Dispelling Myths

[JBroida]

I have a question that's been bugging me for a while:

For traditional Japanese, single beveled carbon steel knives, why do people use such a reactive steel for the jigane? Wouldn't it make sense to use a stainless steel for the jigane and keep, say, white #2 for the hagane? It would seem like the most "Duh" thing to do, but for some reason it's just not done. I'm assuming I'm totally missing a point on how these knives are made...

i can give a few reasons...

one, stainless and carbon are hard to put together and generally require large equipment and/or massive amounts of force (not to mention the skill level involved). Two, the soft iron is used because it is easy to sharpen, makes blade repair and straitening easier, is readily available, was traditionally used, and cost effective. And three, many people associate the way a knife is kept by the chef with that chefs ability to work clean etc. Carbon knives force this habit and even to this day in japan many people look at chefs who use stainless single bevel knives as a joke (not to say there arent awesome stainless single bevel knives out there, but its an uphill battle against a long standing stigma).

 

[Cutty Sharp]

... many people associate the way a knife is kept by the chef with that chefs ability to work clean etc. Carbon knives force this habit and even to this day in japan many people look at chefs who use stainless single bevel knives as a joke (not to say there arent awesome stainless single bevel knives out there, but its an uphill battle against a long standing stigma).

Whew - great observation! Very interesting.

 

[phan1]

Whew - great observation! Very interesting.

Yeah it gets pretty intense. I've been in some sushi bars where guys don't even let their knives patina, and their carbon knives look pristine every second of every day. Lots of AJAX and polishing their knives down with a cork. I swear these guys spend about 40 minutes taking care of their knives every day.

 

[Cutty Sharp]

Yeah it gets pretty intense. I've been in some sushi bars where guys don't even let their knives patina, and their carbon knives look pristine every second of every day. Lots of AJAX and polishing their knives down with a cork. I swear these guys spend about 40 minutes taking care of their knives every day.

I take it you're living there?

This would make sense, I guess, as I've seen decades-old, retired blades, severly thinned and sharpened down, yet still surprisingly silver and shiny.

 

[bieniek]

i think its a pain to thin down soft stainless...

 

[Messy Jesse]

How about the myth that bigger is better when I comes to knife length? Guys are always recommending getting the longest blade you can, but I find that most times, a really sharp, nimble shorter blade works better. And whenever I see old sushi guys they always seem to be using shorter blades...

 

[maxim]

In EU i tend to sell much smaller knives not over 210mm and yeah in Japanese sushi bars or restaurants i have only seen smaller blades 180mm or 210 Yanagi.
I my self use only under 210 blades even when i was pro, i don't know its just feels more comfy even if i chop larger things

 

[stevenStefano]

How about the myth that bigger is better when I comes to knife length? Guys are always recommending getting the longest blade you can, but I find that most times, a really sharp, nimble shorter blade works better. And whenever I see old sushi guys they always seem to be using shorter blades...

I wouldn't say that is a myth, just some people have their own preferences

 

[knyfeknerd]

I wouldn't say that is a myth, just some people have their own preferences

+1
I used to be a 190-210 size user. I couldn't understand how anyone could comfortably wield a 270 blade until I actually got one. It took a little getting used to, but having the ability to knock out large prep quickly is a huge time-saver. I' be gotten rid of my smaller gyutos because I just don't use them anymore. Totally a personal preference.

 

[stevenStefano]

If I could do it all again I'd only buy 270s from the very start

 

[Cutty Sharp]

So much of it has to do with the space confines you have to work in, I think.

 

[Messy Jesse]

Or the type of prep you're doing. Everyone talks about a 270 smashing through heaps of this or boxes of that... I work in a small, detail focused kitchen where you might only have to cut up one of this or 2 of these, you know?

 

[Sara@JKI]

Putting a lot of effort in cleanliness is such a normal part of Japanese culture... For instance, school kids will have "cleaning time" everyday at school, and they are taking care of their class rooms, bathrooms, school yard, gyms, corridors, stairs and everything. We come from this type of environment where being clean and working clean is normal, and the opposite is quite shocking and even unforgivable... A lot of people, including myself, have an expectation for chefs cooking traditional Japanese food to be able to take good care of their own knives and other tools. We also read and watch a lot about chefs, and it's a common knowledge among us that anyone call themselves "professional" should take a pride in their tools and maintain them well.

 

[Vertigo]

Or the type of prep you're doing. Everyone talks about a 270 smashing through heaps of this or boxes of that... I work in a small, detail focused kitchen where you might only have to cut up one of this or 2 of these, you know?

The size of the knife doesn't preclude you from focusing on detail. I peel fruit in hand and cube avocados in the skin with a 270mm, though I definitely wouldn't say that "bigger is always better." It's all about being comfortable and having the right tool for the job. At home I'm happy using a 210 (unless I'm slicing meats), but my kitchen is tiny, usually overcrowded, and I'm never in a hurry. At work though, when I see a new cook making gallons of mirepoix with a 6" santoku, doing a rib or two of celery at a time... well, then it's time to train them in being comfortable with something bigger.

 

[MadMel]

Or the type of prep you're doing. Everyone talks about a 270 smashing through heaps of this or boxes of that... I work in a small, detail focused kitchen where you might only have to cut up one of this or 2 of these, you know?

Small, detail focus. Marque or Sepia? I know there are a few others out there but these spring immediately to mind.

 

[phan1]

I got another myth-buster type of question:

Should the edge on a usuba really be DEAD FLAT? I always prefer a curve (sometimes even a big curve actually). Because I swear I've never seen any kitchen cutting board that's dead flat either. I'm often stuck using the side of the cutting board because the middle craters in and I can't cut through anything. Hugely annoying! I don't see how anybody could use a dead flat usuba...

 

[SameGuy]

+1
I used to be a 190-210 size user. I couldn't understand how anyone could comfortably wield a 270 blade until I actually got one. It took a little getting used to, but having the ability to knock out large prep quickly is a huge time-saver. I' be gotten rid of my smaller gyutos because I just don't use them anymore. Totally a personal preference.

This, except I'm not a pro. Heck, I'm not even very advanced, though I've been cooking since before I could ride a bike. I've only been serious about knives and knife skills for a short time (though I've owned good German and French carbon for 20 years or so), and the move from sub-nine-inch blades up to the 270s and 300s was a revelation. I'm not faster, but I'm definitely better.

 

[JBroida]

I got another myth-buster type of question:

Should the edge on a usuba really be DEAD FLAT? I always prefer a curve (sometimes even a big curve actually). Because I swear I've never seen any kitchen cutting board that's dead flat either. I'm often stuck using the side of the cutting board because the middle craters in and I can't cut through anything. Hugely annoying! I don't see how anybody could use a dead flat usuba...

some chefs have a very gentle curve at the last centimeter or so of the tip on kamagata usuba, but the rest of the edge is flat.

 

[knyfeknerd]

some chefs have a very gentle curve at the last centimeter or so of the tip on kamagata usuba, but the rest of the edge is flat.

Still want to see pics of yours. No, we haven't forgotten.

 

[JBroida]

here's one of mine... 180mm blue #2 steel

 

[knyfeknerd]

Thanks Jon, I've wondered about this. The tip on mine chips off easily every time. I'm going to give this a shot next time I sharpen. Thanks again for a picture to reference.

 

[JBroida]

you can see its just slight, right?

 

[knyfeknerd]

you can see its just slight, right?

It actually is a little more pronounced than I expected. I may start out even smaller than this.

 

[SameGuy]

私は漢字が読めません。

Brand?

 

[JBroida]

tsukiji masamoto... my first kamagata usuba... 180mm in blue #2

Its also engraved with the name of the restaurant i worked at in Japan

 

[SameGuy]

Ah, so desu. Arigato gosaimasu [almost the extent of my Japanese]...

 

[schanop]

Jon,

I drew a line on your photo. Is the gap between the line and the edge a good representative of the actual knife?

PS. what happened to your legs? :clown:

 

[SameGuy]

He's trying out for the South Afrikan track team.

 

[JBroida]

no... i think there's some funky angle thing going on with how i was holding the knife... its just a bit less than it looks there

 

[schanop]

OK get it. Could be your lens' barrel distortion.