I can still cut through paper towel if I raise my edge to deburr? I can't seem to get really sharp edges unless I raise my edge. At least not yetThe answer is *exactly* what @M1k3 replied here:
Thin geometry leading into the edge. Hopefully that goes without saying.
A finish that is not massively low. For instance; you can get dynamite kitchen knife edges off an SG500, but if a very a clean paper towel drop is what you’re looking for - it’s gonna be difficult.
But not too high either. When cutting a tomato you want some teeth on the edge to make the initial cut through the tough skin. But once you’ve done that, then cutting the rest of the soft, watery flesh is very easy. Paper towel otoh is consistently tough all the way the through the cut, so you really definitely do need that toothiness, because you’re continually needing to make the ‘initial cut’.
Deburr well on stones. If you leave some of the deburring for a leather strop to sort out, you’ll end up with quite a refined/polished/rounded edge from the leather. Try to do it well on your final stone so you only need to strop lightly on cotton or cardboard, and you’ll preserve more of the bite of finishing on a proper abrasive. If you strop on diamond or compound loaded leather though - I imagine it’s gonna make it very easy drop paper towel. At least in theory. I don’t do that kind of thing, so can’t tell you for sure.
I personally find it easier on certain types of natural stone - Washitas, Cotis, BBW, Turkish - than synths. Though I suspect that’s simply because I use them quite a lot, and I’m quite dialled into them and how they work. Which relates to another point, put succinctly by both @M1k3 and @stringer:
Sharpening a knife is quite exceptionally simple. We’re all doing exactly the same thing, but all in slightly different ways.
Watching stuff and reading stuff can be useful and interesting (I’ve certainly learned from both Mike and Stringer). But beyond a point; you can’t read or watch your way to being better at sharpening, you just have to do it. Over and over and over again. Until you find what works best for you.
Burr removal
- Thread starter hibbs00
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I can still cut through paper towel if I raise my edge to deburr? I can't seem to get really sharp edges unless I raise my edge. At least not yet
2 or 3 times now I have dulled the edge with a stone before sharpening like Cliff Stamp would do. I've noticed when I sharpen those times the edge seemed to be a little bit sharper than the times I've forgotten to dull the edge. Has anyone else noticed this? Is there a reason for it or does this happen to be coincidence?
Another term is “joining” or more correctly “jointing” the edge (cabinetry term for “making it flat”). Basically you use abrasive to cut the burr and/or fatigued metal off the edge. That gets you back down to “virgin” steel that’s hard and ready to take an edge.
Some folks advocate or demonstrate “jointing” on the edge of a glass. It’s nonsense, and it’s not actually jointing. It rolls the edge but does not abrade it off. You could potentially move to a stone and cut the rolled burr off but you could also straighten the burr, fool yourself that you’re sharp again, and then have the edge fail rather quickly. Stropping won’t really fix it.
Picture worth 1000 of my words
https://scienceofsharp.com/2014/10/30/dulling-on-glass/
Some folks call jointing a parlor trick. Some say it wastes steel. In my experience it works as advertised. Technically you’re wasting a little steel. Do it lightly on your last stone, and don’t sweat the small stuff.
Some folks advocate or demonstrate “jointing” on the edge of a glass. It’s nonsense, and it’s not actually jointing. It rolls the edge but does not abrade it off. You could potentially move to a stone and cut the rolled burr off but you could also straighten the burr, fool yourself that you’re sharp again, and then have the edge fail rather quickly. Stropping won’t really fix it.
Picture worth 1000 of my words
https://scienceofsharp.com/2014/10/30/dulling-on-glass/
Some folks call jointing a parlor trick. Some say it wastes steel. In my experience it works as advertised. Technically you’re wasting a little steel. Do it lightly on your last stone, and don’t sweat the small stuff.
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I do it before even beginning to sharpen. Cut the edge off and then start forming the new bevel on my highest stone
Cool, learn something new everyday.
Does it work better at the end of sharpening like Murray Carter does it?
Wow. On a little field sharpener and cheap pocket knife I cut off the edge, raised a burr on both sides, polished on a finer grit, cut the edge off again, only 2 very light passes, and then a couple light edge leading passes and got an edge in 5 mins that's just as good if not better than when I spend 20 mins on my water stones with a kitchen knife. I think I like this jointing method. Will have to try it on my water stones and kitchen knife tomorrow. Is jointing really this effective?
The 20th of April is an apt day to learn about jointing a blunt.
I'm that case maybe it was just luck haha. I'm blown away though
I figured a micro bevel would be easier to get rid of rather than a flat edge from the waiting room. Maybe that's why
Epic fail jointing on water stones. Cut the edge off before sharpening, got both burrs, moved to 1k polished the edges and tried jointing. Couldn't even cut the burr off. I could still feel it after 3 light passes. I tried to form the edge anyways light alternating leading passes an it wasn't dull but it was far from razor sharp. I don't know what went wrong but I ended up starting over on the 1k the way I usually do it
Gotta show that burr who’s boss.
New idea I will try tomorrow is kind of a mix of Cliff Stamp and Hap Stanley combined. Raise a burr on both sides, work up to my highest stone and polish, light stropping passes to balance any burr on the edge before cutting into the stone remove the burr and any weakened steel. Then I'll raise my angle, light leading passes to form the cutting apex again. Sounds good in my head. Anyone see any problems with it before trying?
Sounds like a waste of time and steel and abrasive to me. Don't fear the burr Boogeyman. Just accept that it will never be perfect but it's pretty easy to get to good enough.
This might belong in “unpopular opinions” but I’ll say it here: the tomato-ready “toothy edge” might, nine times out of ten, just be a tiny tenacious burr that happens to be well-attached and balanced down the middle of the apex; its micro-serrations derive from the very jointing, or ripping off, of the upper burr, leaving behind what Kraichuk calls the “burr root” to act as the new super-apex.
https://scienceofsharp.com/2021/06/15/dual-grit-sharpening/
Tired: deburring
Wired: euburring
When you see people cutting paper towel off of sub-1000 grit stones, it kind of shows that deburring is not as complicated as some fear.
I'm not doing that great with the paper towel challenge. Can't cut much so I'm doing something wrong. Just trying to see what it is so I can work on it
It's pretty much exactly what I've been doing except jointing right before I micro bevel. Just to see if that will help burr removal and any other weakened steel to keep new edge strong. Maybe that will help my paper towel cut haha. I hate being the worst at anything
You aren't the worst I guarantee it. A lot of people probably have the same challenges and questions that you do but just aren't brave enough to ask. Just sometimes less is more.
It isn't bad to try different things, but at some point you will just have to put in the hours to go from good to very good. The fine details in your technique probably don't matter much. You sound like you are getting good edges already, so your far from the worst at it.
Cutting paper towel isn't the best indicator of good edge. It's fun, but don't put too much stock in it.
I tried it just a little while ago. Jointing isn't my thing. I'm going to go back to what was producing good results already. I saw Hap Stanley on a channel (never a dull moment) I think that's the name. After his sharpening and jointing process some guy took the knife, laid a paper towel on the edge and blew and it cut the paper towel. I was amazed! I had to give it a shot trying his method haha. I have to keep starting over when I try his way though. I'm really interested in how Cliff Stamp would burr base sharpen. He says he cuts off the burr with the stone. Does anyone know how he does that exactly? That guy gets some great edges. I'm just no good at the plateau method so I'm curious how he used to get his edges before discovering that.
myguidingmoonlight
Senior Member
Not the person you were asking, but I'll answer as one who messed up my own nails testing edges.
If by gently sliding my nail over the edge and the edge grabs onto the nail, seemingly not wanting to let it slide easily, I know that section of the edge is toothy and sharp enough for my liking. If the nail just slides over the top with little resistance, you might need more work on that section of the edge to establish a proper Apex.
If by gently sliding my nail over the edge and the edge grabs onto the nail, seemingly not wanting to let it slide easily, I know that section of the edge is toothy and sharp enough for my liking. If the nail just slides over the top with little resistance, you might need more work on that section of the edge to establish a proper Apex.
I had heard by running your nail up the edge you want it smooth to tell you the burr has been removed and if it doesn't want to slice, the burr is still there.
Are you talking about the edge going into you nail at an angle?
myguidingmoonlight
Senior Member
Edge 90 degree to nail, slide it, if that part of the edge you're testing is properly apexed and sharp, it will seem to resist your effort to slide and dig into your nail, creating that 'toothy' feeling.
If the the nail just glides over it, even with some pressure, that part of the edge isn't properly apexed and not sharp as it can be. In other words, if it's smooth, it's not toothy, and probably not sharp either - because the Apex is probably rounded at that area.
Ok are you sliding it like you're trying to slice the nail or are you sliding it to the left or right, perpendicular to the direction of the blade?
Sorry, I'm confused, trying to make sure I understand completely
Bico Doce
aka Big Dice / Bocce Ballz / Big Douche
You are trying to slide the edge towards the cuticle. The sharper the edge the shallower of an angle will bite into the nail and not slide
myguidingmoonlight
Senior Member
Jon of Japanese Knife Imports has a video about nail edge-testing if you want some visualization.
Bico Doce
aka Big Dice / Bocce Ballz / Big Douche
Good tests as well from one of the best. Obviously what I said before is not one of these but it’s one that I stand by for a gauging a quality edge in addition to what’s been said
I think yours is the one that I've done to test sharpness.
I watched neeves knives and he will lightly drag his nail along the whole edge and said it should be smooth. Seems different than this video but I'll go with the tests from the video. Idk how good or how much neeves knows but I know Jon knows his stuff. Can't go wrong listening to him
