In search of the ultimate cutlery steel

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Hoss, Like the post. I'm having a Suiji made from RWL 35. I heard its supposed to be close to CPM-154 but its obviously not the same steel. Any chance of getting that into the mix?

Not the same but the damascus will have cpm154 in it. Also, at the end of this project, we will consider any steel that the group has interest in.

On our end, there will be considerable research into every steel and the best heat treat. We are trying not to overlap similar steels.

Hoss
 
The simplest steel on the list is CruForgeV, a steel designed by Crucible specifically for those who forge. Steels for forging have a different set of requirements than tool steels or air hardening steels. They obviously need to be easy to forge, and respond well to thermal cycles with typically short hold times and often variation in temperature due to the limitations in equipment and doing things by eye. While Japanese bladesmiths have enjoyed alloys designed for them, such as the White and Blue steels, Americans have typically stuck with simple carbon steels (ie 10XX series), alloy steels (15N20, 52100), and simple tool steels (O1, L6), which were designed for other purposes, though of course can make quite good knives.

These steels offer some range of properties, such as the ability of O1 to be oil hardened, removing the need for aggressive water or brine quenching. However, they are typically in the category of medium to high toughness and low wear resistance, because of the small volume of small carbides. They are loved by users for their ease in sharpening and easily polished, hair-popping edges due to these small carbides, but are somewhat limited in terms of corrosion resistance and wear resistance.

Japanese bladesmiths have the option of the Blue steels which have alloy additions, particularly Tungsten, to increase wear resistance, and also have the ability of purchasing stainless-clad steel for improved corrosion resistance, at least away from the edge. CruForge V offers some similar characteristics. Crucible made a small but significant Vanadium addition which thermodynamic software predicts will lead to approximately 1% vanadium carbide along with another 1-3% cementite (iron carbide) which leads to a modest increase in wear resistance while still retaining the properties forgers like, including ease of forging, good toughness, and ease in sharpening. Vanadium carbide is the hardest of all the typical steel carbides, and therefore has the greatest improvement in wear resistance for a given amount; however, this can also lead to a decrease in sharpening, particularly because vanadium carbide is harder than most sharpening stones. With a relatively small amount of 1% by volume in the heat treated steel, the amount is small enough that ease of sharpening is maintained. This small amount of vanadium carbide also means that the carbide size is still exceptionally small like other carbon and alloy steels, so its carbide size is much smaller than the typically higher-alloyed PM tool steels.

In the end, CruForge V has a good combination of moderately low wear resistance, good toughness, and good ease of sharpening. It should have a better balance of toughness and wear resistance than the Blue steels, because it has somewhat lower overall carbide volume (higher toughness), but replaces some of those carbides with the very hard vanadium carbide (improved wear resistance). This makes it a good alternative to Blue steels for American bladesmiths. With Dad's ability to clad CruForgeV, improved corrosion resistance or toughness of the overall blade can also be achieved, depending on the chosen clad material.
 
D, I know little about steel, much of it comes from you and Larin. I also realize that any given steel is really just a recipe, and we all know bad cooks can screw up good ingredients. I'm not going to ask you to go out of your way, but other than the cost, I've heard when done right, it posses extraordinary kitchen knife properties.
 
D, I know little about steel, much of it comes from you and Larin. I also realize that any given steel is really just a recipe, and we all know bad cooks can screw up good ingredients. I'm not going to ask you to go out of your way, but other than the cost, I've heard when done right, it posses extraordinary kitchen knife properties.
RWL-34 is part of the category of stainless PM steels with relatively high carbide volume. While it might or might not be a really good version of that type, it is unlikely to have extraordinarily different properties from its category. That's why we spend time attempting to understand the general properties of steels and what contributes to those properties, so that we have some basic understanding of what any given steel is relative to the others, and what the potential range of properties might be.
 
This is an interesting project no doubt and I for one can't wait to see the finished products.

However, is there even such a thing as "the ultimate" cutlery steel (or the ultimate of anything, for that matter). I mean, like everything else, a tradeoff between certain qualities be they good or not so good will have to be made with any given steel choice, no? And wouldn't the wanted qualities generally differ between the artisan and the end user of the knife (ease of forging vs ease of use thereafter by a cook) or perhaps even from one artisan to another or one cook to another?

I apologize if I'm stirring the pot with valueless questions.

Anyway, I'm truly enjoying learning about non-japanese steel types so thank you all. Will be staying tuned to this thread.
 
There are many good knife steels and good knife makers out there. We are looking for a correlation between proper steel selection, correct forging, and optimum heat treating producing the best knife.

The catchy title is just to give a glimpse of what we are doing.

Next year will be my fortieth year making knives. We have learned lots of things over that time. I have helped lots of makers over the years and many have helped me.

This is a big project and everyone will benefit from the research. Larrin and I are excited to do this work, some of which we won't get paid for.

Hoss
 
This is an interesting project no doubt and I for one can't wait to see the finished products.

However, is there even such a thing as "the ultimate" cutlery steel (or the ultimate of anything, for that matter). I mean, like everything else, a tradeoff between certain qualities be they good or not so good will have to be made with any given steel choice, no? And wouldn't the wanted qualities generally differ between the artisan and the end user of the knife (ease of forging vs ease of use thereafter by a cook) or perhaps even from one artisan to another or one cook to another?

I apologize if I'm stirring the pot with valueless questions.

Anyway, I'm truly enjoying learning about non-japanese steel types so thank you all. Will be staying tuned to this thread.
See post #24 in this thread.
 
This is amazing work and I wish I had the coin to get on the list for a set. It would be a true collectors item worth playing with everyday
 
At what point will you be opening this project up for applicants? What will that process look like? Lottery? First come, first served?
 
At what point will you be opening this project up for applicants? What will that process look like? Lottery? First come, first served?

We've had several people contact us privately to sign up, you can pm me or email me if you want to remain anonymous, you can also use this thread to let us know.

Hoss
 
Just to make sure I have this straight. You are producing 12 knives at approximately $750 dollars each which consists of a single order. So each participant needs to come up with around 10K to cover their order,?
 
Yeah, spread out over 12-24 months.

Hoss
 
Very interesting thread and project, I'm looking forward to seeing and learning more as this moves forward.
I'll have to enjoy this vicariously as the cost is beyond my means. But I'm glad to see there is interest.
Great project, Hoss and Larrin!
 
Just, wow. For some reason one of the things that came to my mind after reading this was how many years it would take me to make that many knives :p

Anyhow - I am very curios what your personal opinion on the different steels is going to be. Something tells me that you are going to have some serious fun :)
 
We will be testing different heat treatments for each steel to try and find the optimum. Larrin has recommended ~14 different heat treatments that include differing forging, annealing, normalizing, hardening and tempering temperatures or cycles for the cru-forgeV. I imagine the other steels will be similar except the tempetatures will change.

There will be around 80 coupons generated for each steel type. The coupons will be charpy tested in the longitudinal and transverse direction. Differences in toughness will allow us to narrow down the best heat treat. We will probably do more than one round of tests based on information gathered.

The knife testing will be up to the end user. We are also making a set for our own testing. We have already made knives from most of these alloys and have already done heat treat testing on those steels. This will be the first time we use charpy testing.

Hoss
 
Don't forget the rockwell tests. :laugh:
 
Here is the list of steels:
Cruforge-V
Nilox
A2
19c27 & cpm154 damascus
N690
40cp
Spectrum wear
Spray form D2
M2
XHP
Elmax
Vanadis8

I know you're a big fan of AEB-L. I curious why it did not make the list. Is Niolox meant to be a better AEB-L replacement? Thanks!
 
AEB-L is a proven knife steel. Obvious steels missing include Abe-l, 52100, white and blue grades, cpm154, o-1, etc. The list does have some very promising grades produced by differing methods, pm, cast wrought, esr, and spray form.

I have made a few knives out of nilox and it's a very good steel. Not sure if I like it more than aeb-l. We'll have to see what the heat treat and knife testing show. I think we will learn lots from this project.

Hoss
 
I wish I was in a position to be a buyer/tester but I look forward to eating popcorn and watching you guys work through all this.

Btw Larrin are you still in the steel city and how are you liking it if you are?
 
Great idea can't wait to see the results!
 
Spray form D2 is when regular D2 eats at taco bell. Happend to a guy i know.
 
Btw Larrin are you still in the steel city and how are you liking it if you are?
We just recently purchased a home in the South Hills of Pittsburgh. My family loves the city and I am really enjoying my job developing automotive sheet steels.
 
Excellent news Larrin but when do the power hammer, anvil and forge go in?

There's this guy on this site who could help with any training you might want ... his name escapes me at them moment though .... darn it :bliss:

(sorry for the jacked thread)

We just recently purchased a home in the South Hills of Pittsburgh. My family loves the city and I am really enjoying my job developing automotive sheet steels.
 
A bit late to the party, but this sounds like a great project - fun and complex (and scientifically backed) at the same time. Look forward for the results!

Marko
 
Had a couple of distractions, back at it now.

Hoss
 
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