Kato not for you ?

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fashion.

seriously, ive been on these forums since maybe 2002 (kf then) I can remember Nenox S1's for nothing as they were too soft and wantanabes being cheap as too thick when everyone wanted a laser, I've been here so long that I can remember when VG10 was cool lol.

Katos will have their time and dip, once they are less cool.
 
I had a 270 workhorse gyuto. The Kato micro chipped extensively while processing pineapples if I recall. The real issue I had with it was the weight distribution. It naturally landed in a part of the profile where it made the least board contact. It just seemed counterintuitive to me. It helped me realize that weight distribution and useful board contact were two major performance characteristics for me. The Kato did cut very well after some thinning. I am glad I tried it but it just wasn't for me.
 
Great knife, real unique, could slay it's way through a day of heavy prep, does not fit into my day to day work rotation at all and I could not imagine using it to cook a small meal at home
 
Meh Kato wasn't for me. I didn't feel the magic. I don't think they are bad knives just that it didn't live up to the hype. Plus the handle was the size of a rolling pin.
 
I got a used Kato 240, and immediately found it quite heavy, and not the knife for me. Maybe I would have gotten used to it if I'd kept it and used it for awhile. But I managed to get a 210, which I really like a lot--one of my keepers. Both of these were workhorse versions.
 
I still have one, a 240 workhorse gyuto work western handle. It works for me in every way a knife should. It's also my benchmark that I measure other knives up against. Well, one of them at least.
If I recall, one of the plusses the workhorse has over the OG version is a bit taller profile. This is BIG for me.

Not every knife is for everybody. Kato and shig deserve their reputation as fantastic knives, but the over hype greys to be a bit too much.
When I first joined the forum Masamato KS and Laser gyutos were all the rave. Shig had an underlying presence of badassness. It was discussed some, and they were hard to come by. Kato seemed scarce, illusive, and the free that had one spoke Very highly of them. Both were (and still are ) relatively expensive, so it was hard to wrap my head around spending that much money.

But I eventually tried both. Glad I did. Love my kato.
 
I've been on these forums long enough to have seen quite a few iterations, and at least 15-20 "It Makers". It's all part of the fun, I suppose, chasing the newest and best, but to me, very few have lived up to the hype. At the risk of leaving one or two out, I will say that the only ones I can think of that have met my expectations, or even surpassed them are Bloodroot Blades, Butch Harner, Murray Carter, and Andy Billipp. All American, come to think of it.

I had a Kato 180 petty and it was really nice, but I just can't see the point of buying a knife you have to thin OOTB.
 
Lefty said:
I had a Kato 180 petty and it was really nice, but I just can't see the point of buying a knife you have to thin OOTB.
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Not one of the four Katos I've had including the 180 petty needed any thinning ootb.
 
TheDispossessed said:
Not one of the four Katos I've had including the 180 petty needed any thinning ootb.
Click to expand...

I'm not being argumentative, but that does surprise me. I'm not saying they're not very good knives, but I don't get the hype, that's all. I should point out, however, that I don't cook in a commercial kitchen.
 
My only experience is with three 240 western gyutos. I will say that neither needed thinning, in fact the two I sold I thought were too thin behind the edge. They kind of lacked the Kato magic the other one had. That's the one I kept.
I don't doubt others may have needed thinning from the get go, and i certainly don't doubt Tom. Heck, I've handled a couple duds here and there from other makers (as some may recall), and I've certainly read about others experiencing similar experiences.
 
I've had 3 now, all workhorse and the western was my favorite. I really like them all though. I did thin the 240 a bit ootb and for some reason this is one of only a few knive that I've preferred the 210 over the 240.
 
I think the hype and scarcity has a lot to do with it too. My sous chef used mine and because it wasn't magical he was disappointed. Until he used it for a full two days then he fell in love.
 
TheDispossessed said:
I have one workhorse 210, and a 'stock' 210. Love them both.
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If you're up for a bit more writing on the subject, I'd be curious to hear more of how these two compare? Lemme guess...

Workhorse: more belly, pointier type, more Kanji, probably more expensive, different handle
Original non-W: much more rounded tip, less belly, a more Japanese flatter profile which probably suits a shorter knife (210 or less) over a longer one

Do the steels seem at all different? How's the grind on the original; I assume it would still have the characteristic mid-blade wedge shape which I've tried to describe as a 'v' grind? How about general weight and thickness?
 
Lefty said:
I'm not being argumentative, but that does surprise me. I'm not saying they're not very good knives, but I don't get the hype, that's all. I should point out, however, that I don't cook in a commercial kitchen.
Click to expand...
Tom,
I don't think anyone's opinion of a knife should be lessened here by their lack of experience in a professional kitchen. I did work in pro kitchen for years and trust me, most cooks and even chefs are not nearly as interested in their knives as this bunch. It can be shocking actually. Most of the difference in use can come down to sheer volume honestly. Cooking and cutting for 2 people a night versus 200, that might color how you see a knife.
Back to the original point of contention, All the Katos I've used were quite thin enough ootb, with incredibly thin tips (thinner than most lasers).
Cheers
Matteo
 
Asteger said:
If you're up for a bit more writing on the subject, I'd be curious to hear more of how these two compare? Lemme guess...

Workhorse: more belly, pointier type, more Kanji, probably more expensive, different handle
Original non-W: much more rounded tip, less belly, a more Japanese flatter profile which probably suits a shorter knife (210 or less) over a longer one

Do the steels seem at all different? How's the grind on the original; I assume it would still have the characteristic mid-blade wedge shape which I've tried to describe as a 'v' grind? How about general weight and thickness?
Click to expand...

You know, it was my original intention to compare the two knives here as i thought it would interest people. After a bit of thought I decided it would be best not to. I could get out the calipers and the scale and go nuts comparing the two knives but honestly with how these are made, i suspect they can vary as much piece to piece as between product 'lines'.
I really try to stay away from the sycophantic vendor worship we have here sometimes so trust me when i say, I really like both the knives and would have a tough time deciding which one would go first. The JNS workhorse has its own charms, i love Katos kanji so more of it is a bonus to me. the 'stock' knife i got is a little thinner and taller and lighter, and is actually the pointier of the two.
Yes, if you look hard enough here and there non JNS katos will come up somewhat cheaper, but i don't take any issue with Maksims pricing either. He's got a business and a family.
Cheers
Matteo
 
TheDispossessed said:
I really try to stay away from the sycophantic vendor worship we have here sometimes
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Not sure if maybe you meant vendor, or maybe maker, in which case hear, hear! If the latter, please no one ever mention [email protected]!s@ again - at least for the next little while because I'm sick of it. Get a life, or maybe just try to think of another knife! :nunchucks:
 
TheDispossessed said:
Tom,
I don't think anyone's opinion of a knife should be lessened here by their lack of experience in a professional kitchen. I did work in pro kitchen for years and trust me, most cooks and even chefs are not nearly as interested in their knives as this bunch. It can be shocking actually. Most of the difference in use can come down to sheer volume honestly. Cooking and cutting for 2 people a night versus 200, that might color how you see a knife.
Back to the original point of contention, All the Katos I've used were quite thin enough ootb, with incredibly thin tips (thinner than most lasers).
Cheers
Matteo
Click to expand...

Looks like you completely get what I'm saying. I have a feeling it might be a knife for high volume. I mean, I cook, and I cook a lot (between the firehall and home), but it's not the same thing.

I honestly want to give the gyuto a try, as I've only had the petty... Which was fat...honestly, when I grind a blade, and hit my Kato grind spot, I go thinner. But, perhaps I got a fatty.
 
Lefty said:
I honestly want to give the gyuto a try, as I've only had the petty... Which was fat...honestly, when I grind a blade, and hit my Kato grind spot, I go thinner. But, perhaps I got a fatty.
Click to expand...

L, just to check: you know about the geometry and thicker middle girth, right? You really get a more conventional sharpening experience in the front 1/3 or so of the blade, and back 1/3 or so too, but things are all out of whack in the middle from where you might set your parameters from. They're not straightforward if you don't know what's coming.

I had a 180 Workhorse petty before, as you did, and this grind was still in evidence. Yes, the feeling is you need to thin in the mid-bit and it is 'fat'. I'd say it was definitely this way with the first 240 gyuto I had too and I also thinned the 180 petty; the other 2 I've had haven't needed thinning, I've felt. Anyway, I think people get these knives and the geometrical features/grind hasn't been well-explained and publicised, and so can throw people off, and so this could have been your experience too.
 
I use my fingers and run them along the bottom 3rd, edge, and middle.

But why is the middle third different on a Kato? Seems funny.
 
Lefty said:
But why is the middle third different on a Kato? Seems funny.
Click to expand...
glestain said:
Because its hand made??
Click to expand...

No, not due to variations because it's handmade.

The geometry isn't designed to be uniform from tip to heel as with (almost any other?) knife. There have been 2-3 recent threads, so please check there too if it helps. Basically, the thicker middle portion tapers toward the tip and heel, forcing food away at an angle from the edge and middle portion, but not a uniform angle with respect to the edge. The blade runs much thinner toward the tip and heel with more width in the middle. For lack of a better term I called this a 'v' grind due to the shape. Cris Anderson, referencing some of his sword nous and citing Kato as a sword-maker referred to a different term, which I can't remember. Very surprised this wasn't described before, but seems that it hasn't despite the few years of Kato adoration. Made this quick picture from before if helps; the v-thing refers to the front/face, not the back if you're a righty:

Kato%20V_zpscouiovo3.png
 
That kind of geometry is not part of Japanese swordmaking. Cris was referring to the meat, which is convexity and its distribution between the shinogi and edge, which is not what you're describing.

That kind of geometry is a pretty normal consequence of his manufacturing methods. You are reading a lot into it.
 
This reminds me a bit of the result of using a slack belt with the blade (or handle, or whatever you're shaping) pointing up, so that the grinder is running heel to tip (parallel to the cutting edge). The tension is tighter towards the wheels of the grinder, making it naturally "eat" more quickly at the ends, and more slowly toward the middle. I'm not saying that is why a Kato is ground this way, but it's food for thought.
 
Yeah, sounds like a similar effect although he uses a sen
 
And a sen is essentially a drawknife, correct?
 
"So knife cut good ??? " ( as I grunt and drag my knuckles back to my cave). lol. My level of knowledge is not up to snuff with you guys !. I've been a cook/chef for the last 13 years, but I've only recently become addicted to Japanese knives (1.5 years). And admittedly, I'm extremely easy to be swayed by the opinions of strangers on forums. Honestly, with the exception of a few purchases, most of my knives have come via Internet forum research.
 
Also, I hope I didn't ruffle any feathers, I know some people have loyalty to makers. Maybe I was subconsciously looking for catharsis from an opportunity slipped by. I still want to try one, I just wasn't comfortable with such an expensive leap of faith. Thanks for all your insight
 
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