Need pointers on getting from copy paper sharp to paper towel sharp

[noj]

Here’s a 5 degree relief or back bevel with an edge bevel of 10 degrees (on that side). But notably my “relief bevel” doesn’t go all the way to the edge, it’s just easing the transition from the edge bevel to the blade road. So it deviates from your implication above that relief bevels meet at the apex. The knife needed a bit of thinning but I didn’t want to mess with the damascus so I just took a bit off down low immediately BTE.

I may be off on terminology, but if someone did sharpen at 5dps all the way to the edge, then put a 10 dps edge on top of that, I’d refer to the 10 dps edge as a microbevel and I wouldn’t call the 5dps section a relief bevel (maybe just the edge bevel).
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I won't fill someone's thread with more on this topic, other than to say thanks for clarifying, and giving an example. I'll have to try the relief bevel myself, though at an angle more appropriate for my edge bevel.

 

[mengwong]

Coda: I am finally out of detention! My graduating test was a new VG-10 130mm petty. I put a 15° microbevel on it using the Sharpmaker fine, and observed microchipping against a chopping board, possibly incited by the local high pressures of “steeling” against the Sharpmaker, possibly due to overheated steel from manufacture. I put a 20° microbevel on it using the Sharpmaker and was pleased to see it able to shave. But it was still rough against paper towel. Then I deleted the edges and took it back to 10–15° convexing with a heavy hand on SG16k, widening the bevel and watching the scratch pattern at the apex to be sure I had reached the very edge. High angle deburring gratifyingly left visible burr swarf on the stone. Rinsed and flattened. Light pressure strokes at slightly higher angle resulted in elimination of bright line (edge-on) suggesting a sub-micron edge radius. One-handed clean draw cuts through paper towel. Still can’t push cut though. Did not try HHT or BESS.

Thanks again for letting me hijack the thread with my experiments.

 

[boblob]

I guess here is meant setting a relief or secondary bevel.
Sharpening at any lower angle than the one used for the very edge is a form of thinning: you remove steel behind the edge without changing the edge itself. Remember the practice of setting a back- or relief bevel. Given an edge sharpened at 15° per side, you may increase performance by setting a bevel of 10° behind it. If the blade is thin, the relief bevel will be narrow. With a fat blade it will be quite large.

@Benuser can you please draw what you meant here ?
hard for me to understand

 

[mengwong]

Am “chuffed” to share: visited a friend with IKEA 365+ “Globals” and a Vic Fibrox. Four years, never sharpened, shiny rounded apex. Rebeveled with a 220–500–1000 SG progression, easing shoulders, testing against thumbnail. Was confident at the end that they would all slice paper towel. And they did! Whatever mental model my bio-organic neural network has developed about burring and deburring seems to align well with reality.

Yay.

 

[ModRQC]

Am “chuffed” to share: visited a friend with IKEA 365+ “Globals” and a Vic Fibrox. Four years, never sharpened, shiny rounded apex. Rebeveled with a 220–500–1000 SG progression, easing shoulders, testing against thumbnail. Was confident at the end that they would all slice paper towel. And they did! Whatever mental model my bio-organic neural network has developed about burring and deburring seems to align well with reality.

Yay.

That’s a hard dose of reality, at it.

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Am “chuffed” to share: visited a friend with IKEA 365+ “Globals” and a Vic Fibrox. Four years, never sharpened, shiny rounded apex. Rebeveled with a 220–500–1000 SG progression, easing shoulders, testing against thumbnail. Was confident at the end that they would all slice paper towel. And they did! Whatever mental model my bio-organic neural network has developed about burring and deburring seems to align well with reality.

Yay.

Good work!

 

[mengwong]

Good work!

Thank you! And how are the paper towels faring of late in your kitchen?

 

[NameAlreadyTaken]

Cowering under the sink lest they be shredded!
I’ve since then been trying to practice the Kippington deburring method (tm), and a couple of new knives that haven’t needed sharpening yet….

 

[NickMinton]

My edges got significantly better when I learned to deburr after each stone, as much of a pain as it might be.

I do the @KasumiJLA style of edge leading strokes followed by edge trailing strokes, a few stropes and even a light cutting pass through leather or folded paper towel.

After that, I’ll progress to the next stone

 

[mengwong]

the Kippington deburring method (tm)

Yeah, with consumer stainless I’ve gained confidence with boldly bending the burr:

1. Starting from the right face, with my coarsest stone, one or two strokes, medium pressure, edge trailing at 45° to bend the burr like _/
2. Light pressure at 90° (edge straight down on stone) to square it like _|
3. Medium pressure at 135° edge leading once or twice to break off \| then continuing with the left face
4. Light pressure at 170°–165°-ish a few times to break off any remaining fragments and simultaneously apex a convex micro bevel
5. Back to the right face at 15° to cut in the micro bevel and define the apex

And after that the higher grits are for polishing the edge and refining the apex microbevels.

(I’m not rounding, I’m convexing!)

Edge leading, no further macro-burr deliberately produced. Just 10°–15° wobbles the length of the stone. And that works. I know it is something that has been written on KKF a hundred times but it’s so satisfying to begin to understand it for myself.

Lately I’ve started doing finishing cuts against wood chopping board because Kraichuk says that actually improves sharpness. I don’t know about that but it’s a good confirmation I didn’t leave a wire edge.

 

[boblob]

Am “chuffed” to share: visited a friend with IKEA 365+ “Globals” and a Vic Fibrox. Four years, never sharpened, shiny rounded apex. Rebeveled with a 220–500–1000 SG progression, easing shoulders, testing against thumbnail. Was confident at the end that they would all slice paper towel. And they did! Whatever mental model my bio-organic neural network has developed about burring and deburring seems to align well with reality.

Yay.

did you sharpen ?
or your friend ?
i cant understand what you wrote

 

[user 16756]

My edges got significantly better when I learned to deburr after each stone, as much of a pain as it might be.

Interesting, I've never noticed any difference as long as I make sure to do a bit more on each side initially.

 

[Benuser]

My edges got significantly better when I learned to deburr after each stone, as much of a pain as it might be.

I do the @KasumiJLA style of edge leading strokes followed by edge trailing strokes, a few stropes and even a light cutting pass through leather or folded paper towel.

After that, I’ll progress to the next stone

Glad to hear you've adopted deburring after each stone. Further improvement can be expected by skipping the edge trailing, certainly at the end. Edge trailing for sure does abrade the burr, but not without raising a new one at the opposite side. Often a never ending story. Better only use edge leading. My sharpening has benefited hugely since. Use the lightest possible touch, hardly touching the bevel, even if the stroke has to get repeated from time to time. I didn't find it a very easy motion, until I've got here the suggestion to make exactly the opposite motion as when edge trailing — except for the poor start which tended to round my tip, of course.

 

[Benuser]

Interesting, I've never noticed any difference as long as I make sure to do a bit more on each side initially.

You don't want the burr from coarse stones damage your finer sharpening.

 

[mengwong]

did you sharpen ?

I sharpened.

or your friend ?

My friend cut the end of his thumb off, going right through the thumbnail, through the nailbed, and taking off the tip.

most domestic cooks handle their knives in such a way that properly sharp knives will actually injure them within the first week of sharpening.

Should I not have done his knives? Or should I have given more of a lesson in knife handling?

 

[stringer]

I sharpened.


My friend cut the end of his thumb off, going right through the thumbnail, through the nailbed, and taking off the tip.


Should I not have done his knives? Or should I have given more of a lesson in knife handling?

Sounds like maybe there is room for improvement on communication.

 

[Rangen]

Should I not have done his knives? Or should I have given more of a lesson in knife handling?

If your friend is 10 years old, this is all your fault.

If he's an adult, this is on him. Adults are responsible for handling potentially dangerous objects with appropriate caution, asking for advice, checking things themselves rather than relying on authority, as children normally do. Ask Alec Baldwin.

 

[mengwong]

So, tonight I visited a friend with a massive thick Henckels. I explained it was ARM so he took pity and let me spend some time rubbing his gyuto.

Thinned using Chosera 400 around 10°

That burr sure is sticky! Friodur? I think Frioburr!

Progressed to King 1000 around 10°

Microbeveled using the King 6k around 15°

Then, since the party was still going in the other room, I polished the convex bevel with 6k and refined the edge one more time, probably 20°.

A microchip remains. Still not push-cutting.