Hair vs. tomatoes...

[Citizen Snips]

i have to say that shaving and tomato are different tests.

shaving edge will not fall through a tomato and tomato test will not be the best at shaving. for me, its like comparing apples and oranges. i try to get an edge that will slice tomatoes well and feel really sharp with a three finger test while still having the ability to shave arm hair.

the key is getting all this and having edge retention. to me all this together make for really good sharpening techniques

 

[allumirati]

This is completely false. Saying you put a lot of pressure doesn't really mean anything concrete. Anyway if you put a LOT of pressure you will create mini grantons on a very small scale on every finger that you put pressure on. This will create a weak edge and at the end of the day all you get is a week edge. Also 4k and 8k are two very different stones so I get a bit confused on this too. If you get over a whole week with little to no work on your knife kudos, I am just sure it isn't because of your explanation, something else is at work there.

If using a lot of pressure doesn't work for you, don't do it. Just don't tell me I'm wrong when it works for me. I never said that my method was the only way. It's just I get what I want out of this method and I've tried just about everything in the book. I work 6 days a week so I don't have time to leisurely sharpen I just need my edges in peak condition fast.

mini gratons? that's why you keep moving the edge on the stone.

Personally I think shaving and tomato tests don't prove anything, you could say the same for paper. That is if the knife was made for cooking which can involve making beautiful slices of delicate fish or pounding through hundreds of pounds of veggies. And for most of us we use the same knife for both tasks. So yeah...

 

[memorael]

If using a lot of pressure doesn't work for you, don't do it. Just don't tell me I'm wrong when it works for me. I never said that my method was the only way. It's just I get what I want out of this method and I've tried just about everything in the book. I work 6 days a week so I don't have time to leisurely sharpen I just need my edges in peak condition fast.

mini gratons? that's why you keep moving the edge on the stone.

Personally I think shaving and tomato tests don't prove anything, you could say the same for paper. That is if the knife was made for cooking which can involve making beautiful slices of delicate fish or pounding through hundreds of pounds of veggies. And for most of us we use the same knife for both tasks. So yeah...

If you put a LOT of pressure (which in context is really not specific at all) which I consider a lot something that will bend the steel behind every finger that is applying pressure you WILL get mini indentations on the knife. Whatever it is you are doing it isn't working because of a lot of pressure that is the end of the story like it or not.

 

[Citizen Snips]

If you put a LOT of pressure (which in context is really not specific at all) which I consider a lot something that will bend the steel behind every finger that is applying pressure you WILL get mini indentations on the knife. Whatever it is you are doing it isn't working because of a lot of pressure that is the end of the story like it or not.

im not sure i agree with this. i personally dont use a lot of pressure but there are lots of people out there that believe that putting lots of pressure is essential. as far as the indentations go, is that not something you can polish out??

@alluirati: the shaving and tomato tests are not just some made up tests that people like to chat about. i use them to judge what my edge is going to act like in a high volume environment and not as any way to prove something. they can be very useful and if you dont find them useful, thats fine. im curious if you have a test or just put it to work. also, i dont think many people use their gyuto to slice fish...just sayin.

 

[stevenStefano]

If you want to know about high pressure sharpening, I think kcma on Foodie Forums is an expert in that. I always remember he said he sharpened with big pressure and he really knows his stuff if anyone that has ever posted there can testify. Maybe post on Foodie Forums about it? Any time I use pressure I just screw up the profile of the knife, with the indentations that have been mentioned. If you get one near the sweep at the tip you're screwed

 

[memorael]

If you want to know about high pressure sharpening, I think kcma on Foodie Forums is an expert in that. I always remember he said he sharpened with big pressure and he really knows his stuff if anyone that has ever posted there can testify. Maybe post on Foodie Forums about it? Any time I use pressure I just screw up the profile of the knife, with the indentations that have been mentioned. If you get one near the sweep at the tip you're screwed

I have seen KCMA sharpen his knife and the dude does put a lot of pressure and he also does about 200 miles per hour on the freaking stone, the deal with him is he sharpens at such a low angle (literally about 1 degree it seems the knife is flat against the stone) that the pressure he puts acts in a different way since the knife flexs on a whole different plane. Truth is there isn't a single way to sharpen knives, Dave has mentioned he likes seeing how knives come with distinct sharpening fingerprints from their owners.

The mini indentations or Grantons that kinda form usually turn into the S shaped or M shaped edges and happens when sharpening at higher angles and especially on knives that flex a lot, the Kikuichi TKC knife comes to mind, that knife flex's a bit (at least in my case). And they can be sharpened out but at a very high cost which is lots of steel. Like the saying goes, many roads lead to Rome, or there's more than one way to skin a cat. We could get into this and spend several hours if not days and conclude that usually high pressure on knives and stones is not something desirable, I would say that enough pressure to create a nice grinding even grinding noise is enough, it should sound melodic. Any change in the noise and your probably grinding more metal on one particular spot.

 

[allumirati]

im not sure i agree with this. i personally dont use a lot of pressure but there are lots of people out there that believe that putting lots of pressure is essential. as far as the indentations go, is that not something you can polish out??

@alluirati: the shaving and tomato tests are not just some made up tests that people like to chat about. i use them to judge what my edge is going to act like in a high volume environment and not as any way to prove something. they can be very useful and if you dont find them useful, thats fine. im curious if you have a test or just put it to work. also, i dont think many people use their gyuto to slice fish...just sayin.

If you put pressure in one place for too long then you get those overground spots, or if your stone is not flat. Classic examples are birds beak tips and dips near the heel. This is not a matter of pressure it's a matter of bad technique and stone maintainence.

I'm not saying I don't test my edges with shaving, tomato, or paper. Just saying different edges work better for different purposes.

For example I like a bitey"er" edge for maki that won't necessarily shave well or cut paper SMOOTHLY. But if the edge is too smooth sometimes it doesn't perform well on maki. Specifically ones with the seaweed outside.

AND I reserve my yanagi for slicing fish or softer rolls that can be squished easily like spicy tuna. For that I like my edges polished as high as possible which usually shaves and slices paper well.

But I've been experimenting with my cheapo chinese 12k and I like these edges for slicing sticky salmon. And kind of gives me good edges for maki too. Eventually I might get a nicer natural stone.

And yes I've developed my technique with pointers from KCMA although I don't always sharpen this way. And really if you figure out how to do it this way it really is faster.

 

[tk59]

I have seen KCMA sharpen his knife and the dude does put a lot of pressure and he also does about 200 miles per hour on the freaking stone, the deal with him is he sharpens at such a low angle (literally about 1 degree it seems the knife is flat against the stone) that the pressure he puts acts in a different way since the knife flexs on a whole different plane...

He would be making a concave edge and the metal behind the edge would be weak as a result. Depending on how much deformation is happening, it might only be suitable for very careful, light duty work.

 

[Citizen Snips]

If you put pressure in one place for too long then you get those overground spots, or if your stone is not flat. Classic examples are birds beak tips and dips near the heel. This is not a matter of pressure it's a matter of bad technique and stone maintainence.

I'm not saying I don't test my edges with shaving, tomato, or paper. Just saying different edges work better for different purposes.

For example I like a bitey"er" edge for maki that won't necessarily shave well or cut paper SMOOTHLY. But if the edge is too smooth sometimes it doesn't perform well on maki. Specifically ones with the seaweed outside.

AND I reserve my yanagi for slicing fish or softer rolls that can be squished easily like spicy tuna. For that I like my edges polished as high as possible which usually shaves and slices paper well.

But I've been experimenting with my cheapo chinese 12k and I like these edges for slicing sticky salmon. And kind of gives me good edges for maki too. Eventually I might get a nicer natural stone.

And yes I've developed my technique with pointers from KCMA although I don't always sharpen this way. And really if you figure out how to do it this way it really is faster.

what you are saying is all true. there are many different edges that do many different tasks. the key is to find what works for you for a specific knife for a specific task. if it works for multiple tasks and keeps its edge a long time, those are bonuses. i certainly do not finish my yanagi and gyuto on the same stone.

i know kc and understand what he does and why the way he is, it is just different than me. i do use a good amount of pressure, but nothing like him. if he was able, he would put his entire body weight on the tips of his fingers for sharpening. i like a bit more refined pressure and when you put THAT much pressure, you tend to lose control which is, in my opinion, the most important part of sharpening.

 

[mateo]

i have to say that shaving and tomato are different tests.

shaving edge will not fall through a tomato and tomato test will not be the best at shaving. for me, its like comparing apples and oranges. i try to get an edge that will slice tomatoes well and feel really sharp with a three finger test while still having the ability to shave arm hair.

the key is getting all this and having edge retention. to me all this together make for really good sharpening techniques

hmmm... well, I think I'm going to hit the stones this weekend at some point, so I'll see what happens! Thanks for the advice guys.