Cut Brooklyn: Opinions?

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If by insular, you mean the forums are unwilling to try new products, then I'd disagree. The forums are always looking for the next great thing. In the past year that has brought us the DT ITK and the Konsuke HD knives. Geshin Hide could be the next darling of the forum.

Just because Cut Brooklyn hasn't been a forum favorite doesn't mean its not a good knife. People on the forums need an excuse and really not much of one, to try out a new maker. The excuse could be price point, steel, or makers reputation.

These criteria/excuses kept the forums from early on recognizing that Kramer's were an exceptional knife. Obviously Bob didn't need the forums approval for success.

Jay
 
jaybett said:
If by insular, you mean the forums are unwilling to try new products, then I'd disagree. The forums are always looking for the next great thing. In the past year that has brought us the DT ITK and the Konsuke HD knives. Geshin Hide could be the next darling of the forum.

Just because Cut Brooklyn hasn't been a forum favorite doesn't mean its not a good knife. People on the forums need an excuse and really not much of one, to try out a new maker. The excuse could be price point, steel, or makers reputation.

These criteria/excuses kept the forums from early on recognizing that Kramer's were an exceptional knife. Obviously Bob didn't need the forums approval for success.

Jay
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+1 I couldn't agree more. After more than $15000 in kitchen knife purchases, I don't need a great reason. Just a little nudging.
 
Before Japanese knives were on my radar I learned about Joel's knives when reading a blog by a Top Chef finalist who raved about it.

I'm reasonably familiar with the basic profile of the people who buy Joel's knives and generally speaking we're unlikely to see them here.

He appears to be a genuinely great guy who is passionate about making every knife his best. Joel sells and recommends knives by other makers. His waiting list is long, the few knives he makes on spec sell quickly and his production knives are in demand before they've hit the shelves. There's nothing to gain by offering knives for evaluation here or anywhere else.

I'd love to visit his shop though.
 
jaybett said:
...

These criteria/excuses kept the forums from early on recognizing that Kramer's were an exceptional knife. Obviously Bob didn't need the forums approval for success.

Jay
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I have heard about Kramer knives on KF. I know of 6+ people who own one or more. Except for Scott, they didn't sell and are happy with their purchase (Adam sold but with a great regret, I think).

Now, I finally got to inspected a Kramer knife up close and have seen his knife production video. Here is my take on it. Kramer knives are very good knvies. You get a whole package - steel, heat treat, grind, finish and an exceptionally crated handle. I am pretty immune to Bob Kramer marketing appeal, so I evaluated the knife based only on these criteria. What I have seen tells me that Bob is a skilled craftsman. Is he better than other top maker here in the US? I doubt he is as a craftsman. But he has done all right things to promote his work, so in that sense, he is better.

I hope that you guys take a little bit more objective view on this matter - evaluate knives on their merits. As rockbox pointed out, people buy from people they like, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the product they sell is exceptional.

My issues with CB knife is handle (on both lines), steel choice, grind (thickness), and lack of in-house heat treatment. For somebody as passionate about knife-making as Joel is claimed to be, he doesn't seem to go a traditional route - learning from others. So that puts him in a permanent B-maker category in my book. (I personally find heat treating the most fascinating of all processes in knife-making. B&W photography and cooking are the closest I could think of to HT, where even tiny manipulation can alter the outcome)

When you start blurring lines between A and B, then what is A? Why strive for it, when you can pay and play? And that is really a point I have been making for some time now.

Getting feedback from people who are more demanding and less patronizing is a good way to assess if you are doing something right. I think a maker has more to gain.

M
 
I don't have on but I have seen a few, did not like the ones I have seen. I'd say 1 step lower then mid tec, that's saying the DT ITK is a mid tec. Kind of heavy and did not feel right in the hand. I don't care much for the looks.
 
Any professional marketeers out there? Kill yourself.
 
C'mon Salty! I've always liked Britney Spears, Jessica Simpson and Justi...oh...never mind. I thought you wrote Mouseketeers! :wink:
 
Salty dog said:
Any professional marketeers out there? Kill yourself.
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Define marketeer. Everyone has to market their product or no one would know about them. That is why knife makers go to knife shows and post pictures of their knives on the internet. It doesn't matter if you have a cure for cancer if no one knows about it.

If you are talking about people that who cares more about creating hype than product, I don't personally care for them either. However, I do respect that skill to a certain degree.
 
I say there's nothing wrong with making knives without suffering over every detail--someone has to make the entry-level knives, the Tojiros and Tanakas of the world. But I can't figure out why the American equivalent of a Moritaka costs 5 times as much. That's not a question for Joel, but for the general public. He charges that because that is how much people are willing to pay him for them. Why do line cooks want to give him a week's pay when a day's would buy a Tojiro--thinner, flatter, VG-10. It should be at least twice the knife, cause it's 7x the price!

I love Joel's business though. He seems a consummate knife guy, and I do envy his job.


*edit* that may have come out wrong. What I meant was that he clearly is making exactly the product people want, and for many this is their dream knife. I just don't understand why.
 
I was at the NYC knife show when the Kramer article came out in the New Yorker. The knifemakers were practically dancing in the streets over the thought that the story would convince people not normally associated with high end knives that the sky was the limit price wise on a handmade blade. As in you could judge performance by price and anyone with lots of money couldn't live without $1000+ kitchen knife.
Frankly, many knifemakers don't like knowledgeable knife users much. They would rather have their customers rich and unschooled.
Sounds like Joel is tapping that market very well.
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
The last time I checked, Cut Brooklyn used steel more suitable for hunting and field knives, than kitchen knives.

One style handle. Too thin IMO

M
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For the journeyman line he uses 1095. I know that 10905 steel has been around for ages, but does anyone make kitchen knives out of it? It might be that that is a good steel for that forced-patina look he is going for, but is 1095 one of these steels better for hunting knives?

k.
 
1095 was the standard carbon steel for production kitchen and meat packing knives for many years. Ontario still uses it for the Old Hickory line and I'm pretty sure Russell Harrington uses it in their Dexter and Green River Lines.
 
1095 is fine for kitchen knives. It's just a 0.95% carbon steel, like how White steel is 1.3% carbon steel. Smaller carbides and carbide volume than White steel. Also the high carbon of White steel means it can have much more retained austenite (=bad).
 
I don't understand why you guys are opposed to out sourcing heat treatment to people who specialize in it. Heat treating is not voodoo it's science. If you do it in house, more power to you but I would never knock someone for not doing it in-house. Matter of fact I would be more suspect of those that do it in-house. How do I know they know what they are doing? (from what I have seen, the custom makers on here such as Del, Butch, etc. do know what they are doing).I would definitely spend $300, $600, $1000 on a knife sent to a heat treat shop before I spent that kind of money on a knife from someone who is just starting out and learning as they go.

-AJ
 
I agree AJ. If you are good and can do the heat treating, more power to you, but even Dave outsourced his first batch of knives for heat treating and I am not complaining about my Martell knife being mid-tech.

k.
 
That is true, but there is satisfaction of learning a new skill with some guidance from more established makers, trial-and-error and testing your work over and over again. Some of the best makers in US offer classes and there is plenty of (good) free advice on forums from the cream of the crop in knife-making world.

Heat treat is not a vodoo science - you get better as you do and constantly check and evaluate your work. Hardness testers. LN, HT kilns are readily available.

As a knife maker, you should be able to evaluate your work for hardness, retained austenites, sharpness and use it as a feedback on your HT. I am not saying that everybody who does HT on their own does it better then commercial heat treatment, I am saying that those who are serious about knife making, should put in time and effort to learn to do it themselves. In-house heat treatment is essential to a complete product. I feel just as strong about hand sharpening.

M

PS: I am pretty sure Dave will do heat treatment himself very soon.
 
so what about sending out knives for heat treatment makes your knives mid tech.....that's the stupidest thing i ever heard.....and when did eevryone become a steel snob here?.....what's wrong with 1095....ohh wait i know-52100 is a miracle steel.....maybe if i buy a 52100 knife i can be one of the chosen ones finally.....ryan
 
LOL. What's wrong about being a snob when you are expected to shell this kind of coin? 52100 is probably the best steel out there.
 
There is nothing "wrong" with 1095, but if you want maximum performance in a kitchen knife it is well down the list of carbon steels as far ad edge durability and other characteristics are concerned. Even lowly O1 is superior and it doesn't cost much either. It's not snobbery, it's just common sense. Look at the composition of the steel and tell me why 1095 is a good choice for a $600 knife.
 
I still say it's not just what's in the steel it's what's done with it as well that effects the outcome. What if Bill Burke made a 1095 knife tomorrow? Would it sell? I bet it would and I also bet it'd work pretty damn good too. :)
 
For myself I chose to outsource the heat treat for a couple of reasons.

1. It leaves me with zero questions, I removed a variable.

2. It makes financial sense.


In the short term this works out better for me but there's no doubt that I'll play with my own heat treat eventually just like I'll one day forge too but that day isn't today.
 
Exactly--it makes financial sense. For you to meet a price point. You had a number, I am sure, that was the cap of what(in your professional opinion) people would pay.

It's not just about the margin--materials, sweat equity and time vs profit--and it's not 100% about performance. It's a mixture of both plus the x-factor that comes with having a knife made in a way that makes the owner feel good about owning it. "My line knife was made with a space-age powder steel and quenched in liquid nitrogen" or "My mezzaluna is Tamahagane made from Western Alpine Magnetite and quenched in First Pressing Olive Oil". People pay for this, even when they buy "100% German Steel!" at Bed Bath and Beyond, or any knife with a warranty. I can see that his knives have performance people want--or else they wouldn't sell at all. I just don't see what the allure is of a 1095 knife, with a(presumably) great HT, a resin handle, ground to shape. I can easily see why someone would fill a pro kitchen with them, or buy one because they just moved out of their parent's house and need a good knife. But that price puts both of those scenarios into the unrealistic range. That's the price of a knife you buy that you just love to hold, and for many regular joes, $600 on one knife is an extravagant, end-up-in-the-doghouse, once-in-a-lifetime purchase. Imagine if you lost or broke it, it's like the cost of a mid-range car repair!

I do not fault Joel for this, and I'm not being a steel snob in suggesting that there are better performing steels for knives. What I am wondering is what is it about simple, monocolor handles, ultra pointy blades, a Brooklynite grinding them down, factory HT of plain-jane steel that makes people love it?

You know, the $130 Henckels(the expensive one) is "upgraded" from a plain, traditional black handle to a rubber comfort grip. :scratchhead:
 
Matter of perspective. If I look at chemistry, this white steel is just as Ho hum as 1095, yet it has quite a cult following.

-AJ
 
sudsy9977 said:
so what about sending out knives for heat treatment makes your knives mid tech.....that's the stupidest thing i ever heard.....and when did eevryone become a steel snob here?.....what's wrong with 1095....ohh wait i know-52100 is a miracle steel.....maybe if i buy a 52100 knife i can be one of the chosen ones finally.....ryan
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Wow, that sounds incredibly condescending to this crowd. We talk about this stuff in minute detail every day, to say we are steel snobs is to ignore the fact we spend an inordinate amount of time disecting topics that 99.9% of the world doesn't care about. We are snobs...knife, handle, steel, and all. If anyone should know that, it should be a veteran like you.
 
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