J-Nats - Value for money?

[OliverNuther]

I'm not into J-nats and not planning to start so this question is just out of curiosity but I was gobsmacked recently when I was browsing on a vendor site and saw the price of J-nats. Some were in the thousands of dollars, the dearest one I saw was about
4000 AUD! I had no idea they were that dear. I'm not criticising the vendor or any vendor; I imagine the price is determined by the scarcity of the stone and supply and demand but what I'm curious about is what do you get for that sort of money? What does a $4000 stone give you that a different cheaper stone won't ? Do people really pay $4000 for 1 stone? I find that mind boggling.

Again definitely no criticism intended of any vendor or anyone who does spend this sort of money on stones, I'm just trying to learn a bit more about the subject so any info would be appreciated. Oh, and use small words please; I find the whole world of J-nats rather bewildering.

 

[KimBronnum]

Firstly there are many reasonably priced jnats. In my view they can be a better deal than synthetics in a value for money perspective. Koppas and medium stones are usually much cheaper than rare finishers.
The very expensive stones are usually rate speciments of specific brands of stones: mostly Nakayamas and different suitas.
For all practical purposes it is almost always possible to find a much cheaper stone. For collectors, however, it is about the rarety and such. And further some people just have that kind of money to spend.
- Kim

 

[OliverNuther]

Thanks Kim.

I did note that the vast majority were much more reasonably priced. So the uber expensive ones are likely to be hoarded away and never used?

 

[hambone.johnson]

as a gross generalization; the very expensive stones are also extremely hard, so even when they are used there is virtually no wear on them and they are (again a generalization) usually finishing stones so the time you would spend sharpening no them is also very little. Given that, the resale value can have almost no depreciation even if they are used and cared for well, which i would assume if you spend thousands on a stone you have the knowledge and skills to care for that stone.

as Kim mentioned, Koppas can be a great way to accumulate stones of a variety without breaking an arm and leg.

Also, i find, and it has been mentioned often by professionals and those with far more experience than myself, that synthetics are very good in anything sub 5k. there are a couple of good 5k's and there are a hoard of 2k/3k grit stones that are amazing performers that cost fractions of what a natural stone in the same range would cost. like a natural AOTO could run you 200+ but a green brick of love is like 70$ and will last forever and the synthetic green brick is consistent and a great performer.

But when you start to look at the very high grit finishing stones of 5k and up the synthetic stones start to fade. its complicated to explain but something about the natural stone will continue to make the edge "sharper" and more complex where as synthetics in the 8,10,15k range can feel slippery and they just dont feel like they continue to really refine the edge. that's one of a hundred reasons why people look for those high grit finishing stones and pay the $ for them. its hard to recreate what a really great j-nat finishing stone can do to an edge compared to a synthetic.

 

[K813zra]

I may be the odd one out here but I much prefer my Naka-to stones to my Awase-to. Seriously, hands down it really is no question. They leave a more practical, to me, edge and are often times prettier and cheaper as well as being softer and having a better feel in use. Ara-to stones, not so much. While they feel better in use I don't think they are near as efficient as their finer counterparts not to mention synthetics.

Background and preferences out of the way I do find J-nats to be of a fair value if you do as suggested above and look for deals. In that the stones are smaller or have a slightly odd shape. Though, I much prefer a smaller stone than an oddly shaped one. It isn't like you have to go tiny. Often times a stone that is 7.5x2.5(ish) will be 30-45% cheaper than an\ 8x3(ish) stone. A lot of savings for not a lot less stone! Want to save a little more money then maybe get one with a chip in the corner etc.

I find them a good value for other reasons as well. As was already suggested, the tend to stay flat longer which means they wear slower. I find this true even with Naka-to stones, much but not all of the time. I like the cosmetic finish given by naturals better as well. They are more fun to use, for me, and smell good while doing so. They make good conversations pieces etc. Also, regardless of what some people think they do work just fine on carbon or stainless and even some PM steel. All of that and I have never spent more than $300 on a natural stone and for me half of that is the norm.

Now, practically speaking my synthetic stones are more efficient all around regardless of being a mid grit or a finisher. They cut faster and more uniform and are easier or at least more straightforward to use. What I guess I mean to say is that naturals are 100% unnecessary, imo, but I rather enjoy collecting and using them anyway. I think if it is practicality you seek then naturals are not the route to take but that may not be true either. Some naturals are very practical synthetic replacements, for me. Igarashi, Aizu and Ohira suita for example.

Having said that, I would not spend $4000 on one stone even if I was using some other fellas money! I might by 10 $400 stones, though. :rofl2:

Just the random thoughts of a newer natural stone user.

 

[gic]

And there are the thai natural stones which are very reasonably priced (there are many threads about them)...

 

[Benuser]

... and Blue Belgian and coticule...

 

[Krassi]

Well since most stones are sold like collectors items you have multipliers in the price.

is it fullsize 205x75mm? = then its much more expensive
is it thicker than 40mm = then its much more expensive
are all corners on top on the stone and its rectangular? = then its much more expensive
does it have fancy stamps that are of course useless? = then its much more expensive
does it come from a famous mine? = then its much more expensive
is it very clean without any lines that are mostly cosmetic? = then its much more expensive
is there a maruka stamp on it? = then its super duper wuper much more expensive for no reason )

I will try some thuringian green finishers in the future maybe.. in the area of finishers you often find better vintage stuff in europe than you will ever find from kyoto mines.
Some of my best stones are unknown stones or ugly bastard stones.. Well and its known that i "love to gamble" for my stones and i only bought 4 stones from a stoneseller... well the ao renge from watanabe is of course awesome! ) but looks like a midget next to my new one.


well whetstones are a crazy thing! every stone is unique and you will never be able to say "ok i have seen it all and i know everything" .. any new stone is a new experience even if you have 5 of the same mine allready
a seller can guarantee you no gambling and chance of picking a bad stone! so without experience its nuts to just blindly buy something that you only saw on a picture.

soo TL/TR
you often dondt know why stone A is cheap and stone B ist super expensive.
But there are reasons and since they are collectors items its ok. But you often think "*** this piece of debris is XXX dollrars ..screeeeetccchhhiing of doom!"

 

[dwalker]

Case in point. Here is a near fullsize stone from an unknown mine. It is covered in black renge and is immediately my favorite finisher for gyutos. It is crazy fast and leaves a incredibly toothy ~5k edge that seems to last forever. AFTER shipping from Japan, I have less than $60 in it. By the way, if anybody has any idea what it is, I would love to know so I can source more like it.

 

[nevrknow]

Case in point. Here is a near fullsize stone from an unknown mine. It is covered in black renge and is immediately my favorite finisher for gyutos. It is crazy fast and leaves a incredibly toothy ~5k edge that seems to last forever. AFTER shipping from Japan, I have less than $60 in it. By the way, if anybody has any idea what it is, I would love to know so I can source more like it.

Wow. +1 on that stone. You find more put me on the list for one

And as said above try the koppas. I have more koppas than full size stones. They work exactly the same. I could see if someone sharpened professionally may feel the need for full size. But sharpening for me is a hobby into itself therefore I do not NEED fullsize. May be easier for some people with a bigger stone but smaller ones do just as well. Plus you can try out cheaper koppas and when you hit that WOW factor in 1 certain stone THEN you can take out a mortgage or 2 and buy the full size stone.

 

[Krassi]

Well there are tons of those and all.. the problem is to find the jewels
Thats what i do for 3 years now and its super gambling..

well and i wouldnt look for koppas but for thin stones! koppas are mostly debris but thin ones are as good as thick stone.. its often that thin stones are very high quality because 1) they got used for many years 2) its easier to dig out a thin stone than a big 4-5cm stone from mining.. like with the production of processor chips or displays.

anything under 200x70mm do i regard as to small .. holy crap this sounds stupid but i actually despise small stones as i only have big or super big ones.
but well 150x100mm is a awesome size and they are often cheap! you mostly dondt use the full 200mm on the stone..on my uchigumoris i would actually be ok with a super short one.

oh regarding this stone.. it does not look like typical ao renge. ao renge is very randomly and not this regular usually (like on my star destroyer https://postimg.org/image/e6qb3g5md/ and also on my watanabe ao renge ohira and on different okudo ao renge i got)
i forgot but i guess this has also a special name what you got..

...but maybe i am wrong and if it works then its awesome!! thats also what i think about stones .. and it makes me more happy to accidentially intentionally get a super sick stone then just ordering it with zero risk )..yep iam crazy and its my hobby

 

[dwalker]

I'm learning alot, at no small cost, though. I have 19 more stones to be shipped this week. I'm still sorting through the batch I just got and all indications are that every one is worth what I paid. I will be testing stones for some time and as I can't keep them all, look out in BST for some very reasonably priced stones soon.

 

[Krassi]

19!! ) well i knew you were as crazy as me

well you get what you pay for is also something i learned! Japanese sellers are not dumb.

yeah same here look out on BST for lots of stuff from me ..(something like that http://postimg.org/image/do0u4we45/ ) .. i did 2 hours testing and making photos today and stopped me from getting more stones.. wich is hard.. because sunday is stone day nr1
i love to try stuff and every 2nd or 3rd stone is so awesome that i will keep it.

of course its non sense to have so much but well .. who cares i like all my knifes and all my stones.

 

[dwalker]

My philosophy is to buy alot of stones and sell anything that is redundredundant. I am impressed with the quality so far and I am having fun learning along the way.

 

[valgard]

Just a note, that looks like 胡麻 = Goma = “sesame seeds” all over that stone, not Ao renge but that stone looks sweet nonetheless. Have you tried it on cladding?

Case in point. Here is a near fullsize stone from an unknown mine. It is covered in black renge and is immediately my favorite finisher for gyutos. It is crazy fast and leaves a incredibly toothy ~5k edge that seems to last forever. AFTER shipping from Japan, I have less than $60 in it. By the way, if anybody has any idea what it is, I would love to know so I can source more like it.

 

[dwalker]

Just a note, that looks like 胡麻 = Goma = “sesame seeds” all over that stone, not Ao renge but that stone looks sweet nonetheless. Have you tried it on cladding?

Thank you for the clarification. I have tried it on iron cladding. Pretty dark on the jigane and consistent relitavely fine scratch pattern. Misty on the hagane. I will post a picture tomorrow.

 

[OliverNuther]

Thanks for the info guys, very interesting. It's reassuring to know that the expensive finishers are very long lasting, I think I'd cry or stroke out if I saw thousands of bucks literally dissolving in front of my eyes as I used it.

The whole J-nats thing seems like a rabbit hole within a rabbit hole.

 

[dwalker]

Thanks for the info guys, very interesting. It's reassuring to know that the expensive finishers are very long lasting, I think I'd cry or stroke out if I saw thousands of bucks literally dissolving in front of my eyes as I used it.

The whole J-nats thing seems like a rabbit hole within a rabbit hole.

I have a suita I've been using alot for a couple of years and I bet I've worn less than 1/2 MM. At that rate, a 20mm thick stone will outlast me.

 

[wbusby1]

@OP, lots of good info here already and I know you said j-nats, but if you want absurd value on natural whetstones, try t-nats. Thai natural stones: good stones, freaking huge, and so cheap it leaves you feeling guilty.

 

[dwalker]

As promised, here is the "budget" stone in action.

These pics are with no oil. To say this guy is a good value at $60 is a gross understatement.

 

[TheCaptain]

Mic drop.

 

[dwalker]

Here is another from the same batch. It cost me a good bit more, but still a great value. I was initially thinking about selling it but I've had a change if heart. It is a good bit finer than the other, but is still quite fast. I have no idea what it is, but I like it.

After about 15 strokes on this little petty

It brightens cladding and core and is super consistent. These pics represent about 2 or three minutes per knife. These stones can do much better.

 

[K813zra]

Here is another from the same batch. It cost me a good bit more, but still a great value. I was initially thinking about selling it but I've had a change if heart. It is a good bit finer than the other, but is still quite fast. I have no idea what it is, but I like it.

After about 15 strokes on this little petty

It brightens cladding and core and is super consistent. These pics represent about 2 or three minutes per knife. These stones can do much better.

I prefer the darker contrast from the other stone you posted. It seems like you got an amazing deal on that one. This one is nice too, though!

 

[Krassi]

Ah Thanks to valgard for the info about the dots.. i knew there was a name for this stuff

Well my best stone were also cheap as hell but will never leave my kitchen ..
very nice finish with that stone!
I tried 15 stones yesterday and also amazed that they all do their job.. speed and ook is often the big difference, but also not so big difference.. and most important "comfort" !.. big stones are more fun to use...

oh ill post some pictures of my best stones with the results and slurry, color blablab 8ter.. i also got the some with new stuff i got..
Some were expensive and some totally cheap as mentioned.

 

[valgard]

that looks like a super score dwalker

 

[KimBronnum]

Reg. expensive stones and price(retension). In the four or so years I´ve been collecting jnats, prices have generally increased about 20-30 % for Awasedo finishers.
This, combined with the low to none wear of the harder jnats, I would expect that sought after, full size finishers that have been looked after in all the right ways from one of the "brand" mines, would sell for more than payed for it after some years. The big problem, however, is wether one has a lot of money to invest in jnats. Naturally there are no guarantees but this is my fairly educated guess.
This is also what I hope for, as it has been my excuse to my wife - lets buy Jnats and Shiges. I can play with it for 20 years and be happy and then we´ll sell the lot for what I payed for it
All stones and knives must be used. Anything other than that is a shame. That is my opinion.
- Kim

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

It feels like jnats shine on blades that cut well and/or sharpen easily. If you have a very easy to sharpen blade (a Shig or a Watanabe, for instance), it is easy to get a bigger than necessary burr on a synth, so you are taking more steel than you need. With jnats everything is slower, so there is more time to feel what's going on with your sharpening. Of course, jnats are beautiful and its beauty might also be a factor that influence its price along with other factors already said by others before (size, shape, mine of origin, speed, which layer it comes from, purity, color, existence and type of inclusions etc).

 

[valgard]

It feels like jnats shine on blades that cut well and/or sharpen easily. If you have a very easy to sharpen blade (a Shig or a Watanabe, for instance), it is easy to get a bigger than necessary burr on a synth, so you are taking more steel than you need. With jnats everything is slower, so there is more time to feel what's going on with your sharpening. Of course, jnats are beautiful and its beauty might also be a factor that influence its price along with other factors already said by others before (size, shape, mine of origin, speed, which layer it comes from, purity, color, existence and type of inclusions etc).

Just one thing, I have a couple Jnats that are finer than my Kitayama and faster by a good margin, there is a small Okudo shiro suita that eats steel away.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Just one thing, I have a couple Jnats that are finer than my Kitayama and faster by a good margin, there is a small Okudo shiro suita that eats steel away.

There will always be very fast jnats, but they being faster than synths at approximately same grit is not the rule, it's the exception, specially if you are taking into account not only finishers, but also course and middle grit stones. Anyway, my point is that there is an advantage in being slower too.

 

[Razor]

There is also an aesthetic aspect to Jnats. Some of the more expensive stones are priced like jewelry. Beautiful patterns etc. Nagura are also getting pricy due to demand and scarcity. Good Asano Koma are getting hard to find and great ones can cost as much as a good base stone. Big pieces of Botan for base stones can be very pricy. We are competing with sword polishers, wood carvers and straight razor users for the limited supply.