Does Chan Chi Kee/CCK still exist?

[foody518]

If you want to compare CCK to something easy, it would be Shibazi. I tend to like them better than than CCK but it is not by anything major.

What aspects of Shibazi do you prefer vs CCK?

 

[Kamelion]

"All purpose" means being able to handle chicken, waterfowl and large fish bones along with vegetables in China. I haven't had any problems with my larger CCK multi-purpose knives doing that. You are not cooking Chinese if you aren't leaving a lot of bone in many recipes. I just bought a Sugimoto No. 7 that was billed as an all purpose clever. It arrived today and while it is certainly a fairly heavy knife, its edge looks too thin for even chicken bone to me. So do I risk it? It isn't like I don't have a lot of real Chinese knives that can do the job.

As far as I have understood, the „Kitchen Choppers“, 12** series, that are considered the all-purpose cai daos, do not have a very much thinner edge, which means that you can still not really chop a chicken for example. Therefore, the thin slicers are almost as all-purpos:y, and for bones you have the Kau Kong, 14** series.

In the forums, you also very seldom read anything about the 12** series, but if you or anyone else has some info or experience, it would be very interesting indeed.

 

[Kamelion]

Sorry... I'm not sure to be honest.. wasn't really into Chinese cleavers until recently.. when is your friend going? I think their au store is on holidays till next week.. they own the property so they don't need to open on public holidays

I think I will buy from both though when I go back to Hk month

My friend goes next week. Will probably go for CCK this time. Not quite sure about the models yet.

 

[Noodle Soup]

What aspects of Shibazi do you prefer vs CCK?

I feel pro grade Shibazi cleavers have just a little bit better fit and finish but it really isn't that much. Probably me just being fickly.

 

[Noodle Soup]

As far as I have understood, the „Kitchen Choppers“, 12** series, that are considered the all-purpose cai daos, do not have a very much thinner edge, which means that you can still not really chop a chicken for example. Therefore, the thin slicers are almost as all-purpos:y, and for bones you have the Kau Kong, 14** series.

In the forums, you also very seldom read anything about the 12** series, but if you or anyone else has some info or experience, it would be very interesting indeed.

You don't need a Kau Kong size cleaver for chopping chicken. Using the heel of a good medium weight model works fine.

 

[foody518]

I feel pro grade Shibazi cleavers have just a little bit better fit and finish but it really isn't that much. Probably me just being fickly.

Thanks! Similar thickness/thinness behind the edge (for the kitchen slicer types)?

 

[Noodle Soup]

I would say yes but I would have to dig both out and lay them side by side to check. I rotate cleavers pretty often. The last Shibazi I was using was a small carbon model like the CCK everyone likes. Worked fine for me. And I have a large, pro model medium weight stainless Shebazi that has chopped a lot of chicken bone. It is pretty common for medium weight cleavers sold in China to have a line etched 2 or 3 inches up the blade that states in Chinese "chop bone behind this mark and slice food in front."

 

[Kamelion]

You don't need a Kau Kong size cleaver for chopping chicken. Using the heel of a good medium weight model works fine.

Ah, and by good medium weight you mean the 12** series? The slicers are probably too thin, aren’t they? And for even thicker bones

Do you own such a medium model, and in that case, which?

 

[Noodle Soup]

looking at Chefs Mall, that appears to be the 19-- series of cleavers.

"Cleaver in chinese we call Caidao, in english call Vegetable Knife, Vegetable Chopper."

"Caidao means that you can use this knife to handle everything in your kitchen. It is designed to uses the front of blade to slice vegetables, meats, the rear blade to chop small bones, like chicken bones, spareribs etc, of course, not for big bones."

Chefs Mall is still my favorite source for CCK cleavers.

 

[Kamelion]

looking at Chefs Mall, that appears to be the 19-- series of cleavers.

"Cleaver in chinese we call Caidao, in english call Vegetable Knife, Vegetable Chopper."

"Caidao means that you can use this knife to handle everything in your kitchen. It is designed to uses the front of blade to slice vegetables, meats, the rear blade to chop small bones, like chicken bones, spareribs etc, of course, not for big bones."

Chefs Mall is still my favorite source for CCK cleavers.

Thanks, Noodle Soup. Interestingly, according to the CCK website, this cleaver is the only series that does not exist in carbon steel version. Is yours also stainless? And how is weight/thickness etc, compared to the vegetable slicers?

Edit: Okay, the duck slicer also only comes in stainless, it seems

 

[Kamelion]

After reading up a bit more on Chinese fora, I think I have cracked one clue: when it says „kitchen“ slicer/chopper/cleaver etcetera, this only means: restaurant style/large one. Thus, the 12** series is the restaurant/large version of the 190*/180* series; the 11** series is the restaurant/large version of the 13 series.

Now, this clarifyes it a bit for me at least.

 

[Kamelion]

Did the same thing at an asian supermarket where they sold CCK cleavers.
The reply was:
'Why do you want a cleaver that rusts?'
So i ended up not buying any cleavers, because they didn't have any CCK 1301/1302/1303.

That really is a bit strange, as if rusting knives were only a gimmick for tourists? I know for a fact that several high-level Chinese chefs use carbon steel, and besides why whould CCK at all manufacture them then?

 

[XooMG]

That really is a bit strange, as if rusting knives were only a gimmick for tourists? I know for a fact that several high-level Chinese chefs use carbon steel, and besides why whould CCK at all manufacture them then?

Because to most nonprofessional buyers who get knives from supermarkets, carbon makes little sense.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Thanks, Noodle Soup. Interestingly, according to the CCK website, this cleaver is the only series that does not exist in carbon steel version. Is yours also stainless? And how is weight/thickness etc, compared to the vegetable slicers?

Edit: Okay, the duck slicer also only comes in stainless, it seems

yes but the carbon-stainless thing isn't a big deal to me.

 

[Noodle Soup]

My one and only duck slicer is a carbon steel CCK I bought in the Seattle's "International District" (China town) about 25 years ago. I guess they must have dropped carbon since then.

 

[Kamelion]

My one and only duck slicer is a carbon steel CCK I bought in the Seattle's "International District" (China town) about 25 years ago. I guess they must have dropped carbon since then.

Ah, cool!

But the medium-thin/thick cleaver you have, how thin/thick is it, and whats the weight? Which model? How does it compare to the slicers, if you happen to know these?

 

[ynot1985]

Damn.. I wish I have a carbon duck slicer.. I have a stainless steel one and I'm a big fan of this knife

 

[Sillywizard]

@ynot1985: In what capacity and extent do you use a duck knife? I don't dress or prep duck beyond breast file's, the same goes for most poultry now days.

@Kamelion: I prefer a height of 9.5 cm - 10 cm for my Chinese chef knives, good blade height is important. The length of my knives range from 18 cm - 23 cm. longer than that feels cumbersome in a home kitchen environment; shorter than that feels...short.
I have a "medium" slicer, it's 2 mm thick at the spine, but I much prefer the thinner slicers, they perform much better. I am predominately a push-cutter, except onions, then I'm a slice-n-dice chopper.

 

[ynot1985]

@ynot1985: In what capacity and extent do you use a duck knife? I don't dress or prep duck beyond breast file's, the same goes for most poultry now days.

@Kamelion: I prefer a height of 9.5 cm - 10 cm for my Chinese chef knives, good blade height is important. The length of my knives range from 18 cm - 23 cm. longer than that feels cumbersome in a home kitchen environment; shorter than that feels...short.
I have a "medium" slicer, it's 2 mm thick at the spine, but I much prefer the thinner slicers, they perform much better. I am predominately a push-cutter, except onions, then I'm a slice-n-dice chopper.

Honestly, I brought the duck knife randomly at CCK one year.. all my family uses the big vegetable knives which I find big .. so I saw this at CCK and brought it.. the old man at the counter didn't ask me what I wanted it for so I'm just using it as a Nakiri nowadays..works well.. I did ask him if they had a heavier version as the stainless one is really light but he said no

 

[Kamelion]

@ynot1985: In what capacity and extent do you use a duck knife? I don't dress or prep duck beyond breast file's, the same goes for most poultry now days.

@Kamelion: I prefer a height of 9.5 cm - 10 cm for my Chinese chef knives, good blade height is important. The length of my knives range from 18 cm - 23 cm. longer than that feels cumbersome in a home kitchen environment; shorter than that feels...short.
I have a "medium" slicer, it's 2 mm thick at the spine, but I much prefer the thinner slicers, they perform much better. I am predominately a push-cutter, except onions, then I'm a slice-n-dice chopper.

Thanks for the info, Sillywizard. The Chinese often talk about their cai daos as being all-rounders, usable for smacking garlic and ginger flat, and chopping through lighter chicken and fish bones. Do you think the thin cleavers can do this well, because I'm guessing they are talking about the medium thin ones?

 

[Kamelion]

You don't need a Kau Kong size cleaver for chopping chicken. Using the heel of a good medium weight model works fine.

@Noodle Soup: Could you please tell me the dimensions, weight and possibly model number of your medium cleavers? And are they a bit thicker close to the handle, than at the edge? Would be highly appreciated!

 

[Kamelion]

By the way, would you guys say that Martin Yan uses a thin 13**-style or a medium 190*/180*-style cleaver in general, and in for example [video=youtube;5-UUWWig-pU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-UUWWig-pU[/video]?

Also, there is—or were—a cleaver that carried his name. Anyone used or seen this, and could say anything about model, thickness etc.

 

[Kamelion]

Or maybe this video: [video=youtube;8ciBUPOebWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ciBUPOebWU[/video]

To me, it actually looks pretty thin? Also, look here and here.

The blade dimensions are—I have found out—20 × 8,7 cm (middle of the blade). Pretty small, one must say.

 

[Noodle Soup]

Honestly, I brought the duck knife randomly at CCK one year.. all my family uses the big vegetable knives which I find big .. so I saw this at CCK and brought it.. the old man at the counter didn't ask me what I wanted it for so I'm just using it as a Nakiri nowadays..works well.. I did ask him if they had a heavier version as the stainless one is really light but he said no

That was me too. I didn't know what a duck knife was so I used mine as a Chinese version of a nakiri. The guy in the Chinese grocery story pretty much told me that was what it was for too. When we got to talking, I found he went to high school with Al Mar. Small world, Al was a good friend.

 

[Sillywizard]

Thanks for the info, Sillywizard. The Chinese often talk about their cai daos as being all-rounders, usable for smacking garlic and ginger flat, and chopping through lighter chicken and fish bones. Do you think the thin cleavers can do this well, because I'm guessing they are talking about the medium thin ones?

The medium cleaver is a good compromise, it will slice and dice any and all vegetables, as well as fish and poultry bones and boneless meats. Works marvelous in a standard home environment.
However, when it comes to most vegetables and boneless meats, one may feel that a few tenths of a millimeter thinner would be perfect for achieving that extra fine delicate work that no normal person would even consider wasting time on at home.

Once again, if your friend has the space and weight allowance, ask him/her to buy you a medium slicer too (or pay the postage to have them all sent home to you). Whatever you choose not to keep, can be given away to family and/or friends, or sold for at least the cost of purchase+postage, problem solved!

 

[Kamelion]

The medium cleaver is a good compromise, it will slice and dice any and all vegetables, as well as fish and poultry bones and boneless meats. Works marvelous in a standard home environment.
However, when it comes to most vegetables and boneless meats, one may feel that a few tenths of a millimeter thinner would be perfect for achieving that extra fine delicate work that no normal person would even consider wasting time on at home.

Once again, if your friend has the space and weight allowance, ask him/her to buy you a medium slicer too (or pay the postage to have them all sent home to you). Whatever you choose not to keep, can be given away to family and/or friends, or sold for at least the cost of purchase+postage, problem solved!

Thank you again, Sillywizard, for your this exposition. However, I wonder:

• It is clear, that this tenth of a millimeter makes difference when making very delicate work. But in the other direction, how can another fraction of steel added make any significant difference on the edge, and its capability to chop through lighter bones and the like? For me this tiny difference indicates that the slicer’s edge just as good can chop through those bones, the only noticeable difference being the total weight, which in itself of course makes the chopping somewhat easier.

• Or is it so that the differences lies therein, that the spine thickness stays the same all the way to short before the edge, and therefore makes it much more solid in total?

• Or—yet again—does the chopper have constitution where the edge is sturdier close to the handle, and more delicate against the tip side?

I am sorry if I am asking about obvious things, but I find it really interesting. I will for sure ask him to buy as much as possible. My plan is for now:

KF1102 – Kitchen (i.e. restaurant) slicer – carbon steel
KF1302 – Small (i.e. home use) slicer – carbon steel
KF1402 – 九江刀 Kau Kong Chopper (small) – carbon steel
KG1902 – Chopper (small) – stainless steel

What do you think about this disposition? Reasonable? Would it be wiser to get a big restaurant chopper instead?

 

[Noodle Soup]

The one thing I have learned the hard way about the CCK Kau Kong chopper is it really isn't that heavy of duty. Few if any Chinese chefs and home cooks ever chop large pork or beef bones. That is left to the butchers in the markets and their really heavy cleavers. I decided to try the Kau Kong on some large beef rib bones and badly dinged the edge. While I did my best to sharpen it out, you can still see the damage. The knife is OK for poultry and pork rib type work but never again on heavy beef bones.

 

[Sillywizard]

@Kamelion: Now we are crossing the limit to over analyzing. Such questions cannot be sufficiently answered; edge geometry begins to come into play, ones' technique, personal preference etc...etc...

At this point you are simply going to have to start using the knives and decide for yourself. Besides, your initial impression probably will change after a few months of usage as you adapt to the knives and the way they are to be used.

What we (the forum) expect now is that you post your feedback and experience after you have gotten your knives and used them a longer while.

A tip is to put away your other knives (with the exception of a paring knife) for a month or two as you learn to use the cleavers,
Good luck!

 

[Kamelion]

The one thing I have learned the hard way about the CCK Kau Kong chopper is it really isn't that heavy of duty. Few if any Chinese chefs and home cooks ever chop large pork or beef bones. That is left to the butchers in the markets and their really heavy cleavers. I decided to try the Kau Kong on some large beef rib bones and badly dinged the edge. While I did my best to sharpen it out, you can still see the damage. The knife is OK for poultry and pork rib type work but never again on heavy beef bones.

Thanks for the tip. Actually, that was my feeling as well, wherefore I probably will buy the smallest one, for just light-weight chopping. However, do you think it is wiser to go for stainless, since it is often less brittle and little bit tougher/impact resistant?

 

[Kamelion]

@Kamelion: Now we are crossing the limit to over analyzing. Such questions cannot be sufficiently answered; edge geometry begins to come into play, ones' technique, personal preference etc...etc...

You got me there; that’s a tendency I have … However, some questions were pretty factual, I think, foremost whether the thickness changes from handle to tip? Got any photos to show this?

At this point you are simply going to have to start using the knives and decide for yourself. Besides, your initial impression probably will change after a few months of usage as you adapt to the knives and the way they are to be used.

What we (the forum) expect now is that you post your feedback and experience after you have gotten your knives and used them a longer while.

That I will do for sure, and I am sincerely thankful for all the help you and the rest of this forum has given me.

But as I hope you understand, I cannot buy them until I can; when the trip takes place, that is. And also I cannot spend to much money, and the luggage is limited. The best would be to buy 10 cleavers and try it all out, but that is not possible. Thus, I try to find 4–5 that covers it as much as possible.[/QUOTE]

A tip is to put away your other knives (with the exception of a paring knife) for a month or two as you learn to use the cleavers,
Good luck!

Actually, I am almost exclusively using my cleaver—plus a paring knife—for now in my kitchen, just have no other of the sort to compare with, other than I feel the steel is pretty crappy. In general, very happy with it as concept. This cleaver has, if anyone is interested, the following data:

Length: 358 mm
Weight: 305,2 g
Blade length:205 mm
Blade height (heel): 92 mm
Blade height (middle): 93 mm
Blade height (tip): 88 mm
Spine thickness, handle side: 1,9 mm
Spine thickness, tip side: 1,7 mm
Thinning out starts at 43 mm from the spine.

I will add this data in another post some time, but the knife is really pretty unspectacular, and I never felt the urge to share this yet.