Japanese or North American - who makes a better knife?

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I guess we're talking about double-bevel knives only in this discussion. I like using single bevels - lately I've been using traditional kiritsuke a fair bit, for example. Single-bevel knives are a whole new learning curve that knifemakers outside of Japan have yet to start tackling in earnest.

If we take the whole gamut of cooking knives, then I couldn't answer this question because it really would be apples vs oranges. I use single-bevels often enough that I honestly couldn't exclude them to simplify the consideration of cooking knives.

If I restrict the matter to double-bevels only, the only North American knifemaker whose work I've used is Devin's so I simply do not have sufficient breadth of experience on this side to have a well-grounded opinion on the question.
 
ya i too am curious about the single bevel side of this issue... its not that american makers cant make single bevel knives... its just that ya dont see many making them. i guess really its that these makers arent being asked to make them so that is the real issue in the end.

all the people i know that use single bevels have been a professional cook at one time. many that see my yanagi still say hey thats neat but when they pick up a chef knife they will say wow where can i get me one of these. anyway its exciting to see so many knife makers producing kitchen knives.
 
Chef Niloc said:
Acutely given resent events I tack back what I sad. I have no preference to any maker, I think every knife is equally good.
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Come on Colin you are going to need to elaborate on that one.
 
Single bevel - Japan
Double bevel - USA
 
I'm a bicycle guy, and know way more about the building and design of steel-framed bicycles than people should ;) That being said, the differentiation between the amazing Japanese custom framebuilders and US bicycle framebuilders seems to be along the same lines as that between US and Japanese knifemakers.

In Japan, there is a concept called wabi-sabi, or the beauty in imperfection/impermanence. American bicycle framebuilders produce some of the most immaculate, unbelievably perfect frames possible -- literally no possible improvement available. However, Japanese framebuilders, when building their frame, won't necessarily remove the last little bits that indicate hand-madeness -- file marks, a slight amount of overheating here and there, etc. This doesn't make the resultant bicycle less wonderful, just less perfected.

I've seen the same sort of aesthetic in the handmade knives I've had the fortune to handle -- little bits of the maker still visible in the work on the knives. Now, I have not had the chance to handle some of the wonderful output of the US folks on this forum and outside, but from the photos I've seen, these knives represent the pinnacle of the knifemakers' art, in many ways difficult to over-perfect, as they remove all the marks of hand making and show the grace and dedication of many hours put in to perfect their art. The Japanese /appreciate/ that sign of the maker, whereas we see the perfection of the resultant object as the peak of the handbuilders' art. It's a difference in philosophy rather than talent, and something that's to be appreciated rather than seen as a difference in quality.

Why say that one is better than the other, when we can appreciate each for what they are?
 
Wabi sabi is bull $hit. If I got a high end "wabi sabi" knife it would go back n a heart beat. That goes for gringos to.
 
You're not okay with imperfections at all? So Takedas (which have the imperfected kuroichi finish) is unacceptable? Slightly uneven taper from heel to toe on the spine?
 
The Takeda knife IS perfected in its context.
 
sashae said:
You're not okay with imperfections at all? So Takedas (which have the imperfected kuroichi finish) is unacceptable? Slightly uneven taper from heel to toe on the spine?
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Fore me, it depends on the price point. Full blown high end custom? I would like it to be pretty close to perfect, yes.

I know Salty doesn't like Takedas anyway, and he sent back a custom Kramer because of some "wabi-sabi" asymmetrical issues. So, no, he is not okay with imperfections.
 
SpikeC said:
The Takeda knife IS perfected in its context.
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+1

I would have to say that by far Japanese makers have the general advantage over Americans. Don't get me wrong here, some of the stuff I have seen from Americans is as good if not much better than a lot of Japanese work. Most rustic, KU J blades beat the hell out of anything that comes from mass produced America. Also, as far as single bevel knives go, Japan is miles ahead of us for production. There are makers going for single bevel knives, but their stuff is out of most people's price range, so it would be hard to judge performance.

All this being said, if you put the best Japanese gyuto up to the best American gyuto, I have a feeling that the US one would win. Just from what I have read and seen on these forums, it seems like American makers are more willing to push the boundaries and try new things.
 
Guess I'll continue to enjoy my abominations ;) I like seeing the hand of the maker in the things that I use -- overperfection isn't to my taste, what can I say.
 
sashae said:
Guess I'll continue to enjoy my abominations ;) I like seeing the hand of the maker in the things that I use -- overperfection isn't to my taste, what can I say.
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To each his own. I never understood what was the big deal about Takeda. Every Takeda knife I have seen, I have seen about 4 or 5 (customized them, so inspected them up close) had below-average grind, wasn't straight and had some other issues. Speaking of power of hype.

M
 
Indeed! I like kurouchi knives in general, and there's something dramatically appealing to me about a really rough-hewn looking tool being so sharp and precise. I'm not nearly as educated as you (Marko) or Salty with regards to the smaller details of knives (for instance, I don't know what you mean by "below average grind") however the lack of rounding on the choil/spine is a bit much for me, but really my only complaint...
 
I haven't used a takeda, but didn't they used to have a concave grind? If this is true, that would explain the bendability of some takedas.
Either way, many MANY people love them, so I bet they do a great job. Hype helps, but performance creates hype.
 
sashae said:
Why say that one is better than the other, when we can appreciate each for what they are?
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Because knives unlike paintings are tools and are meant to be used. Anything that diminishes their functionality is a flaw. Personally, I find iron cladding a show stopper. Iron cladding doesn't even patina nicely and interacts with the taste of food.
 
Lefty said:
I haven't used a takeda, but didn't they used to have a concave grind? If this is true, that would explain the bendability of some takedas.
Either way, many MANY people love them, so I bet they do a great job. Hype helps, but performance creates hype.
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The ones I have seen were flat forged with a light convex grind at the edge (.5-.75"). The angle of the grind was uneven.

M
 
rockbox said:
Because knives unlike paintings are tools and are meant to be used. Anything that diminishes their functionality is a flaw. Personally, I find iron cladding a show stopper. Iron cladding doesn't even patina nicely and interacts with the taste of food.
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+1,000,000

I'm over Moritaka and any knife w/ iron cladding becasue of exactly that.
 
Perhaps it's because I typically cook in home environments and can wipe or rinse at will, I have had no issues w the iron cladding on a number of Takedas. I also haven't had any issues with the bending that some have reported.

I wouldn't choose any of my Takedas for a pro work environment though. I don't even choose them for my classes.

As much as I like and enjoy my Takedas - and they are my favorite double-beveled knives to use - I don't consider them best-of-breed objectively. They happen to suit me very well but they aren't the pinnacle.

I too believe that perfection without flaws and with supreme consistency are requisites for something to be considered among the best of the best. I don't think this is necessarily a matter of cultural outlook: remember what Japanese industry did in the automotive sector and electronics.

Bringing things back to the original topic though, I think "the best" discussions of any kind will always hinge on a whole series of individual assumptions and preferences. Then there will be knives where we can personally really like but can also acknowledge aren't going to suit everyone.
 
Salty, your demeanor continues to crack me up.

I have to say that when it come to the high-end, extreme customs, there is one supreme quality, what I believe is the sign of true virtuosity. I call it the "illusion of intentionality". Everything, every part, every source, becomes unquestionable in it's use, existence, and placement. Everything about a thing, be it food, knives, or music, is done with the full knowledge, care, and approval of the maker.

The desire and drive to create is a quality passed to us by our Maker, who creates, and created us in his image. We have an innate need, like children, to imitate our Father, to wear his work clothes and do our best to make them look like they fit.

To me, that is what these kind of $3,000 kitchen knives are about. People proving their mastery.

Wabi-Sabi is not about mastery, it's about accepting that you are part of something bigger. There is nothing wrong with that, I personally love the concept. But no Wabi-Sabi practices will every win in a case of "which is better". Because those Japanese knives aren't about BEING better. They lose because they do not want to win.

However, there are plenty of makers in Japan that are going for extreme perfection and high performance. I still believe Americans have the edge here(no pun intended).


I give it 3 years before there is a consensus that Butch makes better single bevels than 98% of Japan.
 
I've got a Takeda Nakiri, and I find the contention that it might in any way bend or flex amusing. I couldn't say unless I got to play with one, but I doubt I'd like a Takeda Gyuto or Sujihiki as much.
 
I just thought of something. If we're talking "as a whole/team", then there is no contest, the Japanese win, hands down. Konosuke, Misono, Suisin, etc beat anything that is more "readily available" from here. However, if we're talking the top makers and top products, North Americans still get my vote.
 
johndoughy said:
Wabi-Sabi is not about mastery, it's about accepting that you are part of something bigger. There is nothing wrong with that, I personally love the concept. But no Wabi-Sabi practices will every win in a case of "which is better". Because those Japanese knives aren't about BEING better. They lose because they do not want to win.
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"Its not about being better than your oponent, but than yourself from yesterday".
 
l r harner said:
i like that

BTW if im to be a top single bevel guy i gues si had better start looking for big wheels
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Have you thought about using the wheel off of a spin exercise bike. I don't know how wide they are.
 
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