Mamma mia!
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Nice work!
heirkb
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Doesn't look like he'll need to given the serious hamaguri that seems to be on that knife. Then again, what do I know? lol
this picture made me laugh
thats one solution i guess
well done
thats one solution i guess
well done
Andrew H
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this picture made me laugh
thats one solution i guess
well done
No kidding. I love how the lines just drop off at such an angle that they disappear for a mm. Mind telling us how you went about achieving it?
JBroida covered pretty much all but as it's a huge thread and I'm a bit rushed; It looks without a doubt to be a user mistake, those kind of chips are quite commonly seen when a beginner try to work through fish and don't know how to avoid the bones and only cut the weak spots in the fish with any cleaving/push-cutting action.
Attempting to temper a blade... Any blade, even HRC 60 and unless there has been years of study and experience in your background with cold-forged cutlery - forget about it, the refined spherodized molecular structure in the knife will change and god knows what will happen as a result. Send it back to the maker and explain the situation or possibly to someone specializing in the area.
This is the nature of mid to high-quality and cold-forged blades that has been hammered and water quenched. Without the needed skill comes potential catastrophic failure and the nature of use with a Deba only adds to make it worse.
Even Shigefusa style Deba's chip with ease without proper knowledge of how to cut the fish and handle the knife. Regardless of how expensive the knife is the steel can't make up for negative force against something like bones in large fish. This isn't about arrogance or acting superior, these are skills one must have in order to use these kind of blades correctly. If we show the knife the respect it deserves by educating ourselves then they will bless you with a lifetime of screaming sharp use.
Happy cutting everyone
Attempting to temper a blade... Any blade, even HRC 60 and unless there has been years of study and experience in your background with cold-forged cutlery - forget about it, the refined spherodized molecular structure in the knife will change and god knows what will happen as a result. Send it back to the maker and explain the situation or possibly to someone specializing in the area.
This is the nature of mid to high-quality and cold-forged blades that has been hammered and water quenched. Without the needed skill comes potential catastrophic failure and the nature of use with a Deba only adds to make it worse.
Even Shigefusa style Deba's chip with ease without proper knowledge of how to cut the fish and handle the knife. Regardless of how expensive the knife is the steel can't make up for negative force against something like bones in large fish. This isn't about arrogance or acting superior, these are skills one must have in order to use these kind of blades correctly. If we show the knife the respect it deserves by educating ourselves then they will bless you with a lifetime of screaming sharp use.
Happy cutting everyone
Eamon Burke
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More like a macrobevel.
It sure is pretty now though! Any chance for pictures of the backside?
Lol was looking on my phone screen and couldn't make out the pics enough to know if it was just a trick of the light
Eamon Burke
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Yeah, that's something I've always wondered about. If you have a chip or a user-induced overgrind that's deeper than the width of the zero bevel on the backside, I don't know how you fix it without over-flattening the backside.
I've heard of (and seen) the opposite happen - the initial edge is soft and rolly, but after a few sharpenings it's fine. This is generally due to overzealous use of power buffers causing the outer "shell" of steel to temper.
I was going to say that I don't see how you could end up with a chippy edge that sharpens away, but it occurred to me that "over quenching" might be the culprit -- with the outer shell of the steel acting as a cushion for the interior, sort of like clay does when creating a hamon.
Knifemakers, does that make any sense?
It's a bit like balancing a scale. In order to reach Ito-ura, the hollow has to be very thin in the first place - so establishing one after a large chip is my usual procedure. One needs to focus the pressure with your fingers -only- on the steel laminated to the iron (only the ball of your fingers on the steel, not on Jigane at all! It will remove the Ito-ura and restore the balance to the "scale") and keep the knife stable on the stone while putting decent pressure on the end that makes the edge and about 1/3 to 1/4 of the same pressure on the area where the hollow reaches the spine.
Naturally you have to grind the chip away but if you do the Uraoshi in the manner I described above then the surface towards the edge will become smaller and kiwer and the contacting area on the stone smaller as well (leading to Ito-ura with enough time spent) as the "supporting" flat near the spine remains practically the same size so you're constantly forcing the contacting area near the edge of the hollow to become smaller and eventually it reaches thread-back - Ito-ura.
Very rough description though but I hope it helps you give an idea. The hollow at the spine is basically the life of the craft, as long as you don't grind there you will always be able to repair practically anything and also restore the Ito-ura. Making an Ito-ura the first time can be very hard and time-consuming however as one has to carefully observe how much pressure you put and what results it gives and then correct it.
In essence, what we are trying to perform with an Ito-ura is a hollow that is completely flat yet sloping a little in nature to have a tiny contact area where it leads to the edge.
Quite rushed right now and I'm sure much of it isn't making sense. Made a quick edit but will return later tonight.
Naturally you have to grind the chip away but if you do the Uraoshi in the manner I described above then the surface towards the edge will become smaller and kiwer and the contacting area on the stone smaller as well (leading to Ito-ura with enough time spent) as the "supporting" flat near the spine remains practically the same size so you're constantly forcing the contacting area near the edge of the hollow to become smaller and eventually it reaches thread-back - Ito-ura.
Very rough description though but I hope it helps you give an idea. The hollow at the spine is basically the life of the craft, as long as you don't grind there you will always be able to repair practically anything and also restore the Ito-ura. Making an Ito-ura the first time can be very hard and time-consuming however as one has to carefully observe how much pressure you put and what results it gives and then correct it.
In essence, what we are trying to perform with an Ito-ura is a hollow that is completely flat yet sloping a little in nature to have a tiny contact area where it leads to the edge.
Quite rushed right now and I'm sure much of it isn't making sense. Made a quick edit but will return later tonight.
Eamon Burke
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Nice. Sure is pretty!
Bieniek, well it's quite obvious to me that you didn't perform an Uraoshi and need some good flat coarse synthetics. Those kinds of jobs are common for a polisher and performing the Uraoshi is actually seen as much more important than the front bevel and always the first thing we repair in traditional JP knives. While it will cut and cut well, it won't be the same performance as if it was truly flat both on the Ura and the front bevel as I saw that you concaved the Jigane with your finger stones. So there's no accurately flat surfaces on either side of your knife, limiting it's performance as the edge can't reach the same small size of the sharpening stone particles due to it not being completely touching the stone.
I wish to express however that this isn't criticism, you have done a great job with your knife and you spent many hours on it to make it look good again. I'm explaining the proper traditional procedure of how a polisher repairs knives like these. Please do not be offended, this is what I do during my day and I'm only trying to share the proper information as I know extremely few chefs that knows how to establish an ito-ura.
It looks like a fine Degyuba though.
I wish to express however that this isn't criticism, you have done a great job with your knife and you spent many hours on it to make it look good again. I'm explaining the proper traditional procedure of how a polisher repairs knives like these. Please do not be offended, this is what I do during my day and I'm only trying to share the proper information as I know extremely few chefs that knows how to establish an ito-ura.
It looks like a fine Degyuba though.
I used DMT blue for the starters. Then JNS 1k. Then my small setup of three jnats.
Then all different kinds of fingerstones and pressures, then two polishing compunds on hard felt. Just to bring out the depth.
Thanks Maxim, I really dont think my hands are right, not quite yet But Im trying hard
TB, yes, there is a huge-arse microbevel.
But as Herikb mentioned, there is starting of two-angled edge. The lower lower part of it isnt ground at all at much higher angle. It just looks huge because of the amount of metal that I had to remove.
Now, why would I do that and dont take more metal from above the bevel? Strength, which I believe this knife will need.
Schanop, If you have a king its possible to make it darker and not mirrored. But I dont have it anymore, and the effect from binsui or JNS 1K alone isnt too good lookin.
Jon, Andrew, I will try to get better photo of it. There is not much angle difference. The line looks crisp because I have steady hand during my strokes. And I didnt blended two bevels together, as I easily could, just cause I want the owner of the knife to see it. And remember what he did. This was just a stupid stupid waste of metal. Good metal
Then all different kinds of fingerstones and pressures, then two polishing compunds on hard felt. Just to bring out the depth.
Thanks Maxim, I really dont think my hands are right, not quite yet
But Im trying hardTB, yes, there is a huge-arse microbevel.
But as Herikb mentioned, there is starting of two-angled edge. The lower lower part of it isnt ground at all at much higher angle. It just looks huge because of the amount of metal that I had to remove.
Now, why would I do that and dont take more metal from above the bevel? Strength, which I believe this knife will need.
Schanop, If you have a king its possible to make it darker and not mirrored. But I dont have it anymore, and the effect from binsui or JNS 1K alone isnt too good lookin.
Jon, Andrew, I will try to get better photo of it. There is not much angle difference. The line looks crisp because I have steady hand during my strokes. And I didnt blended two bevels together, as I easily could, just cause I want the owner of the knife to see it. And remember what he did. This was just a stupid stupid waste of metal. Good metal
Andrew H
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I used DMT blue for the starters. Then JNS 1k. Then my small setup of three jnats.
Then all different kinds of fingerstones and pressures, then two polishing compunds on hard felt. Just to bring out the depth.
Thanks Maxim, I really dont think my hands are right, not quite yet
TB, yes, there is a huge-arse microbevel.
But as Herikb mentioned, there is starting of two-angled edge. The lower lower part of it isnt ground at all at much higher angle. It just looks huge because of the amount of metal that I had to remove.
Now, why would I do that and dont take more metal from above the bevel? Strength, which I believe this knife will need.
Schanop, If you have a king its possible to make it darker and not mirrored. But I dont have it anymore, and the effect from binsui or JNS 1K alone isnt too good lookin.
Jon, Andrew, I will try to get better photo of it. There is not much angle difference. The line looks crisp because I have steady hand during my strokes. And I didnt blended two bevels together, as I easily could, just cause I want the owner of the knife to see it. And remember what he did. This was just a stupid stupid waste of metal. Good metal
Thanks for the explanation, Bieniek. Great job.
Not offended at all.
Could you please elaborate?
Especially the bit on concaving jigane? Im just having a problem imagining what you mean, thats all, but Im very curious
At the heel where the geometry of the bevel falls down the Jigane seems to fall into a tiny concave. It looks like you didn't compensate enough to polish the laminated steel and iron equally as the iron is much softer. Perhaps you used Jizuya for the Jigane as well? It can also simply be the picture, judging these things by eye alone in person is hard enough.
@Halicon - is any of this that you're talking about appear to you as an issue or are you just being nit picky? I'm asking because even though I too can see little things I don't see any issues worth mentioning.
Dave, that is an excellent question!
These are extremely small details barely visible to the eye. For anyone except another professional polisher it would indeed be nickpicking (but it still affects the performance quite readily, it's just beyond or right at the level of our eyesight so it's easy for us to disregard) be more or less impossible to make out and that's in many cases the way it remains if you take very polished knives for example such as Shigefusa. Few can really appreciate just how much work goes into such a craft and the accuracy that they polish to (it is so accurate!).
It isn't until one starts to really put demands on the edge that these small factors come into action. Kiri Daikou with an Usuba for example will have one throwing fits if it isn't a true flat both on hollow and front bevel, but with the proper polish it isn't too hard to take translucent shavings from a Daikou radish. Double bevel knives such as Gyuto, Santoku and so on that doesn't have only one bevel also don't really need such an accurate and perfect aesthetic polish as the two bevels when they join together creates a far thicker edge than what the finishers we use for single bevels can achieve. Especially western double-bevels are heavily limited by this (around 8-10k grit is the limit of the edge in the beefy western double bevel) but the Japanese tend to keep very low angles and thin blades to still get a very keen edge.
Now I really have to run, this turned out really interesting so I have to drag myself away. If anyone have any further questions I will be back in a few hours.
These are extremely small details barely visible to the eye. For anyone except another professional polisher it would indeed be nickpicking (but it still affects the performance quite readily, it's just beyond or right at the level of our eyesight so it's easy for us to disregard) be more or less impossible to make out and that's in many cases the way it remains if you take very polished knives for example such as Shigefusa. Few can really appreciate just how much work goes into such a craft and the accuracy that they polish to (it is so accurate!).
It isn't until one starts to really put demands on the edge that these small factors come into action. Kiri Daikou with an Usuba for example will have one throwing fits if it isn't a true flat both on hollow and front bevel, but with the proper polish it isn't too hard to take translucent shavings from a Daikou radish. Double bevel knives such as Gyuto, Santoku and so on that doesn't have only one bevel also don't really need such an accurate and perfect aesthetic polish as the two bevels when they join together creates a far thicker edge than what the finishers we use for single bevels can achieve. Especially western double-bevels are heavily limited by this (around 8-10k grit is the limit of the edge in the beefy western double bevel) but the Japanese tend to keep very low angles and thin blades to still get a very keen edge.
Now I really have to run, this turned out really interesting so I have to drag myself away. If anyone have any further questions I will be back in a few hours.
Both of you guys, I would love to hear about all the small issues. If Jon also could join it, it would be great.
I really like to get criticized, it motivates me to get better. Please, do it.
I tried hard to get better shot on back and the angle difference in front. Those are my best efforts.
I really like to get criticized, it motivates me to get better. Please, do it.
I tried hard to get better shot on back and the angle difference in front. Those are my best efforts.
No criticisms from me and in fact other than just talk about different finishes (etc) I have nothing to say besides for a repair of this size this looks great.
yeah... looks just fine to me. I would not have done as crazy of a primary cutting edge for my own knives, but i really understand where you are coming from on this. If you wanted, you could do a bit more on the ura, but you can also just try it and see how it holds up. Also, be careful not to flatten out the profile too much overtime.
This is more just for general information for people reading:
When sharpening single bevel knives, the idea is that you move the shinogi line up at the same rate you move the edge up. This maintains the geometry of the knife over time. If you want to strengthen the edge (as was done here), this can be temporarily ignored. But usually thats the way things are done. Also, the shinogi line should stay parallel to the edge (and visa versa).
This is more just for general information for people reading:
When sharpening single bevel knives, the idea is that you move the shinogi line up at the same rate you move the edge up. This maintains the geometry of the knife over time. If you want to strengthen the edge (as was done here), this can be temporarily ignored. But usually thats the way things are done. Also, the shinogi line should stay parallel to the edge (and visa versa).
maxim
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Looks also great to me ! Nice work on ura and i think its good that you dont waist a lot of steel specially for a deba. On the micro-bevel or bevel, do what you think is best for you it is your knife and you going to use it, so do what you think is most comfortable
