Honyaki?
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Justin0505
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Seriously!
I feel like whenever topics like these start everyone kinda stands around making confused small talk, just waiting for Jon to see the j-knife bat-signal and show up with some answers.
Eamon Burke
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Yeah, I would be totally in the dark without that guy. I defer to him for anything that requires a moderate understanding of the Japanese Language.
What would really do a world of good, would be people introducing, teaching, and perhaps even selling real, quality Japanese knives and using the English name for everything. Unless the Japanese just want to keep it a secret. In which case, let them do their thing. But there's going to be a lot of 'Inox Honyaki' and "Kasumi Titanium" out there.
What would really do a world of good, would be people introducing, teaching, and perhaps even selling real, quality Japanese knives and using the English name for everything. Unless the Japanese just want to keep it a secret. In which case, let them do their thing. But there's going to be a lot of 'Inox Honyaki' and "Kasumi Titanium" out there.
Marko Tsourkan
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If you call things what they are, then junk becomes junk and quality becomes quality. Right now it is all lumped together and aimed on unsophisticated buyer.
The funny thing, the loudest names usually imply mediocre quality (tamahagane, kasumi, katana). Reminds me of names on some Chinese companies (like car maker Chery).
M
Korin_Mari
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ご教示頂きまして、誠にありがとうございます。私共の方でもお役に立てることがございましたら、お気軽にお問い合わせ下さいませ。
今後とも、どうぞよろしくお願い申し上げます。
I'm not sure what you mean by forged but if you are talking about shaping then it is cut and ground out of a sheet of 19c27.
Like someone pounding on red hot steel bar with a hammer for hours
Yes, that is what forging would mean.
-AJ
Look I get you guys are calling rolling a forging process, as it is. However the material properties of rolled steel and drop forged steel are not the same. In this instance we are arguing semantics. I am sure everyone knows if the question is asked if a knife is forged what is meant by that.
-AJ
JohnnyChance
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Ah, but you see my friend, the same exact reason everyone is asking you to clarify is the same exact reason you are asking in the first place. Suisin is using a very vague definition of honyaki to label/market their knives as such: they are forged in a manner and mono steel. If we all just assumed honyaki means forged, and hand forged, then we wouldn't question the branding on the knife and blindly assume it is hand forged. If it were most other knives and you asked if it was forged, people would assume you were talking about hand forging and give you a straight answer. Since these are purposefully vague, they did not.
I would not say at all "they are forged in a manner" if they are cut from strip steel. And again, I don't think anyone else would confuse the issue if we are talking about knives.
As I said before, rolling is considered a forging process. That does not mean that anything cut from rolled steel be it a knife or a door is considered forged.
-AJ
As I said before, rolling is considered a forging process. That does not mean that anything cut from rolled steel be it a knife or a door is considered forged.
-AJ
No, it's not. Cutting is not a forging process. I'm not sure why there is argument on this. Forging is shaping of a metal by mechanical deformation. Which differentiates it from casting, cutting, welding etc.
What I wanted to know was if the Suisin INOX honyaki is forged. It didn't matter to me if it was hand forged by a person with a hammer or in a machine like a Henckels. I just wanted to know if it was beaten into shape. The general consensus so far is that it is not, it is cut from a sheet of steel, ergo not forged.
-AJ
Suisin Inox Honyak has two lines. Inox honyaki western style blades, i.e. gyuto, petty, suji, probably are cut from a sheet.
Still no idea how the traditional blade shape ones are done. Ginsanko one is forged into shape, I think.
Still no idea how the traditional blade shape ones are done. Ginsanko one is forged into shape, I think.
Eamon Burke
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Yeah, I wonder too. Like, is the IH deba forged to shape?
Gator
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Well, the truth is, most of us are willing to put down extra hard earned cash for the "true forged" knives. Not necessarily by hand, many makers use automated hammers for that, which is fine too. Point is, there is a difference when maker individually forges a knife and other types of forging, of which I have very little understanding to be honest
I record on DVR all educational shows on knife subject(how it's made, how do they do it, modern marvels, etc), lots of junk info, but on occasion you see interesting bits. E.g. making Henckels kitchen knives. Steel bar is cut to particular shape, then heated in the middle, compressed form the ends, to form a bulge in the heated section, and after that single robotic hammer blow forms that super bolster we all "love. That's it. The knife is finished (edge is ground on 120 grit belt) and goes on sale as forged...
I don't think forging in itself will make metal better or increase its properties significantly etc... Stock removal and other modern techniques work just fine. Having used both forged and stamped global I couldn't tell any difference in performance, except the forged piece was considerably heavier
It's pretty much back to mass made vs. individually made products. Honyaki implies that, well at least to me and many others here it does.
JohnnyChance
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I didn't say I agreed with them. All I said is they were using a lose definition of the term to brand it as such for marketing purposes. The sheet is rolled/forged, then the profile is cut out or the stock is cut and then forged by hammer or machine, do the major difference (to us) in these two processes matter to a marketing department? Apparently not.
What is the issue with people clarifying your question? They are merely trying to provide the best answer they can. You can't expect everyone to know that you know the difference between the two.
knyfeknerd
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I happen to own a Suisin Inox Honyaki 210 kamagata usuba. If it is just cut from a sheet of steel I'll be a F@$%)(## monkey's uncle. This is an awesome knife with outstanding F&F, Kirenaga,etc. If this is just a cut blade, why don't more makers do it this way? Wouldn't it be easier and more cost-effective?
Suisin Inox Honyaki owners stand up and testify!!!
Suisin Inox Honyaki owners stand up and testify!!!
This is all I am asking, is it hammered i.e. forged or not? So far I have gotten both answers, yes it is and no it is cut from sheet.
-AJ
Looking at the Suisins prices, I would say its not the most cost effective!
Gator
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Hmm, I wonder what do they do with them Nenox Honyakis to price at 500$+ ... And still perform worse than 150$ Henckels miyabi.
My point is, final price is determined by a lot of factors, and production effectiveness is not as important (often) as marketing effectiveness.
knyfeknerd
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(IMHO) Mine is a good knife, well worth the $$$ I spent. I really don't give 2 $h1ttz if some guy banged on it with a hammer or not. That does not make it of more or less value(to me). Can anyone tell me about a sharper stainless single bevel?
FYI, marketing had absoltutely nothing to do with my purchase.
FYI, marketing had absoltutely nothing to do with my purchase.
chinacats
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I bet I can guess which one it will be...:running:
Gator
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I don't question that, and as long as you are happy with it, that's all that matters
Yes, but there are lots of other folks for whom it makes difference, for many reasons. Knife marketing is well aware of that. There is no other reason to start calling things Honyaki, it was not traditionally used to denote "high quality" stuff either. IMHO, purely marketing move.
[/QUOTE]Can anyone tell me about a sharper stainless single bevel? FYI, marketing had absoltutely nothing to do with my purchase.[/QUOTE]
I don't have experience with Susin honyaki, and my stainless pieces are limited to one ZDP-189 gyuto and couple Tojiros from early days, although I am not sure why identical knife made from ZDP-189, SRS-15, D2 or other comparable stainless(with Susin INOX) alloy would be less sharp than Susin INOX.
As for the marketing thingy, so, how did you end up with Susin? Did you actually evaluate it before buying?
