Dispelling Myths

[phan1]

OK, here's another question:

In Japanese culture, is a patina acceptable on a knife or is it considered undesirable? Like I said, I've been around some hardcore guys who have carbon knives that are kept pristine all the time. I always have some patina on my knife, particularly on ura, where it never makes contact with a stone.

 

[JBroida]

no patina in japan... people think of it as dirty

 

[SameGuy]

After seeing some really shiny knives lately, I'm not only tempted to scrub off the patina (which I do like), but to have a go at the machine finish on my knives with wet papers (à la Salty).

 

[maxim]

Hmm Jon do you maybe mean in Pro restaurants ? Corse i have seen a lot of patinet knives in Japan, home kitchens, markets etc..

no patina in japan... people think of it as dirty

 

[Cutty Sharp]

Hmm Jon do you maybe mean in Pro restaurants ? Corse i have seen a lot of patinet knives in Japan, home kitchens, markets etc..

Me too, actually. I think he must mean - in particular - sushi bars and resto kitchens open to public view.

 

[JBroida]

yeah... sorry about that.

 

[Sara@JKI]

i think patina often happens to knives used in home kitchens... for instance, my mom's have patina on them. but it doesn't mean it's a "preferable" for most home cooks either. My mom (and my relatives and friends) would rather have shiny knives and don't set patina on knives if it weren't too much of trouble. I've never seen anyone, pros and non-pros, develop patina intentionally.

 

[Benuser]

If you deal with a stinking SK-4 you really have no choice, other than forcing a patina.

 

[John Harper]

Hi JBroida,

However, you will see many chefs in Japan (the vast majority) use microbevels (koba) on their knives.

Allow me to introduce myself. Though I am new to this forum, I have been lurking for a while and was impressed by the many excellent threads, this one included. I am an enthusiastic sharpener, made a few knives, favour lasers over heavier blades, like my steels hard and prefer micro bevels over simple edges.

Did you ever get to measure or estimate the angle of Koba on single bevel Yanagis, Usubas and Debas that the pros use with top end knives? And how about domestic users?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Cheers
John

 

[eto]

Welcome to the forums.

 

[JBroida]

Hi JBroida,



Allow me to introduce myself. Though I am new to this forum, I have been lurking for a while and was impressed by the many excellent threads, this one included. I am an enthusiastic sharpener, made a few knives, favour lasers over heavier blades, like my steels hard and prefer micro bevels over simple edges.

Did you ever get to measure or estimate the angle of Koba on single bevel Yanagis, Usubas and Debas that the pros use with top end knives? And how about domestic users?

Thanks in advance for your reply.

Cheers
John

sure... in my experience koba are generally around 30-45 degrees

 

[John Harper]

Hi JBroida,

Thank you.

Something else: You mention that the Japanese have a general aversion to patina on their knives - How do they cope with those that are sold with a hammered black oxide coating or dark etched to reveal the layered steel? Or are these solely made for export?

Cheers
John

 

[JBroida]

you dont see kurouchi knives in professional kitchens that often in general (much more often in home kitchens), and etched damascus tends to not be as popular in Japan in general.

 

[John Harper]

Hi JBroida,

Again many thanks for your invaluable reply and excellent thread.

Cheers
John

 

[JBroida]

glad to be of help

 

[DerSnap]

lol

Truth: Most japanese people dont even know the name of the style of knife they use. Nakiri, santoku, and petty are most common (in the 165mm size and under) as is deba. Also, lately, german knives have become popular in home kitchens for ease of care and lack of skill required to be able to be used. Very few people know how to sharpen. Most people dont even know a lot of the vocabulary we use here on a daily basis (uraoshi, kamagata usuba, koba, machi, etc.)

The vast majority of what we talk about here are professional knives used in professional kitchens in japan or knives specifically designed for the western market.

There is a WMF store here in Dresden who sells their kitchen/house stuff amongst German/Miyabi knives. They hired a special Japanese lady to sell the German knives because most the customers are from Japan coming here for the Zwilling knives. I talked to her and the Miyabi knives they are not interested in very much, but rather the typical 4-5 stars.

 

[banjo1071]

Same here
Japanese tourists buying lots and lots of german buttersteel productin knives (eg Zwilling or Forschner)....

 

[XooMG]

This is a question a bit between some of the other topics mentioned...

I get that kurouchi knives are rare in pro kitchens and more common in home use. I also gathered a lot of home cooks are not really eager to throw big money at kitchen knives.

What placement would a brand like Takeda or other, even more expensive kurouchi knives have in the Japanese domestic market, or have they mostly found sales in export markets? Is the tool enthusiast niche strong enough?

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Dam, lefty/Lucretia/Boom/Edipisreeks/Zwiefel/mrmmms/stereo.pete I wish somebody told that to me some $5,000 ago. ;-)

I also gathered a lot of home cooks are not really eager to throw big money at kitchen knives.

 

[Anton]

Same here
Japanese tourists buying lots and lots of german buttersteel productin knives (eg Zwilling or Forschner)....

Could it also be that this day an age of IPHONE's and very good design there's no room for simple HO wood handles...?

Or maybe Patina is just "out"