Graza is still $13.99 on amazon for 25.3oz/750ml
https://www.amazon.com/Graza-Sizzle-Extra-Virgin-Olive/dp/B09WV8DBPV/
Grocery prices are super high these days.
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Graza is still $13.99 on amazon for 25.3oz/750ml
https://www.amazon.com/Graza-Sizzle-Extra-Virgin-Olive/dp/B09WV8DBPV/
Nice. Maybe it’s just that prices have doubled at the little Italian market I go to for some reason, idk.
I always enjoy how care free people are in their disparagements, condemnations, and statements of their own facts. Good grief.
Btw, I think part 1 here was too harsh, or at least I don’t have enough experience in the corporate world to be making blanket statements. Corporations are made of people, and many people are good. I just have a hard time believing that profit-focused entities, with all the associated incentives, will operate altruistically much further than their bottom line dictates.
aporigine
The slow blade penetrates the winter squash
I think it is indisputably correct that profit maximalization is the primary motivation of business entities that have a legally imposed fiduciary duty to their shareholders to . . . checks notes . . . maximize profits. The flip side is that such behavior can, on occasion, align with more pro-social motivations when such pro-social motivations happen to be popular enough to adequately affect consumer behavior. In that sense, corporations are not necessarily immoral actors, but they are amoral.
Of course, that raises the next question: is this a good thing?
And the answer: it depends!
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
Corporations operate to maximise profit. This is most certainly true once a company is listed publicly, because the horizon narrows down to the next quarterly report. That makes it very difficult or impossible to engage in long-term visionary planning and making large investments that might not pay off for a number of years.
The root of the problem is that our economic systems are based on growth. As long as you are growing, things are good. There is no disincentive to growth, even when growth manifestly is bad for the population and the planet as a whole. Each person and company performs their own local hill-climbing algorithm, trying to get the best outcome they possibly can. This works locally, but the emergent behaviour is to the detriment of everyone.
It's a more complex version of the tragedy of the commons.
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The tailored suit folks may be solid too, even, it’s just that their job performance is evaluated based on how much money they make for the company. In that kind of environment we’d probably all make money-guided decisions almost all the time.
Good grief.
You're right. Part of why our company kept people on so they would have them ready when things kicked back up. It wasn't some pure kindness action, but one that was mutually beneficial. I just pointed out my own example to say that regardless of motive, corporations are not inherently bad.
parbaked
Senior Member
Public companies have an obligation to increase shareholder value. It’s the perfect excuse to do shady stuff in pursuit of profit and bonuses…
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Dang for me it's $11. I think I paid like $18 in my grocery store...
parbaked
Senior Member
Do you think that large food corporations, tobacco and pharmaceutical companies are inherently good? How about banks like Wells Fargo?
Nope. Lot's of companies go rogue and do bad things. My disdain for big pharma is a large part of why I didn't trust vaccines. But it's weird how many anti-corporate folks loved them a couple years ago.
The only thing I think is inherently bad is government.
It's impossible to have this discussion without being political.
$11.15 for me. For a few dollars more, I like the California olive ranch brand
What’s the alternative in your view? Or is it just that some gov’t is necessary, but we should pare it down as much as possible and let the free market take care of the rest?
A mix of Aldi, Trader Joe's, and Costco, and beef from my brother-in-law works pretty well for us. The local chain (Hy-Vee) used to be a favorite of ours. We can walk to it form our house, so it's extremely convenient. But, prices there have went up and quality is dropping. Particularly produce. It's not Stop and Shop bad, but the produce is headed in that direction.
With meat and processed foods seeing a lot of the larger price jumps, it's been a good time to try to eat a little more balanced. The price increases definitely suck though.
With meat and processed foods seeing a lot of the larger price jumps, it's been a good time to try to eat a little more balanced. The price increases definitely suck though.
The challenge is that all human institutions -- corporate, governmental, military, national, local, left, right, religious, civil, public, private, etc. -- are prone to the same problems. It's all just people banding together. The only true guarantor of liberty is to make sure that power is never overly concentrated. You need a balance between governmental and private interests. In the context of the US, you also need a balance between national and state-level authority, as well as between and among the co-equal branches of government. Some level of strong central executive is needed, but so is devolution of power across local lines.
Interestingly, the "assembly of demigods" derives from Jefferson's writings about the US Constitutional Convention. Of course, that entire project was to create a system of checks and balances that would allow maximum individual rights to flourish within a system of ordered liberty. The founders were trying to thread a needle between anarchy and dictatorship.
Well this is one I do know about. I spent the last 27 years working in science in government. Good people who actually take less money than private sector to be able to fund their science and have a secure job. Most of who are not always very happy with government. The government actually does a lot of the studies and research. Big pharma does the manufacturing and takes all the profits, but the science is good done by good people and not to be feared.
I am also big Pharma, R&D. Immensely proud to contribute towards bringing treatments to patients who previously had none available. Immensely proud that we don’t take part in opiates, gouging, etc. Very curious to hear more about the disdain.
I should also mention begin a public servant we are also not allowed to profit from what we do. Only our basic salary. We work for the people. Unlike private sector or even high up officials. We and our families can not invest in such products from the research as it is a conflict of interest. So these people don't do it for the money. Which is crazy since people in congress and others who approve a lot of this stuff do.
Even during covid while we were technically closed and only essential employees where allowed on site. Labs switched to Covid research and came onsite to do research for a vaccine and could have stayed home and got the same pay doing whatever they can from home.
Even during covid while we were technically closed and only essential employees where allowed on site. Labs switched to Covid research and came onsite to do research for a vaccine and could have stayed home and got the same pay doing whatever they can from home.
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I think, if history is right and it usually is, most systems outside of capitalism do not work on larger scale, especially now, when international trade literary controls most countries and larger companies financial wellness. There is likely very few to 0 of such entities that care about their customer. I mean, they do it by happenstance, as in, if they make good product, then their customers are happy and by such will buy their products = company happy, so in that end, they care, but most do not make products to have happy customers.
There are many different elements that apply to supply, demand, pricing, perception, and any other reason that we could spend a lot of time on discussion but suffice it to say that capitalism at least keeps things like competition as honest as it can be. I.E there is a drive to invent new things because they will make you rich. Of course, I am over-simplifying it, obviously, but my uncle said something to me about 30 years ago, "in america, a husband or wife does not kiss each other for free" I used this quote many times with many people and many looked at me sideways, until they thought it though. In some regard, that applies to everything else, where you as an individual, have to get something out of it, or it won't work for you long term (from companionship, trust, financial support, to many other things).
We can even take this forum for example - why is it here? It's a 3 sided marketplace. 1. For it's owners to be a business and make money (after covering the costs, don't get me wrong, they love this as well, and I am very happy that they found a way to monetize it to keep it going). For craftsmen it's a way to show their goods, spread their name, connect with their customer made, and find out new trends, and 3. For me, as a end user, it's a way to learn about all things kitchen, buy new toys, sell toys I don't need' and everything else, such as have a small (when I started here) community of mostly like minded people who value good food, good tools, good technique when it comes to kitchen.
In the end, everyone has to get something out of it, and everyone has to pay into it (time, money, etc), otherwise it won't work.
There are many different elements that apply to supply, demand, pricing, perception, and any other reason that we could spend a lot of time on discussion but suffice it to say that capitalism at least keeps things like competition as honest as it can be. I.E there is a drive to invent new things because they will make you rich. Of course, I am over-simplifying it, obviously, but my uncle said something to me about 30 years ago, "in america, a husband or wife does not kiss each other for free" I used this quote many times with many people and many looked at me sideways, until they thought it though. In some regard, that applies to everything else, where you as an individual, have to get something out of it, or it won't work for you long term (from companionship, trust, financial support, to many other things).
We can even take this forum for example - why is it here? It's a 3 sided marketplace. 1. For it's owners to be a business and make money (after covering the costs, don't get me wrong, they love this as well, and I am very happy that they found a way to monetize it to keep it going). For craftsmen it's a way to show their goods, spread their name, connect with their customer made, and find out new trends, and 3. For me, as a end user, it's a way to learn about all things kitchen, buy new toys, sell toys I don't need' and everything else, such as have a small (when I started here) community of mostly like minded people who value good food, good tools, good technique when it comes to kitchen.
In the end, everyone has to get something out of it, and everyone has to pay into it (time, money, etc), otherwise it won't work.
Michi
I dislike attempts to rewrite history
It's not just grocery prices that are up, and the phenomenon is world-wide, not limited to a particular country or government.
We've had inflation everywhere, world-wide. Part of this is the fallout from Covid, which did a lot of economic damage. That entire period was a huge upheaval that drastically distorted established markets. Consumer behaviour changed, governments injected massive amounts of stimulus to prevent economic collapse, supply chains were disrupted, etc, etc. As always in times of upheaval, there were lots of losers, but quite a lot of winners. Some of the stimulus went where it was absolutely not needed, and some companies here pocketed large amounts of government money even though their business increased during that time.
Here in Australia, everything is more expensive. Whether it is groceries, clothing, rents, or insurance. You name it, it is more expensive, and often hugely so. My car and home insurance premium has doubled over the past three years. Not just because of Covid, but because we have had a huge number of catastrophic climate events: floods, storms, and fires. Just because I haven't had an accident in decades doesn't mean that my insurance company isn't under financial pressure and won't hesitate to raise car insurance premiums to recover part of the cost of rebuilding houses. As climate change gets worse, so will the natural disasters, and costs will continue to go up. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg for now.
In the face of this, normal market forces don't operate normally to regulate prices any longer because circumstances are changing and are no longer "normal". What gives me pause here is that the ongoing trend to privatise everything is not to the benefit of the average person, but mostly to the benefit of shareholders.
Here, we have privatised just about everything now. Governments from both sides of the spectrum have sold pretty much everything that isn't nailed down. Airports, trains, electricity distribution, telecommunications, child care, hospital care, aged care, etc, etc. We haven't privatised defence, but that appears to be pretty much the only hold-out. Everything else is fair game.
The theory is that competition and market forces will ensure that goods and services are delivered more efficiently and cheaply. More realistically, many local, state, and federal governments have been unable to resist the temptation of getting a cash flow injection to make the budget look good (and to pork barrel electorates).
The fly in the ointment is that private corporations must operate at a profit, whereas government operations don't need to make a profit and, in lean times, can operate for considerable time at a loss, effectively being subsidised by the tax payer through those periods. Despite this, the money stays in government hands or ends up being used to continue to provide service. With private corporations, in good times, the shareholders profit. In bad times, the consumers lose because corporations will raise prices to cover their costs, or disappear if they don't. Either way, the community loses.
We've had inflation everywhere, world-wide. Part of this is the fallout from Covid, which did a lot of economic damage. That entire period was a huge upheaval that drastically distorted established markets. Consumer behaviour changed, governments injected massive amounts of stimulus to prevent economic collapse, supply chains were disrupted, etc, etc. As always in times of upheaval, there were lots of losers, but quite a lot of winners. Some of the stimulus went where it was absolutely not needed, and some companies here pocketed large amounts of government money even though their business increased during that time.
Here in Australia, everything is more expensive. Whether it is groceries, clothing, rents, or insurance. You name it, it is more expensive, and often hugely so. My car and home insurance premium has doubled over the past three years. Not just because of Covid, but because we have had a huge number of catastrophic climate events: floods, storms, and fires. Just because I haven't had an accident in decades doesn't mean that my insurance company isn't under financial pressure and won't hesitate to raise car insurance premiums to recover part of the cost of rebuilding houses. As climate change gets worse, so will the natural disasters, and costs will continue to go up. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg for now.
In the face of this, normal market forces don't operate normally to regulate prices any longer because circumstances are changing and are no longer "normal". What gives me pause here is that the ongoing trend to privatise everything is not to the benefit of the average person, but mostly to the benefit of shareholders.
Here, we have privatised just about everything now. Governments from both sides of the spectrum have sold pretty much everything that isn't nailed down. Airports, trains, electricity distribution, telecommunications, child care, hospital care, aged care, etc, etc. We haven't privatised defence, but that appears to be pretty much the only hold-out. Everything else is fair game.
The theory is that competition and market forces will ensure that goods and services are delivered more efficiently and cheaply. More realistically, many local, state, and federal governments have been unable to resist the temptation of getting a cash flow injection to make the budget look good (and to pork barrel electorates).
The fly in the ointment is that private corporations must operate at a profit, whereas government operations don't need to make a profit and, in lean times, can operate for considerable time at a loss, effectively being subsidised by the tax payer through those periods. Despite this, the money stays in government hands or ends up being used to continue to provide service. With private corporations, in good times, the shareholders profit. In bad times, the consumers lose because corporations will raise prices to cover their costs, or disappear if they don't. Either way, the community loses.
aporigine
The slow blade penetrates the winter squash
I had three entities make it to the clinic. None became marketed, which is like a Pulitzer for a med. chemist.
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I helped bring one compound that was invented in the original company to the clinic on a pretty fast clinical development path, by now it's off patent almost everywhere.
It's still making a killing for the company now owning the compound.
The originating company was taken over somewhere in the development process, to see the target price hiked 300%....simply because the buying company needed another 'blockbuster' in order to sell that company with a nice pipeline as we later found out.
Ethics in pharma does exist but with public companies the pressure to 'increase shareholder value' is ever present and leads to silly things.
It's still making a killing for the company now owning the compound.
The originating company was taken over somewhere in the development process, to see the target price hiked 300%....simply because the buying company needed another 'blockbuster' in order to sell that company with a nice pipeline as we later found out.
Ethics in pharma does exist but with public companies the pressure to 'increase shareholder value' is ever present and leads to silly things.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Monocausal solutions don't really work, but in the last few years we've had:
-A global pandemic that had a massive impact on global trade, significantly impacted production, the effects of which were largely dampened by turning on the money printer (which almost by definition will lead to inflation).
-Russia invading Ukraine - one of the bigger exporters of grains and eggs, which significantly ballooned prices and put a lot of insecurity in the market.
Since grain is used in so many products, and also used as an input for most milik / meat / egg production this trickles through a lot... although by now grain prices have largely settled again (which usually takes some time to trickle through).
-First a dip in energy prices during early COVID, then a massive increase as OPEC countries tried to boost the price - and I don't really see KSA going for yet another round of 'trying to push shale oil out of the market'. Energy prices are really significant since so much of our transportation still relies on fossile fuels, so it increases the prices of everything (especially in foods, where fossile fuel is used both in the production and transport stage).
-Energy price increases are especially noticable on anything grown in a greenhouse, where in the last year you saw prices more than double even in the places where I knew I wasn't getting squeezed by middle men.
-Climate problems really having an effect on production in places. In the mediterranean we've had droughts that led to a reduction in olive production for the last few years now, while the product itself is becoming more popular. So again you see an increase in demand while supply goes down... the predictable results is that prices skyrocket (they've pretty much doubled). We saw the same effect on other Spanish produce that normally picks up in winter to keep the price down, but was kinda lacking the last couple of years due to droughts.
I can imagine a similar thing might be happening in the US where a place like California is struggling more and more with the water situation while also generating a lot of the fancy produce.
-Avian flu problems in Europe that create problems on the poultry and egg market
-Supply and demand for butter / milk getting out of balance because people started consuming a lot more butter again, while supply remained stagnant. This caused a doubling of milk / butter prices, although it has gone down quite a bit again.
-Shifting consumer patterns that might drastically change the cost of certain items. For example here chicken thighs used to be dirt cheap because no one bought them. But in the last 10 years they've more than doubled in price simply because more and more people started realizing how great they are. We've seen the same with other cuts that got 'discovererd'; flank steak / bavette used to go into the minced meat with a lot of butchers, now it's sold as if it's some premium meat...because people are buying it. Pricing of a lot of things (especially specific cuts of meat) are largely trend-dependent.
And there's probably a lot more that I forgot with my fuzzy morning brain...
Then some things that may be more of a Dutch thing; I don't know to what extent they apply to other countries:
-Super market marketing is largely driven by special sales here. So... the sales prices are great... but to 'allow' such prices all the other prices are essentially elevated to cross-subsidize such marketing. That can work out very well or very poorly depending on how much your diet / purchasing habbits conform to the sales. At the very least it helps if you try and work the sales into your purchasing planning. Similarly it helps a lot if you eat more seasonal products.
-Similarly, most Dutch supermarkets do a form of market segmentation where they get far bigger margins on what they basically determine as the 'higher end products'. So they'll heavily compete on garbage products and low end crap, while essentially cross-subsidizing that with all the 'better stuff' (whether that's higher welfare meat, organic vegetables, healthy products, etc), because they figure the people going for those products will pay just about anything for it. The result is that those prices get artificially inflated a lot. And most Dutch consumers don't even realize it, blaming it all on inflation... when I can still get produce for great prices on the market, can still get meat and other proteins for acceptable prices at the restaurant wholesaler (or in Germany!).
-Over here supermarkets and big food corporations definitly are trying to exploit some of the crises to boost prices, but that doesn't mean the crises aren't real.
-In that sense I've largely been able to insulate myself from a lot of the inflation by being a bit flexible in where I buy, what I buy and when I buy. I generally try to buy just about anything I buy on sale, or in places where I know the price is best (like the local market). I hop products in some categories to adjust to whatever is cheaper (so for example whole birds and bird legs are still quite affordable, so these days I buy that instead of thighs).
-A global pandemic that had a massive impact on global trade, significantly impacted production, the effects of which were largely dampened by turning on the money printer (which almost by definition will lead to inflation).
-Russia invading Ukraine - one of the bigger exporters of grains and eggs, which significantly ballooned prices and put a lot of insecurity in the market.
Since grain is used in so many products, and also used as an input for most milik / meat / egg production this trickles through a lot... although by now grain prices have largely settled again (which usually takes some time to trickle through).
-First a dip in energy prices during early COVID, then a massive increase as OPEC countries tried to boost the price - and I don't really see KSA going for yet another round of 'trying to push shale oil out of the market'. Energy prices are really significant since so much of our transportation still relies on fossile fuels, so it increases the prices of everything (especially in foods, where fossile fuel is used both in the production and transport stage).
-Energy price increases are especially noticable on anything grown in a greenhouse, where in the last year you saw prices more than double even in the places where I knew I wasn't getting squeezed by middle men.
-Climate problems really having an effect on production in places. In the mediterranean we've had droughts that led to a reduction in olive production for the last few years now, while the product itself is becoming more popular. So again you see an increase in demand while supply goes down... the predictable results is that prices skyrocket (they've pretty much doubled). We saw the same effect on other Spanish produce that normally picks up in winter to keep the price down, but was kinda lacking the last couple of years due to droughts.
I can imagine a similar thing might be happening in the US where a place like California is struggling more and more with the water situation while also generating a lot of the fancy produce.
-Avian flu problems in Europe that create problems on the poultry and egg market
-Supply and demand for butter / milk getting out of balance because people started consuming a lot more butter again, while supply remained stagnant. This caused a doubling of milk / butter prices, although it has gone down quite a bit again.
-Shifting consumer patterns that might drastically change the cost of certain items. For example here chicken thighs used to be dirt cheap because no one bought them. But in the last 10 years they've more than doubled in price simply because more and more people started realizing how great they are. We've seen the same with other cuts that got 'discovererd'; flank steak / bavette used to go into the minced meat with a lot of butchers, now it's sold as if it's some premium meat...because people are buying it. Pricing of a lot of things (especially specific cuts of meat) are largely trend-dependent.
And there's probably a lot more that I forgot with my fuzzy morning brain...
Then some things that may be more of a Dutch thing; I don't know to what extent they apply to other countries:
-Super market marketing is largely driven by special sales here. So... the sales prices are great... but to 'allow' such prices all the other prices are essentially elevated to cross-subsidize such marketing. That can work out very well or very poorly depending on how much your diet / purchasing habbits conform to the sales. At the very least it helps if you try and work the sales into your purchasing planning. Similarly it helps a lot if you eat more seasonal products.
-Similarly, most Dutch supermarkets do a form of market segmentation where they get far bigger margins on what they basically determine as the 'higher end products'. So they'll heavily compete on garbage products and low end crap, while essentially cross-subsidizing that with all the 'better stuff' (whether that's higher welfare meat, organic vegetables, healthy products, etc), because they figure the people going for those products will pay just about anything for it. The result is that those prices get artificially inflated a lot. And most Dutch consumers don't even realize it, blaming it all on inflation... when I can still get produce for great prices on the market, can still get meat and other proteins for acceptable prices at the restaurant wholesaler (or in Germany!).
-Over here supermarkets and big food corporations definitly are trying to exploit some of the crises to boost prices, but that doesn't mean the crises aren't real.
-In that sense I've largely been able to insulate myself from a lot of the inflation by being a bit flexible in where I buy, what I buy and when I buy. I generally try to buy just about anything I buy on sale, or in places where I know the price is best (like the local market). I hop products in some categories to adjust to whatever is cheaper (so for example whole birds and bird legs are still quite affordable, so these days I buy that instead of thighs).
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Also, complaining that people are unfairly chastizing 'big corporations' and then talking about 'big pharma' is a bit hypocritical. I know there are some American pecularities related to the opioid crises, but I can tell you my girlfriend who worked in 'big pharma' for about 10 years now is not some money-rubbing witch.
Over here it's mostly just people doing cutting edge research under a giant magnifying glass of oversight to try and make the world a better place by fixing people's health problems. Yes there's money to be made... but that also has to offset all the research projects that went nowhere or never made it to market.
I also think our elders who still suffered from things like smallpox, polio and had to suffer through the Spanish flu without a vaccine would frown at the rise of current vaccine skepticism.
Over here it's mostly just people doing cutting edge research under a giant magnifying glass of oversight to try and make the world a better place by fixing people's health problems. Yes there's money to be made... but that also has to offset all the research projects that went nowhere or never made it to market.
I also think our elders who still suffered from things like smallpox, polio and had to suffer through the Spanish flu without a vaccine would frown at the rise of current vaccine skepticism.
Jovidah
I'll make you a sponsor offer you can't refuse...
Kinda skirting the edge towards the political here... but if you want to make political arguments to attribute blame or praise to a political actor you have to make an argument for how their policy influenced or would influence food prices.
Currently, food production still relies a lot on cheap labor, either seasonal and / or immigrant labor. So you don't have to be Nostradamus to predict what a hypothethical tightening or loosening of immigration policies would do to food prices. From what I've read (but I don't know how much truth there was in it) this has started to become an issue for British farmers post-Brexit.
There's a similar problem here where some parties want to limit immigration even of highly educated skilled immigrants, even though we have no simply do not have enough suitable applicants with the right education in our own workforce.
Similarly I think the opposition to AI you see in some countries here in Europe is really shortsighted considering we're facing an aging population and likely a shrinking labor force.
I'm struggling to see how culture wars and all the gender shenanigans have an influence on food prices either way; I don't see it significantly impacting neither production nor consumption of food.
There might be an effect of changing diet habbits, environmentalism, etc but that could go either way. Right now prices here in the Netherlands are likely to trend up due to increasing demands on farmers to take environmental concerns into consideration, which is likely to also somewhat lower supply of meat and animal products. However if you see a larger part of the population lowering their meat consumption there's a chance that we'll at least see temporary periods where supply did not contract to demand, leading to lower prices.
Most of the food stuff is really basic commodity market supply and demand stuff, it's not rocket surgery.
Currently, food production still relies a lot on cheap labor, either seasonal and / or immigrant labor. So you don't have to be Nostradamus to predict what a hypothethical tightening or loosening of immigration policies would do to food prices. From what I've read (but I don't know how much truth there was in it) this has started to become an issue for British farmers post-Brexit.
There's a similar problem here where some parties want to limit immigration even of highly educated skilled immigrants, even though we have no simply do not have enough suitable applicants with the right education in our own workforce.
Similarly I think the opposition to AI you see in some countries here in Europe is really shortsighted considering we're facing an aging population and likely a shrinking labor force.
I'm struggling to see how culture wars and all the gender shenanigans have an influence on food prices either way; I don't see it significantly impacting neither production nor consumption of food.
There might be an effect of changing diet habbits, environmentalism, etc but that could go either way. Right now prices here in the Netherlands are likely to trend up due to increasing demands on farmers to take environmental concerns into consideration, which is likely to also somewhat lower supply of meat and animal products. However if you see a larger part of the population lowering their meat consumption there's a chance that we'll at least see temporary periods where supply did not contract to demand, leading to lower prices.
Most of the food stuff is really basic commodity market supply and demand stuff, it's not rocket surgery.
