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Bobby2shots said:
I don't "buy" the bandwidth limitation argument for one moment. How convenient that the two front runners going neck and neck, would have either camera not operating. Outrageous.
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Both rear cameras were turned on. The bandwidth limitation is what I've been reading and sounds plausible to me. However, it doesn't really matter, as all the footage in stored in the car and can be downloaded after a race for review.
Bobby2shots said:
Well, Toto looks very pissed off at the moment, and he said "Diplomacy is over". Toto is not one to make frivolous talk, and I don't blame him. I wouldn't be at all surprised if he decides to put a brand new ICE in each car, and each race from now until it's all over. There's at least 35 million Pounds at stake here.
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Well, I'm a max fan, but I think he does have a point for what happened at turn 4. Penalties have been given for this in the past. As the incident was only noted, the stewards only look at the footage that's available at the time. When investigated, they also look at telemetry, steering input and brake points. IMO, it should have at least be investigated.

On the whole 0.2mm gap debacle, don't tell me that Toto wouldn't have done the exact same thing when given the chance. Mercedes arguing about the RB flexiwing and that sub 2 sec pitstops are 'unsafe' come to mind.
 
Bart.s said:
Both rear cameras were turned on. The bandwidth limitation is what I've been reading and sounds plausible to me. However, it doesn't really matter, as all the footage in stored in the car and can be downloaded after a race for review.

Well, I'm a max fan, but I think he does have a point for what happened at turn 4. Penalties have been given for this in the past. As the incident was only noted, the stewards only look at the footage that's available at the time. When investigated, they also look at telemetry, steering input and brake points. IMO, it should have at least be investigated.

On the whole 0.2mm gap debacle, don't tell me that Toto wouldn't have done the exact same thing when given the chance. Mercedes arguing about the RB flexiwing and that sub 2 sec pitstops are 'unsafe' come to mind.
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I agree about the pit-stops. Mercedes sucks, not only in duration, but also the call-to-pit. They're not pro-active,,,, they simply react to what others are doing.

That said, Max was allowed to repair his broken wing under Parc Ferme conditions, twice,,,, both in Texas and in Mexico. Why was this even permitted by the FIA, let alone the fact that he nor the team were penalized? Mercedes on the other hand, had their wing immediately seized by the FIA, and Merc was not even allowed to see the wing, nor, did they get the ruling that they were being disqualified until 2 hours before the sprint. Do you see a little disparity here???? Also, on what basis did Adrian Newey and Paul Monaghan base their investigation request to the FIA, before being allowed to see the wing themselves???? Why would the FIA even entertain such a request??? Granted on "suspicion" from a competitor ??????

Then,,, why did Christian Horner immediately call the stewards after Max forced Lewis off the track???? Horner KNEW at that precise moment, that his driver had f--ked up, and could possibly get a "race-over-for-him" penalty. In a court of law, that's known as "consciousness of guilt".

So to cap it off, the FIA sees fit to "fine" Lewis for unfastening his shoulder harness in order to reach for a flag that someone trackside is giving him "after the race",,,, a rule that supposedly has not been enforced in over 20 years,,, but Max gets no penalty for turn 4???????? No wonder Toto's pissed.
 
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Bobby2shots said:
I agree about the pit-stops. Mercedes sucks, not only in duration, but also the call-to-pit. They're not pro-active,,,, they simply react to what others are doing.

That said, Max was allowed to repair his broken wing under Parc Ferme conditions, twice,,,, both in Texas and in Mexico. Why was this even permitted by the FIA, let alone the fact that he nor the team were penalized? Mercedes on the other hand, had their wing immediately seized by the FIA, and Merc was not even allowed to see the wing, nor, did they get the ruling that they were being disqualified until 2 hours before the sprint. Do you see a little disparity here???? Also, on what basis did Adrian Newey and Paul Monaghan base their investigation request to the FIA, before being allowed to see the wing themselves???? Why would the FIA even entertain such a request??? Granted on "suspicion" ??????

Then,,, why did Christian Horner immediately call the stewards after Max forced Lewis off the track???? Horner KNEW at that precise moment, that his driver had f--ked up, and could possibly get a "race-over-for-him" penalty. In a court of law, that's known as "consciousness of guilt".

So, the FIA sees fit to "fine" Lewis for unfastening his shoulder harness in order to reach for a flag that someone trackside is giving him "after the race",,,, a rule that supposedly has not been enforced in over 20 years,,, but Max gets no penalty for turn 4???????? No wonder Toto's pissed.
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From what I've read, both in Austin and Mexico, max's wings were cracked, but still met regulations, hence they were permitted to change under parc ferme. Lewis' wing did not met regulations.

On what basis did Adrian and paul base their request? I'm really not sure, but my best guess would be: RB has, like every other major F1 team, a photographer that takes HD images of the cars when passing the straight. This is mostly used for checking tires and damage during a race, stuff like that. But it is ofcourse, also used to spy on other teams. They initially went to the FIA with the complaint that the Mercedes wing was bending too much under speed and came with 'evidence' (my guess, photos from their photographer). It was only during the inspection that the FIA found out of the gap being too big.
 
Yes, the gap was too big,,,, by 0.2mm,,, and you're telling me that a photographer would see this miniscule issue as a hi-speed car passes by? I think that would be impossible,,, and, since the wing passed all tests on one side, and in its' mid-section,,, why would Mercedes not be allowed to see why their own wing didn't comply,,, specifically, caused by an accident during qualifying. Even the FIA stated after doing the tests, that there was no evidence of "intent". So,,,, why wait 'til 2 hours before the sprint the next morning, to tell Mercedes why the wing didn't comply, nor did Mercedes get the chance to fix it like Max did in Texas and Mexico? And the biggest laugh of all,,, why was Mercedes disqualified.

Regarding Parc Ferme , from what I've seen, nobody other than FIA officials can enter Parc Ferme,,,, not even to check something, nor do repairs of any kind. Max "checked" Lewis's wing after quali, and got a 50,000 Euro fine for his trouble, plus a few points on his license. Somethings' not jiving here. How can Red Bull determine their wing was "cracked" without "checking"???
 
Could it be that the discussion about the implications and hence a penalty, and if so which one, or not... took FIA long?
I mean, regardless of when you hear you're disqualified, you're there already and it's a post facto.
 
MarcelNL said:
Could it be that the discussion about the implications and hence a penalty, and if so which one, or not... took FIA long?
I mean, regardless of when you hear you're disqualified, you're there already and it's a post facto.
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Mercedes still has not gotten their wing back from the FIA as of the finish of yesterday's race, despite the stewards specifically stating that there was no "obvious intent" to break the rules. So which is it? Cause for DSQ??? or get permission to repair the wing. Without the wing, it is impossible to mount a defense. Mercedes specs for their wing is posted in their library, and has been checked many times throughout the season, and always approved by the FIA.
 
so what, I suspect they'll get it back at some point....if they want it -and need it....for now, that wing is no good as it's out of spec..Mercedes obviously has more than one or they would not have raced. How is the intent or not to break rules relevant for giving that wing back? Did Merc ask for it yet? I mean...I do not follow F1 closely at all, yet a defense is also going to be post facto, and still an avenue open to Merc...so where is the rush?
 
At two hours before the Sprint, Mercedes was unaware of what the exact problem was with the wing. Since they've used the same wing design all season long, and since all their replacement wings were identical, and since the FIA had already tested and approved them many times throughout the season , what do Mercedes do insofar as a legal replacement goes? Will the wing need to be repaired? re-designed? 2 hours to race-time????
 
Bobby2shots said:
Yes, the gap was too big,,,, by 0.2mm,,, and you're telling me that a photographer would see this miniscule issue as a hi-speed car passes by? I think that would be impossible,,, and, since the wing passed all tests on one side, and in its' mid-section,,, why would Mercedes not be allowed to see why their own wing didn't comply,,, specifically, caused by an accident during qualifying. Even the FIA stated after doing the tests, that there was no evidence of "intent". So,,,, why wait 'til 2 hours before the sprint the next morning, to tell Mercedes why the wing didn't comply, nor did Mercedes get the chance to fix it like Max did in Texas and Mexico? And the biggest laugh of all,,, why was Mercedes disqualified.

Regarding Parc Ferme , from what I've seen, nobody other than FIA officials can enter Parc Ferme,,,, not even to check something, nor do repairs of any kind. Max "checked" Lewis's wing after quali, and got a 50,000 Euro fine for his trouble, plus a few points on his license. Somethings' not jiving here. How can Red Bull determine their wing was "cracked" without "checking"???
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When RB replaced parts in Parc Fermé, both times they had reported the break BEFORE the car was in Parc Fermé, and, both times, the part was checked and found to be legitimately broken. By rules, you can replace those parts, and both the outgoing and the incoming part will be checked for compliance if possible. Here, Merc never reported anything, then were caught in violation. Hence the penalty.
 
Bobby2shots said:
At two hours before the Sprint, Mercedes was unaware of what the exact problem was with the wing. Since they've used the same wing design all season long, and since all their replacement wings were identical, and since the FIA had already tested and approved them many times throughout the season , what do Mercedes do insofar as a legal replacement goes? Will the wing need to be repaired? re-designed? 2 hours to race-time????
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That is not true. The wing was known to have failed well prior to two hours before. The official ruling came down 2 hours before. But everyone knew that the wing had failed the post-session test.

They have not used the exact same wing or even the exact same wing design all season - teams change wings all the time. They use different configurations for different circuits. They just have to respect the rules of the Formula, which includes precise measures for DRS opening.
 
big_adventure said:
They use different configurations for different circuits. They just have to respect the rules of the Formula, which includes precise measures for DRS opening.
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ultimately Merc is responsible to use a wing that is compliant, for this one that was broken and for whatever others they have in stock. I really do not see the issue other than a long wait but I may be missing parts as I am not that interested in all the faff around the F1.
 
MarcelNL said:
ultimately Merc is responsible to use a wing that is compliant, for this one that was broken and for whatever others they have in stock. I really do not see the issue other than a long wait but I may be missing parts as I am not that interested in all the faff around the F1.
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Of course - this wasn't some new rule that was sprung on them. They decided to push the limits, and if you do that, you run the risk of violating a rule, whether intentionally or not. If I were designing a mechanical thing that had to respect 85mm of tolerance, I'd either (and most likely) build in a hard stop at 84.5mm OR set it for 83 if there is a risk of it loosening somewhat during the race. Not having the hard stop, to me, opens the door to cheating, letting the system open further then permitted guessing that you might slip through the check. Unfortunately, the car's performance was soooooo much better than every other car on the track in the straights (and that's all car, has nothing to do with the driver) that they were basically guaranteed to get this checked. Merc has tried to claim that they were just 0.2mm over the limit, but that's their marketing department talking. F1 has not made any such announcement. They don't actually test exactly how far the thing opens, they just push through a fixed-size ring. If it passes through, the win fails. It could pass by a mm, or by a meter, it's just a fail.
 
These two are both excellent drivers. Expect more blocking cutting off lines all kinds of stuff to blab about.

Three more races to decide championship 💥
 
Yep, exciting season for sure. I just wish there was a bit more depth in F-1, so we'd see perhaps 3-4 teams fighting it out each race, instead of the same two all the time. All too often, the TV directors are covering some inconsequential battle for p-16 vs P-17, etc, because it's the only real "battle" on the track at that moment. We need more teams with deeeep pockets, competing at the front.

One future improvement I can see, would be to completely re-structure the start. As it stands now, the fastest qualifiers start in front, and the back-markers have to travel quite a distance just to get to the line where P-1 started. What they should do in my opinion, would be to start even more separated on the track, and time their laps from each of their start positions,,,, not a specific finish line. There would be in effect, 20 finish lines. They have the technology now to do that. There'd also be less danger going into turn-1. (less traffic)

Apparently, the 2022 cars will have re-vamped air-flow out the back-end, reducing turbulence for cars that are behind. This hopefully will allow more passing, and less tire degradation from following in "dirty air".

I also think DRS needs to be re-evaluated.

That said,,, what about that Pierre Gasly;, he's been doing an incredible job for Alpha Tauri this season. Apparently, Horner's taking a second look at Pierre as a possible promotion to the big team.
 
Agreed that F1 definitely could use more depth in terms of teams competing for the championship. Ferrari and McLaren always used to be a forces to be reckoned with, sadly this hasn't been the case last couple of years. I hope they can step up next year, as they certainly have the resources and drivers to do so.

From what I read, DRS is going to be re-evaluated. If the new '22 cars aero packages work as desired, there wouldn't be a need for DRS, as overtaking should be easier. But, without sounding too negative, when there are new technical regulations being introduced, usually 1 or 2 teams will get it right from the start, while others are playing catch-up. Just look at the whole hybrid engine era and how long it took RB. Really hoping that won't be the case this time.

And true, Gasly is driving one hell of a season in the Alpha Tauri. Nice to see he has gotten another chance there. Wouldn't be surprised if he would end up with Alpine.
 
Agree that the start could use some work. Guys
starting from the back have much more difficult
passing to do.

Then again what Hamilton did Sunday coming from 10th to 2nt made it look easy. Maybe the
new ICE they dropped in for Brazil. If Mercedes
kicked it up a notch Honda has to adapt so Max
has a chance to be world champion.
 
RB is banking on the engine drop off from the Mercs. The Mercedes engines seem to have difficulties with the engine performance once wear and tear have set in. Honda on the other hand, are much more consistent.
 
I heard Mercedes are going to introduce a new wing for Bahrain:
IMG-20211114-WA0002.jpg
 
Bart.s said:
RB is banking on the engine drop off from the Mercs. The Mercedes engines seem to have difficulties with the engine performance once wear and tear have set in. Honda on the other hand, are much more consistent.
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Let's not forget that Toto announced at the end of last year, that Mercedes was going to allocate most of their 2021 development budget to developing the 2022 car. The current Merc is basically their 2020 car with very few developments, so it's no surprise that when they do add a new development that there's a significant performance increase. In fact, I criticized Toto's decision several times earlier in this thread about ignoring the current season. Red Bull on the other hand, was continually developing their 2021 car.

There's also been much info posted on a bad batch of engine blocks that Mercedes has had to contend with this year. Apparently, that problem has now been identified and resolved. Supposedly, their old engine blocks were developing hairline cracks as the season wore on, resulting in a gradual and premature drop-off in performance. Their wing has nothing to do with their performance increase as we've seen in the Brazil race result.

I said it earlier, and I'll say it again; don't be surprised if Toto opens up his 2021 development-wallet and adds a few more new ICE units before the end of the season, possibly to both cars. The performance gain would outweigh any grid penalties incurred, and, the cost would be easily outweighed by the potential prize-money involved.. This could boil down to budget-cap restrictions. If Mercedes pulls off a 1-2 in Qatar, we might be down to 3 points separating Max and Lewis for the last two races in Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi. If Lewis wins Qatar, and Max finishes 4th, we're essentially tied going into the last two races. The "fastest-lap point" could play a significant role in deciding this years' championship.

Let's also keep an eye on what happens with Toto's appeal and the stewards' review regarding the Brazil Turn 4 incident. A 5-second time-penalty for Max could swing 3 points less for Max, to a 3 point gain for Valtteri. Valtteri finished just over 3 seconds behind Max in Brazil. (3.08 seconds)

The new Saudi Arabia street circuit, is being billed as the world's fastest street race,,, fasten your seatbelt baby,,,, this is going to get hot.
Lights out,,,,, go, go, go, go goooooo!!!!!
 
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I don't think that the FIA will give max a 5 sec penalty. This would indeed put max at P3 in Brazil. But then RB would, quite fairly, open a protest that Max was just cruising the car home. Bottas got the call to 'go get him', so he was going all out. But would Max have known at the moment he got a 5 sec penalty, he would have done everything to keep the gap over 5 sec and probably could have done it. If a penalty comes out of this, a grid penalty for next race would sound more reasonable to me.

But yeah, if Mercedes keeps this pace up, the tracks don't favour Max. Bahrain has a lot of straights with slow corners, jeddah a fast circuit with a 1km straight. This could very well be decided in Abu Dhabi.
 
Bart.s said:
I don't think that the FIA will give max a 5 sec penalty. This would indeed put max at P3 in Brazil. But then RB would, quite fairly, open a protest that Max was just cruising the car home. Bottas got the call to 'go get him', so he was going all out. But would Max have known at the moment he got a 5 sec penalty, he would have done everything to keep the gap over 5 sec and probably could have done it. If a penalty comes out of this, a grid penalty for next race would sound more reasonable to me.
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It's possible also, that the FIA might reject the "Right to Review" request; but I'd imagine all hell will break loose if that happens. If they do proceed with a time penalty, it would have to be consistent with past incidents and rulings,,, although this particular incident was quite unique, given that both cars left the track, and to the extremes of that departure.

So far, all we (the public) are seeing is the onboard video. We've yet to see the onboard telemetry. (steering input, ,brakes,,"G" forces, etc.

If Max slowed in the final laps, I can't see how this would have any baring on a penalty decision. When assessing a penalty, the stewards are not allowed to consider the consequences of that penalty,,,, only whether an offense had occurred.
 
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I'll guess we find out today. The hearing is today at 17:00 local. This is to review if 'the right to review exists' and whether 'a significant and new element is discovered' (Max's onboard).
 
Yes, the request is under "Right of Review; article 14.1.1 of the International Sporting Code". There's also the fact that the incident was not investigated to begin with. (Stewards declare "no investigation necessary")

Bottom line here is, the FIA has got to come to terms with consistent application of the rules. It's the inconsistency that is causing this uproar. Decisions such as was handed down, strongly suggest favouring one team over another. If this incident had occurred with back-markers, would the decision to not investigate have been the same?

From the FIA;
An International Automobile Federation (FIA) statement said: “In accordance with Art. 14 of the International Sporting Code (ISC), and following the petition for review by Mercedes-AMG Petronas F1 Team, lodged on 16 November 2021, the Team Manager and such witnesses as the Competitor may request, up to three, are required to appear via video conference (invitation by separate cover) at 17:00 hrs Local (Qatar) on Thursday, November 18 2021.
 
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Don't know much about last modern decades, but brand dominance is nothing new. Bugatti in 1920's, Alfa Romeo early 1930's. Mercedes Silver Arrows & Auto Union mid to late 1930's.
Post war 1940's Alfa Romeo then Ferrari & Maserati. Mercedes countered Italian dominance with Hi tech cars early 1950's. In 1955 Mercedes dropped out of racing after one of their cars killed 83 people.
 
Yes by early 1950's the cars were fast & crowds
we're packed by the thousands near the road as if it was a bicycle race.
 
Qatar Grand Prix news;

Max Verstappen (P2) is summoned to the stewards Sunday, for ignoring double-waived yellow flags in Qatar qualifying.

Bottas (P3) and Sainz (P7) also summoned to the stewards for not slowing for single yellow flags in quali.

Hamilton starts on pole (P1),,, clean side of the track. Lewis has approx a .45 second gap to P2. Amazing laps from Gasly (P4) Alonso (P5), and Ocon (P6). Not sure what happened to Ocon, because he's now shown as starting (P9)

Perez didn't make it into Q3, and will start 11th. If Verstappen, Bottas and Sainz get grid penalties, Gasly will likely start P2.

Ironically, it was Gasly who went off the track, exploding his front wing, and causing his right front tire to explode just as qualifying was ending, scuttling Verstappen's Bottas's, and Sainz's last flying laps.

Norris starts P6, ahead of Sainz's Ferrari,, Tsunoda was also very fast, and starts P8, and Vettel P10. Those positions will likely change depending on what the stewards decide.

Interesting scenario develops;

Gasly has been on quite a tear lately,,, performing VERY strongly on a regular basis. For those who are new to F-1, Gasly's team (Alpha Tauri), are a Red Bull sister team, and Gasly would desperately like to be promoted to the big team. If Gasly starts P-2 next to Lewis,,,, what do you think will be going through his mind as he comes into turn-1 with Lewis, when Perez is starting 11th????? A once in a lifetime career opportunity for Gasly by taking out Lewis??? If I've thought about it. you can bet your booty he has as well, and it won't be lost with Horner either.
 
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Bobby2shots said:
Gasly has been on quite a tear lately,,, performing VERY strongly on a regular basis. For those who are new to F-1, Gasly's team (Alpha Tauri), are a Red Bull sister team, and Gasly would desperately like to be promoted to the big team. If Gasly starts P-2 next to Lewis,,,, what do you think will be going through his mind as he comes into turn-1 with Lewis, when Perez is starting 11th????? A once in a lifetime career opportunity for Gasly by taking out Lewis??? If I've thought about it. you can bet your booty he has as well, and it won't be lost with Horner either.
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Hahaha I'm sure Horner, and Max for that matter, wouldn't mind this outcome. Gasly is indeed driving a solid season in the AT. I hope he will be given another chance in one of the major teams. I said it before, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up with Alpine.

Perez couldn't get close in Q2, even with soft tires. He said on the team radio that they went in the worst possible window, so perhaps he was struggling with traffic? He also said that apparently RB had a new method of getting the tires in the right window 🤷‍♂️.

And Hamilton's merc again being the fastest with 0.45sec. I'm really not sure where they suddenly have found the pace last couple of weekends. I'm having a hard time believing this is all engine.
 
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