Don Nguyen 23.7 cm 1084 gyuto passaround

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I'm traveling a lot for work right now, and during my week off the post office decided to play ping-pong with it rather than deliver it, so I only really had 48hrs to play with it before I was heading back out of town again and needed to ship it on to the next person as to not hold up the line any longer. Still, this knife made quite an impression on me in that brief time and I spent as much time as I could using it or just holding and staring at it.

Let me start off by saying that I really, really liked this knife and that while I do have some (hopefully) constructive criticism, I am in awe of just how good this knife is considering that it is a prototype from a maker who is still very new in comparison to the master knife-makers to who's work his will inevitably be compared. The down-side of this knife being so good in so many ways, is that it invites judgement and evaluation on a much higher and more minute level than one might typically impose on a knife in this price range.

Perhaps what struck me most was that there where many design elements that where unusual or unique and they where technically very demanding. Normally the combination of those elements with a new maker results in some pretty big fails. But that was definitely NOT the case here.

My favorite, and IMO, most impressive part of the knife was the handle. The handle was even more striking in person. The extreme angles and geometry really added to the knife's over-all stealth-fighter or f1 car aesthetic: even sitting still, it just LOOKS fast and dangerous. This is a seriously bad-ass looking handle, but often non-traditional, cool-looking handles don't feel as good as they look, or, very good at all. Again, that was not the case here. The handle feels like a combination of maybe a tapered octagonal wa and angular western handle, but really it feels like nothing else that I've ever held before... and in a good way. There are dozens of little details: like the slight tear-drop cross section and the extra flat spot on the underside right behind the coil that shows that Don has a really sophisticated understanding of ergonomics as they pertain to holding onto a kitchen knife in a variety of grips and techniques. Seriously, his design work on this handle puts him right up there with Adam Marr, and Michael Rader (two of my favorite and, IMO, most innovative handle makers). However, there where a few, very minor technical issue with the execution of the handle design: the 2 sides where not perfectly symmetrical. I took some pictures, but Son's show it just as well. If you look at the shot of the end, and near the top and bottom, you can see that the flat spot is wider on one side than the other. There where a few other areas around the handle where you can see, if you really look carefully, that the bevels don't line up the same way on both sides. I admit that this is totally inconsequential in terms of feel or function and fully understand that making a handle like this without any visible flaws / asymmetries is orders of magnitude more difficult than your traditional wa or western shapes. One last note / bit of personal preference was that they handle was just a bit skinny for my xxl paws. The length was fantastic, perfect even, but girth-wise it was clearly designed with small-to-average hand sizes in mind. I admit that

The blade design is less revolutionary, but still pretty extreme and ambitious in terms of technical difficulty. It's a gyuto for someone that likes suji's and flat, pointy, sleek, low-tip profiles. There's enough belly to rock, but that clearly is not what it was made to do. The profile is set up well for push, draw, and diagonal cutting motions, but I did notice the the back 1/3 or so of the edge was dead flat. This means that when rocking, or using any stroke where the heel is coming into even / full contact with the board, it results in the "clunk" feeling where a big enough portion of the edge is all hitting at the same time that all of the momentum ends at once. I think Dave had a thread about true flat edges and the problem with the "clunk" but I'm having a hard time finding it.

The grind seems to be a compound blended-bevel design with a transition to almost full-flat near the front. As far as I could could see the grind was flawless and even and any hint of grind or scratch mark was polished away with a very high-grit finish.
However, when it came to function and cutting performance, I think that the the grind really fell short. This is a pretty thin blade, so I really expected wedging to be a non-issue and effort to be very low. However, I found that rear 1/2 or so of the blade was pretty difficult to push or slice through taller product. I did some testing with a cucumber-sized zucchini and found that when cutting 1/4" thing circles, the final 5-10% of the vegetable actually snapped and broke off before the cut was complete. Potatoes and carrots didn't feel very good either. This high-drag, wedge-inducing geometry combined with a blade that is fairly thin and light meant that I had a very difficult time building any kind of speed or momentum though my cuts and the perceived cutting effort as much higher that I would expect for any knife, much less one with dimensions like this one. The front 1/3 to 1/2 of the blade is much thinner and the grind seems to be different as well and I did not experience any of the same issue as I did with the rear of the blade, but this forward section of the knife is not very rigid and an some flex is noticeable. I understand that making a long, low, sleek blade cut well, release well, minimize drag, and also still be rigid and have a blade-forward balance point is a very very difficult thing to achieve. So, the fact that Don didn't manage is crack the holly grail of grinds on this blade is no surprise, and I really commend him on attempting such a difficult design. The blade did work amazingly well slicking both cooked and raw chicken, pork, and beef.

Lastly I mentioned that the steel was really a joy to use. It came very sharp from Son, which is impressive considering how little he did to it. I'd say that it was a very "functional" level of sharp, but not hair-popping or "silly sharp." So, I took it to my highest grit j-nat finisher for a few stropping passes just to see what would happen. It felt great on the stone, and 30 seconds and a quick cork-de-burr later hair was flying off my arm and newprint was running away when the edge so much as looked at it. I was weary that all I had done was sharpen a burr or re-align fatigued steel, but the edge held up just fine though all of my hard testing with no rolling or sudden drop in performance. The edge managed to get very fine while still holding onto it's teeth.
I'd say that Don has the HT figured out for this steel...
The patina was not particuarly heavy when I got this knife, and I did notice some reactivity to/ browning of onion, but nothing terrible. I'd say that the steel is more reactive than 01 but not bad or noticeably worse than W2 or white #1.

Bottom line: really impressive work that means I will be watching out (with very high expectations) for more from Mr. Nguyen.


Thanks to Lefty for another awesome pass-around!!!
 
Thanks for the criticism Justin, I really appreciate it! Tons of things to ponder and revise for me - I get excited just thinking about it.

Does anyone have any gripes/concerns about the natural, un-stabilized handle wood?
 
Don Nguyen said:
Thanks for the criticism Justin, I really appreciate it! Tons of things to ponder and revise for me - I get excited just thinking about it.

Does anyone have any gripes/concerns about the natural, un-stabilized handle wood?
Click to expand...

Don, most woods will have shrinkage unless stabilized with the exceptions of the very oily dense woods like cocobolo or ironwood. In climates with low humidity "shrinkage" can take place in as little as a week. So I guess unstabilized would be a no go if I were to order one. Also consider the weights of many woods vary so you may have to compensate for heavier woods by drilling some additional tang holes to keep balance more forward.
 
Going in the mail today to vertigo. Will post more later tonight.
 
Just took delivery of the DTN. Won't have time to sharpen it up and really drive it until Monday, though my initial impressions taking it out of the package are exceedingly positive.

Smells kinda like Wyoming though. Gross.

:lol2:
 
lol. Could have been worse I forgot to pack the towel that was around the knife.
 
Okay, after two shifts in the office with this charming little rapscallion, I feel comfortable and familiar enough with its performance to share some thoughts:

First Impressions

The profile is exactly what I look for in a knife: extremely flat, appropriately narrow for its length, with a well defined tip. Even if it wasn't the maker's intention, it will have no trouble serving double duty as both a gyuto and a slicer. In hand, the knife feels light, sporty, and agile. The blade has a high grit finish and a decent patina started, though it has acquired a number of superficial scratches from its adventures. At the heel the geometry looks a little chunky: while the overall blade is thin, the majority of its vertical taper begins a little further towards the edge than I'd like. The distal taper is slight and gradual, bringing the steel to a delicate and highly functional tip. There are no obvious overgrinds or undergrinds--in fact, the grind looks just about impeccable in its execution--though I can see the very slight "curve" that Son mentioned in his review.

The handle itself is refreshingly different, and a little bit funky. Funky in the "Sly and the Family Stone" kinda way, not in the "damn, how long has that been in the fridge" kinda way. Straight off the bat I'm in love with it. As Justin said, this was clearly made by someone with a good understanding of ergonomics. It's stupidly comfortable to hold, especially in a pinch grip. The diamond shape of the scales as they terminate at the blade face seems a revelation, like why haven't people been doing this all along? My pinch wraps around it organically, as if I'd been using the knife for decades. If I could complain about anything in the handle--besides the idiosyncrasies in the scales already mentioned--it would be that the pins, bent around the handle's sharp angles, seem a little forced. Aesthetically, a round pin bent at multiple hard angles just doesn't work for me. Hardly a deal breaker though. The bottom line is that holding it is completely comfortable and natural, and Don gets the highest marks I could give for his vision.

The saya is functional and pretty, though the smell I earlier joked as "Wyoming" actually comes from the saya's natural oils, which cling to the blade after its removal, and remind me of being in a head shop. I could do without that. I promptly hid it on top of my cupboard.

Sharpening

The edge as received was a little run down and had a very dark patina built upon it, though there were no rolls or chips that I could detect with my fingers or naked eye. I gave it a few light passes on a Rika 5k, then stropped on unloaded leather, and within moments it was back to full speed and whipping through arm hair. I haven't used a knife in 1084 before (that I know of), but this knife was as effortless to touch up and deburr as any other basic carbon I've used. I wish I could say more about its performance on the stones, but steel this simple rarely proves challenging or nuanced.

In the Weeds

I brought her in for the two hour frenzy of prep before Sunday brunch, then kept her by my side for the remainder of the shift as my line knife; today, being much slower, I shirked my duties as sous and spent ten hours using her to make sweet, sweet love to every single protein, fruit, and vegetable we stock. The poor girl is tired. I admit our affair was one of both love and strife, though the good times far exceeded the bad and I'll focus on them first.

For starters, this baby is a carnivore. The most fun I had using it over 20 hours was as a slicer, bringing her with gusto through scads of chicken, turkey, ribeye, tri-tip, pork loins and shoulders. Cooked or raw, the knife had little difficulty fabricating any portion I demanded. Shaving tri-tip for sandwiches was as functionally effortless as it was with a Masamoto KS; in breaking down primals it was indistinguishable from a Carter. Her second talent is fruits, especially tomatoes: I go through boxes daily, and together we cut down each and every one. While the edge faltered quick against so much acidity, one or two gentle swipes on a 2k ceramic proved enough to bring it back. I gravitated towards using the tip more than usual (more on that later), but had no difficulties slicing and dicing my way into gallons of salsa fresca. Peeling melons, cubing pineapple, hulling strawberries (just like Son! Yay!), anything that was fairly moist fell to her charms. We even made a few orange supremes in hand for fun, just to remember our time together.

When we hit vegetables and more dense, firm objects, the honeymoon was over. My experience in this department was closer to Justin's than Son's: the knife stalled out on me quite a bit, literally dragging to a stop--especially going through fat, angry onions and potatoes--and I found myself using the tip more to compensate. The grind is quite a bit flatter and thinner there, and simply makes the forward third of the knife more functional than the rest for tall and "sticky" foods. It was by no means a bad cutter in this capacity, just provided (finally) the evidence that I was using a prototype.

Reactivity was worse than nicer carbon and nicer than worse carbon. I got minimal discoloration on onions, had no offensive odors (once I washed off the weird saya-juice), and only saw the "oh snap" warning signs of rust when I was elbows deep in a box of limes. Between all the acidity and protein, she picked up quite a bit of color, and is looking pretty damn sexy these days. I'll post up a few pics tomorrow before shipping it out, if we get a little sun.

Conclusion

All totaled, I'm really impressed with this knife. I think Don graduated straight past a lot of the clumsy intermediate steps of knife making, and produced something fully functional as a "prototype" which could, if we didn't know any better, be completely mistaken as the work of someone with much more experience. While I couldn't use it as my daily driver without some tweaks to the grind, it's an exceptional effort, and I'm excited to see future iterations coming down the pipe.

Thanks to both Don and PT,

-Jack

TL;DR

Nice knife!
 
The last time I wrote about a makers knife he pretty much said I phoned it in. So this time I am gonna try to be a little more forward about the knife.

First of all fit and finish was very nice. I really didn't see any problems with it. Seemed to hold a edge well. I did have problems with steering. I wasn't paying attention when I looked at the onion I was slicing and noticed the onion was pulling the knife to my right. I didn't do much in trying to see what the problem was at the time. Going on to my second onion my hand started to cramp up. It seems that the handle was too small for my hand. I use a pinch grip at the base of the blade. But there really was no support for my hand until the very back. After playing around with how my hand fit on the handle I finally figured out what I would change the handle.

The handle was too long for the handle to be functional for me. I went to take pic's but ran out of time. I like how the back part of the handle fit in my palm. I would like to think the handle in that fashion would work well with more like a palm swell. I am sure this isn't making any sense, but this is about the only way I can explain it in writing.

I didn't do much cutting at all after I got the cramp, so I won't grade on the steel, ht, and edge.

The saya friction fit was very well done. I didn't need the pin for transport to work.

So as to say did I like the knife no. But I do think the handle has quite a bit of genus boing with it. I did like the workmanship that was involved. I would love to see the next generation of what Don makes, and I do think he will be around for quite a while.

Please ask questions so I can try to be more clear.
 
Very, very, very insightful comments Jack and Crothcipt. I REALLY appreciate your time for writing that up.

I definitely have my work cut out for me. What part of the grind would you say is causing the wedging? From what I remember the thickness behind the edge was minimal, about 0.005" at completion and initial sharpening. It must be a different aspect of the grind I'm not aware of, perhaps the bevel height, or something I never even considered before.

I also have to consider the handle design for larger hands, because several people have remarked about that already. What changes do you think would make the most substantial difference (increased dimensions, shorter length, less taper, etc), or would I have to look at a complete reworking?
 
Awesome review Jack! I"m always a bit envious of how much you pros can learn in such a short period of time with all the cutting that you do... I might have to start volunteering at a soup kitchen just for when I do pass around reviews.

Way to be direct Crothcipt; I know exactly what you mean about not feeling a lot of support near the front of the handle.

As to Don's questions:
I think that just increasing the handle diameter near the front, might help this a bit. Maybe a tad less taper and a just a hair less length (so the increased handle mass doesn't throw off the balance) I really liked how dramatic the taper looks and long the handle was. So I really wouldn't want to mess with it too much.

As for the grind, I think that the issue was not that it wasn't thin enough behind the edge, but that it started to thicken too much too quickly / close to the edge. Perhaps try keeping it thinner a bit higher up. I understand that this is very tricky to do with a low, sleek blade. I've noticed that some makers like Shigefuesa actually leave their blades much thicker at the spine, but then the thickness drops much more rapidly / less linearly than your grind did near the heel / back 1/2 of the knife. I think that a thicker spine acts like, well a spine, and allows the rest of the blade to be thinner without losing rigidity.
 
Justin0505 said:
As for the grind, I think that the issue was not that it wasn't thin enough behind the edge, but that it started to thicken too much too quickly / close to the edge. Perhaps try keeping it thinner a bit higher up. I understand that this is very tricky to do with a low, sleek blade. I've noticed that some makers like Shigefuesa actually leave their blades much thicker at the spine, but then the thickness drops much more rapidly / less linearly than your grind did near the heel / back 1/2 of the knife. I think that a thicker spine acts like, well a spine, and allows the rest of the blade to be thinner without losing rigidity.
Click to expand...

My thoughts exactly. While the blade itself is thin (roughly 1.8mm at the spine over the heel, according to my old and frequently inaccurate plastic calipers), there is very little vertical taper until around halfway towards the edge. Starting with thicker stock and tapering faster from the spine would allow you to maintain the same sleek height, profile, and stiffness, while making the food separate easier during cutting. As it is right now, once the first half of the blade is in the product, it loses it's ability to "push" the product away and simply binds up from friction.

The handle is perfect. I have big fat Shrek hands, and I wouldn't mess with it. I kept loving it during some tasks and hating it during others, and then it kinda clicked: in applications where the knife is performing admirably, such as slicing proteins or dicing tomatoes, the handle is completely transparent. It's just there, acting as a sexy counterbalance to the blade. When the knife begins to slow down and stall out, though--such as in a larger onion or going through a potato--you kinda need to torque on the handle to finish the cut, and suddenly it seems inadequate. It stands to reason then that you fix the problem with the cut, you fix the problem with the handle.

Just my two cents.
 
Wow I was thinking I would be the only one with this problem. I would think that what Justin said about shortening the handle and beefing up the scales would def. fix this.
 
Awesome, thanks everyone. I have a lot of ideas for new grinds to try out. I'll draw some out later and post pictures.

The handle actually, was initially supposed to be slightly larger in diameter with a slightly less dramatic taper anyways - unexpected things happen at the grinder :laugh: I'll keep at it with the designs and hopefully get one ideal to my vision soon.
 
I should have posted my thoughts awhile ago, but things have been hectic lately...
Most of what I could add has been touched on already. I had the same problems with wedging, and it was EXTREMELY reactive when I first cut into a tomato. The sulphur smell was more intense than I've ever experienced. But it calmed down after an hour or so of use. I have to agree with Jack, this knife is a carnivore at heart, and afraid of big starchy veg. I experienced a lot of stiction as well. But I chalked that up partially to the patina not being quite settled in(as well as the above mentioned grind issues). I really enjoyed the overall profile of the blade. Nice and flat.
The handle was immediately striking to me, straight out of the box. But after an hour of use I started to experience some of the same fatigue as crothcript. I have bigger hands and I just didn't feel that it had quite enough girth. Which is half the reason I like wa handles, due to the ferrule. I experienced the most discomfort on the lower edge of the angle that faces the middle knuckles of the index and middle fingers. I feel with continued use, my grip and skin would become accustomed to it(yet another knife callous), but it wouldn't be my first choice for a handle in its current state.
All that being said- this is an impressive offering from any class of bladesmith, but doubly impressive from one as 'green' as you Don. I look forward to your future offerings:D

Oh, btw- it traveled through both Canada and Maine, so I'm not surprised the saya smelled like a head shop:wink:
 
I do. Just touched it up last night on the stones. Getting the next address and i will be sending it out right after Christmas.

-Chuck
 
The passaround was completed a while ago, and the knife was returned to me. Thanks to all who participated and provided feedback to Don.

It is now with Don having a new saya made after the original one was accidentally broken.

Rick
 
They seem to go like that. Few post anything. Which is sad, it is what makes reading these fun.
 
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