Natural Stones: Who should make the plunge?

[bprescot]

In the six or so weeks I've been back on the boards I've been told three or four times to try out Natural Stones. It is hard for me, however, to separate if this suggestion is coming because the suggester is an avid sharpener and can appreciate subtle differences in the experience that someone like me, who cares only about getting a good working edge again, might not. Or does the refining process with a natural stone produce a superior edge somehow? (Someone once tried to explain something to that effect but my eyes glazed over once the phrase "dynamic scratch patterns" was used.)

Said differently, are natural stones mostly recommended for the result, the experience, or because collecting stuff is what we tend to do here.

Who should make the plunge and what options for toe-dipping exist?

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

If your goal is to have your sharpening done on hard-to-sharpen steels or if efficiency is key, synths can't be beat. It doesn't mean that naturals are bought only for collection purposes. In my experience, naturals offer some advantages: it's easier to have toothier (if compared to synths of roughly the same grit) and yet refined edges, it clogs much less, it doesn't require so much flattening, it is easier to deburr because it raises smaller burrs.

Naturals are slower and may be frustating if your technique is not yet up to it. I remember the first time i tried an Aizu and found the stone terribly hard, with less feedback than a 3k synth i used (Mizuyama) and with almost no abrading power. Today it is one of my favorite stones for a toothier edge. On the other hand, my first great moment with naturals was sharpening a 270mm Kochi gyuto on a Tsushima stone. There as almost no metal removed and the edge was wonderful.

In a nutshell, naturals feel to me more geared towards very special edges that you don't really need, but you would like to experience.

 

[inferno]

You need a heck of a lot more knowledge to know what to get with natural stones compared to synths.

 

[SeattleBen]

There appears to be no functional need for naturals outside of polishing that I can tell. The vocabulary to really understand naturals seems impenetrable without access to them to try out or a willingness to throw mountains of cash at them. It hasn't kept me from throwing some money at it.

 

[aaamax]

...(Someone once tried to explain something to that effect but my eyes glazed over once the phrase "dynamic scratch patterns" was used.)...

Post of the week right here. coffee out the nose on that one... lol.
I agree and there is a point of diminishing returns with nats. But I will say that certain stones really make for a superior edge over their synth counterparts.
Why this is I have no idea. Maybe the breaking down of the mud gives some kind of extra juju (read: refinement) but hell I don't know. But to me there is a big difference.
Cheers.

 

[nutmeg]

In the six or so weeks I've been back on the boards I've been told three or four times to try out Natural Stones. It is hard for me, however, to separate if this suggestion is coming because the suggester is an avid sharpener and can appreciate subtle differences in the experience that someone like me, who cares only about getting a good working edge again, might not. Or does the refining process with a natural stone produce a superior edge somehow? (Someone once tried to explain something to that effect but my eyes glazed over once the phrase "dynamic scratch patterns" was used.)

Said differently, are natural stones mostly recommended for the result, the experience, or because collecting stuff is what we tend to do here.

Who should make the plunge and what options for toe-dipping exist?

Yes, Jnats are superior above say #2k grit but it depends on the knives you want to sharpen. If the steel is soft like Wüsthof, Global or Shun you don't even need to go above #1,5k grit.

If you have good carbon knives then you can enjoy finer Jnats. The sharpness a soft uchigumori or a Maruo Yama shiro suita leaves is very different from anything you can get with synthetic.

Price is not very relevant with Jnats because they wear only a very little compared to synthetic so, a stone may be 5 times more expensive, will you still remember its price after 15 years?

 

[bprescot]

In my experience, naturals offer some advantages: it's easier to have toothier (if compared to synths of roughly the same grit) and yet refined edges, it clogs much less, it doesn't require so much flattening, it is easier to deburr because it raises smaller burrs.

The sharpness a soft uchigumori or a Maruo Yama shiro suita leaves is very different from anything you can get with synthetic.

This is interesting. I had always assumed that when someone said that the "finish" a jnat leaves is different, that that referred to a kasumi-like finish or the aesthetics of the finish. What both of the above seem to indicate is that the edge itself finishes a bit different. If I can get an edge as refined as I might get on a 6k but with the tooth/bite of a 2k finish... That sounds compelling to me...

 

[XooMG]

Synthetic stones can craze and crumble but you don't get obstacle courses like you can with a good suita.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

On easy to sharpen steels, i don't bother to use synths anymore from setting the bevel to the finishing stone; on hard to sharpen steels, setting the bevel is synths' job, but the finish is still on jnats. I wouldn't say the bite is similar to a 2k finish, but that at least my final edges won't skid over a tomato and yet feel more refined (less of that tearing feeling).

 

[lemeneid]

You need a heck of a lot more knowledge to know what to get with natural stones compared to synths.

Not really, with natural stones it’s more important to get to know a dealer you can trust because unless you personally worked the stone, you really wouldn’t know what you’re getting.

 

[nutmeg]

Synthetic stones can craze and crumble but you don't get obstacle courses like you can with a good suita.

you got worms in your drawers?

I could bet one won't really feel the obstacles on this soft stone.

 

[XooMG]

you got worms in your drawers?

I could bet one won't really feel the obstacles on this soft stone.

I've had to retire the stone until I break it down to slurry stones or fingerstones at some point.

 

[nutmeg]

I've had to retire the stone until I break it down to slurry stones or fingerstones at some point.

one of my old favorite Maruo Yama is going to become similar as yours.. :-(

 

[bprescot]

Synthetic stones can craze and crumble but you don't get obstacle courses like you can with a good suita.

Holy Crap! So, the big 4 divots are one thing, but there looks to be all sorts of smaller digs and gouges and air pockets etc etc... Is this normal or is this why everyone reiterates the semi-crapshoot nature of jnats?

 

[MrHiggins]

I'm with the OP in that I'm more interested in the functional edge rather than the ephemeral joy of the sharpening experience. That said, I'm glad I have a natural stone in my wet-stone arsenal (a full sized yaginoshima asagi that I paid $75 for). It puts on a nice gritty edge and, most importantly, it doesn't dish like a synthetic. I think it's worth getting one.

 

[bprescot]

I'm with the OP in that I'm more interested in the functional edge rather than the ephemeral joy of the sharpening experience. That said, I'm glad I have a natural stone in my wet-stone arsenal (a full sized yaginoshima asagi that I paid $75 for). It puts on a nice gritty edge and, most importantly, it doesn't dish like a synthetic. I think it's worth getting one.

That's where I think I'm landing. A stone in the rotation that can refine but still leave a nice bite. So is that what I need? A Yaginoshima Asagi? (BTW, is one word the mine/region and the other the strata/grit?)

 

[XooMG]

Holy Crap! So, the big 4 divots are one thing, but there looks to be all sorts of smaller digs and gouges and air pockets etc etc... Is this normal or is this why everyone reiterates the semi-crapshoot nature of jnats?

I don't want to arrogate any authority, but the scratches are from grinding on the surface to remove previous large crumbly nests. As old ones are ground away, new ones appear. The small pores are part of the classic suita charm.

This particular problem is only really an issue with suita and sometimes more porous midgrits. I think you can develop an eye for predicting higher risk stones (contrasty zones, loose strata, lots of visible pores, &c.), and that's one reason folks tell you to find trustworthy sources. Depending on who you're dealing with, you may want to be direct and specific if you want to play safe. I just tend to stay away from suita in general now, though I'm in the minority so you likely shouldn't worry too much.

 

[Uncle Mike]

What would be a good natural stone with the equivalent of a ~ 3000 grit synthetic stone? And what would such a thing cost and where could I get one?

 

[ryanjams]

Aizu would be in that realm, Watanabe has some on offer, or you may have luck with a wtb here as some forum members might have a few to spare... mine is a harder and finer example as fair as aizu go and it leaves a great edge, part of my work kit. I'd love to try a softer one out at some point, too. Maybe some of the finer aotos? My aizu is a little nicer for sharpening imo, while my "red aoto"--not a true aoto--is hands down the better polisher. Polishing is not really important to me so the aizu gets a lot more run. And they're cheap (as far as jnats go) - should be able to score one in the $100-200 range.

 

[refcast]

3000 grit. assuming you don't get huge or collector stones

(1) some tsushima, but they are hard and slower. around $200
(2) some medium fine to fine aoto. medium hardness. around $200-300
(3) aizu definitely. $150-300
(4) chu nagura. expensive and small if you can find it. too rare
(5) maybe some coarser softer finishing stones, but they might be too fine. red aoto, etc. 'prefinisher'

aframestokyo, watanabeblade under 'specials', japan-tool, thejapanblade (maybe), make a listing on the forums (someone here gotsss some)

 

[lemeneid]

That's where I think I'm landing. A stone in the rotation that can refine but still leave a nice bite. So is that what I need? A Yaginoshima Asagi? (BTW, is one word the mine/region and the other the strata/grit?)

You don’t just rely on the name of the stone and buy them. Jnats have a whole spectrum of grits, even from the same mountain and strata. That’s why it’s important someone tests the stone properly and you’re buying it from someone trusted.

Yaginoshima is the mountain and asagi is the colour. It doesn’t tell much. Asahi can go from anywhere from 2000-20000 grit and come with a whole spectrum of finishes.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

That's where I think I'm landing. A stone in the rotation that can refine but still leave a nice bite. So is that what I need? A Yaginoshima Asagi? (BTW, is one word the mine/region and the other the strata/grit?)

Yaginoshima is related to the mountain and Asagi to the color of the stone (https://colors.japanesewithanime.com/japanese-colors/浅葱-asagi )

You don't need to get an Yaginoshima Asagi and not all Yaginoshimas will be good for knives (some could be too hard, better for razors). There are plenty stones that should leave some bite (in order to slice tomatoes) and still more refined than 1k-2k synths. Jon at JKI have some nice ones (not too hard) that should leave a refined edge with some bite: https://www.japaneseknifeimports.com/collections/tennen-toishi-natural-stones

If you want to have something with a lot of bite, you could get a kouzaki aoto, Ikarashi or an Aizu. The only thing is that the Aizu feels harder than most synths and could be a bit frustrating if you are still learning how to sharpen. Kouzaki aotos tend to be muddier, but Ikarashis and Aizus work better raising some slurry with a nagura or with a diamond plate.

There is also the Tsushima nagura (http://www.japanesenaturalstones.com/big-tsushima-nagura/), which are not very popular at KKF, but i enjoy it. According to Maksim, it should finish around 5k - 8k.

 

[lemeneid]

Aizu would be in that realm, Watanabe has some on offer, or you may have luck with a wtb here as some forum members might have a few to spare... mine is a harder and finer example as fair as aizu go and it leaves a great edge, part of my work kit. I'd love to try a softer one out at some point, too. Maybe some of the finer aotos? My aizu is a little nicer for sharpening imo, while my "red aoto"--not a true aoto--is hands down the better polisher. Polishing is not really important to me so the aizu gets a lot more run. And they're cheap (as far as jnats go) - should be able to score one in the $100-200 range.

I wouldn’t recommend an aizu to beginners though. They can be a little hard and thus frustrating for beginners to use. Softer stones that self slurry would be more suitable.

One cheap way to try out naturals would be to buy koppas or tomos. Most medium finishing stones can be had for under $100 if you search. Somehow the $100 mark is a price barrier to many beginners who want to try naturals.

 

[Badgertooth]

why everyone reiterates the semi-crapshoot nature of jnats?

[emoji121]️suita and uchi, as wonderful as they can be, can be problematic.

 

[Xenif]

Just a bit of personal experience. I jumped on to the Jnats train really early into my sharpening (2-3 months after my first free hand sharpening experience), without any knowledge on how to buy them or have the skill to use them, pretty much just read posts highlighting why I should get one (ignoring warning signs). My first two stones: a hard as F Asagi (because noob brain says higher grit hard stone = sharp edge) and a crap shot Tomae (rolled snake eyes on that one) ... You can probably guess things didn't go too well ...
But I kept at it, and with some guidance from the good people around here I was able to see the light (Hallelujah!)
Now I really really enjoy sharpening on Jnats and finish most of my polishing on them too.
As for a 3k-ish stone, if you really like bitey aggressive edges then try an Aoto, finding a right one could be challenging. Aizu gets a lot of love around here too but I haven't tried one yet. Some softer tomae I've tried also left edges in that range.

 

[GorillaGrunt]

There appears to be no functional need for naturals outside of polishing that I can tell. The vocabulary to really understand naturals seems impenetrable without access to them to try out or a willingness to throw mountains of cash at them. It hasn't kept me from throwing some money at it.

I see a functional difference in that I prefer the cutting performance of the edge from any of my Jnat finishers to that from a fine synthetic, except on something like ZDP. But I couldn’t tell you why with any scientific validity - could be the behavior of the abrasive particles or the slower dishing or my own technique.

 

[childermass]

I for my part am using naturals because I prefer the way they feel in use. I used to be annoyed by sharpening my knives until I bought my first natural stone, now I’m really enjoying it. I almost always use a full natural progression except when I have to do some major thinning, in this case nothing can beat a good coarse synthetic.

 

[madelinez]

I like to use naturals over 2k for the following reasons:
1. They don't clog as badly as synthetics if at all (muddy stones seem immune).
2. They dish slower than most synthetics (this is more dependent on the stones compared).
3. The edge *feels* toothier at the same sharpness, I love this feeling on overripe tomatoes.
4. Good polishers for san-mai carbon knifes if you want a kasumi finish.

Reasons not choose naturals:
1. They're slow
2. They are inconsistent and hard to choose.
3. They're slow (again)

 

[Luftmensch]

@bprescot you didnt say what type of natural stone! Arkansas? Coticule? J-nat?

Said differently, are natural stones mostly recommended for the result, the experience, or because collecting stuff is what we tend to do here.

For me, the largest objective reason to use J-nats is that they can produce a kasumi polish that I have not been able to replicate with synthetic stones (although there must be a way).

The previous posters have pointed out some pretty good differences. I dont think these are so major they argue for or against synthetic or naturals.

Are nectarines better than plumbs? Hehe... It is clear people have different tastes.

someone like me, who cares only about getting a good working edge again, might not

There's the rub. If you simply care about a functional edge and have all the synthetics you need, then don't bother with naturals. If you enjoy sharpening as an activity in its own right (and not just a necessary chore), then you may enjoy J-nats for the experience alone.


To me, there is value in the J-nat experience outside of the final result. I can't tell the difference between synthetics and naturals when cutting. Maybe that is due to both my sharpening and my knife handling skills. The sceptic in me thinks that even the most trained connoisseur would be at 50-50 odds in a blind test after each edge had seen a good round of food prep.

For what it is worth... I came at this from straight razor shaving. I have been at it for years but it is still a work in progress. Here i can feel a difference. Naturals feel smoother, but synthetics feel sharper and more aggressive.

Finally... No body here has mentioned the smell yet

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

I think i would get lots of edges wrong if i did a blind test, cutting with a knife trying to guess if it were sharpened by synths or naturals. The edge quality is, in my view, more affected by technique. That said, i feel jnats can make an even better edge, but only on refined enough blades. If you are searching for the best edge possible and like the process of sharpening, jnats can be amazing.