somewhat pompous to tell someone their knife is too advanced for them..............

Don't know about that. If you're inexperienced you would expect that sort of advice, expressed in a non-pompous way obviously, from knowledgeable people.


@OP: If you're after a superior sharpness and edge retention, the entry level carbon knife I've got ($70 delivered) knocks ten barrels of s...t out of any stainless knife I've ever used or owned. Honestly, these things are in a different league. Assuming it's a similar story with entry level Japanese stainless you don't need to spend a lot or you could get several knives. At present I've yet to determine why, aside from the collecting/custom/bespoke/appearance aspect, anyone would want to spend $400 on a single, general use kitchen knife.

 

[mkozlows]

want me to sharpen it for you before it ships out?

I, uh, wouldn't complain?

I figure I'm going to be terrible at sharpening at first, so my plan is to try sharpening up my Henckels knives until I'm confident I can sharpen a knife without making it worse; and use the Ginga as it comes at first so I have a baseline of what it should do before I touch it.

 

[mc2442]

Very nice offer Jon!

 

[JBroida]

I, uh, wouldn't complain?

I figure I'm going to be terrible at sharpening at first, so my plan is to try sharpening up my Henckels knives until I'm confident I can sharpen a knife without making it worse; and use the Ginga as it comes at first so I have a baseline of what it should do before I touch it.

just made a note to do this before we ship tomorrow

*sorry to the rest of the thread for the OT posts

 

[cclin]

....................... I would go for something that doesn't have secondary bevels. They will thicken up pretty quick and maintaining large bevels takes more skill than most people want to spend the time to develop. Gesshin Ginga or Sakai Yusuke or for a bit more, Suisin inox honyaki are the logical choice. There's nothing wrong with using these thin knives as all arounders.

tk, when you said "doesn't have secondary bevels" is mean like #2 flat grind with no secondary bevel in picture? I think it is good for suji but too weak for all around gyuto! my ideal for all around gyuto should able take multi-tasks, won't reactive food & blade won't stain easy with good edge retention. I like my all around gyuto with little weight with Convex grinds like #6 in picture. thin knives is great for vegetable cutting but feel very fragile for cutting high density food, hard root veg. & protein.. just my :2cents:

 

[Johnny.B.Good]

Congratulations to the OP, and welcome to the addiction!

 

[JBroida]

tk, when you said "doesn't have secondary bevels" is mean like #2 flat grind with no secondary bevel in picture? I think it is good for suji but too weak for all around gyuto! my ideal for all around gyuto should able take multi-tasks, won't reactive food & blade won't stain easy with good edge retention. I like my all around gyuto with little weight with Convex grinds like #6 in picture. thin knives is great for vegetable cutting but feel very fragile for cutting high density food, hard root veg. & protein.. just my :2cents:

i think he's talking more about something like #5 or if #3 had hamaguri edges and a tiny bevel towards the edge

 

[Lefty]

I've learned number 4 with a micro bevel is damn good too, for a gyuto.

 

[cclin]

I've learned number 4 with a micro bevel is damn good too, for a gyuto.

that be like 99/1 asymmetric edge!! don't you have "steering" problem when you cut??