Need pointers on getting from copy paper sharp to paper towel sharp

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After initial deburring attempts on the SG1K

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So here I was a bit worried, either that the cratering was being introduced at this point, or maybe it was still a bit of remnant burr, so I kept on with the light 1K deburring strokes
 
So, some questions:
Aside from the stone progression being different, I spent a lot more time doing deburring strokes on all stones, making sure I hit the apex.
1) Am I right in assuming that the cratering that I had previously might have been an artefact of not doing enough light weight edge leading strokes on the same stone that I raised the burr on?
2) What should I be trying next?
 
Still no luck actually cutting a hanging hair though

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Pretty tough with thin blond hairs.
So, some questions:
Aside from the stone progression being different, I spent a lot more time doing deburring strokes on all stones, making sure I hit the apex.
1) Am I right in assuming that the cratering that I had previously might have been an artefact of not doing enough light weight edge leading strokes on the same stone that I raised the burr on?
2) What should I be trying next?
I think you're probably pretty much there already. You're just setting yourself up for failure with you testing media. If you want an intermediate step I would try easier hair. I use one of my thick dark beard hairs. Or one of the the thick white beard hairs that seem to be popping up more and more frequently. A hair from a shaving brush or a paintbrush works. It is just like paper. A world of difference between being able to slice card stock and being able to slice toilet tissue. Thin blonde hairs are much tougher to catch. It is probably also your hair cutting technique. The plates on the hair fit together kind of like shingles on a roof. I is easiest to catch the space between them at a pretty sharp angle. I think at 10 dps your knife is keen enough to slip between the plates. You might just need to practice with easier hair to get the muscle memory right. Then go back to the wispy blonde stuff.
 
Pretty tough with thin blond hairs.

I think you're probably pretty much the already. You're just setting yourself up for failure with you testing media. If you want an intermediate step I would try easier hair. I use one of my thick dark beard hairs. Or one of the the thick white beard hairs that seem to be popping up more and more frequently. A hair from a shaving brush or a paintbrush works. It is just like paper. A world of difference between being able to slice card stock and being able to slice toilet tissue. Thin blonde hairs are much tougher to catch. It is probably also your hair cutting technique. The plates on the hair fit together kind of like shingles on a roof. I is easiest to catch the space between them at a pretty sharp angle. I think at 10 dps your knife is keen enough to slip between the plates. You might just need to practice with easier hair to get the muscle memory right. Then go back to the wispy blonde stuff.
Good point. I have seemed to be making this hard for myself with what I have available.
I'll have to try different hair coarsenesses and see how I go.
 
I tried the 0 degrees to 90 degrees microscope inspection of the apex, but man, is that a tricky thing to get to focus properly. You might need to give me some pointers about how you're actually doing that @mengwong
The scope I have looks like this:
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That clear plastic hood is in the neighbourhood of the minimum focus distance and the maximum zoom. Middle pic, take out the coin, put in a knife standing edge up. The edge bites into the bottom of the hood, touching at two points of the circle. Adjust focus and you have a decent pivot. Of course this model has an onboard image sensor (which IMHO is nowhere near 4K, pfft) so hitting record is easy.

After edge leading on the SG8K
Btw in the latter picture on your 8k is it possible the angle was a little too low so the stone was polishing the microshoulder but sweeping through swarf at the edge? Of course the scratch patterns are deceiving so might be just a trick of the light. Just a minor nitpick in the spirit of achieving excellence
 
The scope I have looks like this:
View attachment 230460
That clear plastic hood is in the neighbourhood of the minimum focus distance and the maximum zoom. Middle pic, take out the coin, put in a knife standing edge up. The edge bites into the bottom of the hood, touching at two points of the circle. Adjust focus and you have a decent pivot. Of course this model has an onboard image sensor (which IMHO is nowhere near 4K, pfft) so hitting record is easy.


Btw in the latter picture on your 8k is it possible the angle was a little too low so the stone was polishing the microshoulder but sweeping through swarf at the edge? Of course the scratch patterns are deceiving so might be just a trick of the light. Just a minor nitpick in the spirit of achieving excellence
Thanks for sharing. I guess the challenge I’ve got with the optical microscope is I’ve got to also put my eye ball close to the edge and focus and stop the knife moving around and losing focus. I need like four hands.

Fair point about the 8K pictures. I did have some low passes in there that weren’t hitting the apex, but was able to see that with the sharpie so adjusted ever so slightly to hit the sharpie. That might explain the difference in level of polish?
I also used the sharpie for the stropping on kangaroo which has now painted the strop orange, but it’s interesting how many of my edge trailing strokes weren’t hitting the sharpie, so that’s a good thing to know and practice.
 
I did have some low passes in there that weren’t hitting the apex, but was able to see that with the sharpie so adjusted ever so slightly to hit the sharpie. That might explain the difference in level of polish?
I also used the sharpie for the stropping on kangaroo which has now painted the strop orange, but it’s interesting how many of my edge trailing strokes weren’t hitting the sharpie, so that’s a good thing to know and practice.
I do see here a pattern. It's perfectly common to have the first strokes on the finer stone not to instantly reach the apex. If you have no reason to believe these first strokes were at too low an angle, I would not increase it, but just go on with the same angle, and eventually the apex will be reached. That's the essence of a straight bevel. If it doesn't work, go back to the previous stone, and make sure the top of the edge gets clean.
I still believe it's no good idea to convex the very edge as you're doing now unless very simple carbons are involved.
 
I do see here a pattern. It's perfectly common to have the first strokes on the finer stone not to instantly reach the apex. If you have no reason to believe these first strokes were at too low an angle, I would not increase it, but just go on with the same angle, and eventually the apex will be reached. That's the essence of a straight bevel. If it doesn't work, go back to the previous stone, and make sure the top of the edge gets clean.
I still believe it's no good idea to convex the very edge as you're doing now unless very simple carbons are involved.
Ahh okay. Fair enough.
When I say adjusting the angle, we are talking about first or second decimal points of a degree (0.1 to 0.01 degrees), since I was using the angle guide for the edge leading strokes.
Given the tiny variation between strokes at like the first of second decimal points that would be reasonably registered for freehand sharpening without using some kind of jig, and the fact that I’m still practicing angle consistency, is there something that I need to change or start doing that I’m not?
Or are you describing a target / goal to work towards with practice?
I guess without confidence in my angle consistency (although a big improvement with the angle guides), I’m going to be less confident when to be sure I have a consistent angle and shouldn’t adjust the angle to hit the apex??
Or is it just keep at it with the same angle and these imperceptible variations in angle will mean that I will likely hit the apex just with more repetitions?
 
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Or is it just keep at it with the same angle and these imperceptible variations in angle will mean that I will likely hit the apex just with more repetitions?
I think so, yes. I wouldn't change the angle anywhere in the progression. Just to make sure: even on the finer stone, better use the scrubbing motion, until you're deburring. There's still is some steel to be removed and a scratch pattern to be eased.
 
I think so, yes. I wouldn't change the angle anywhere in the progression. Just to make sure: even on the finer stone, better use the scrubbing motion, until you're deburring. There's still is some steel to be removed and a scratch pattern to be eased.
Ahh right. Thanks for the explanation.
Just so I’m clear. I’ve been essentially raising a burr and then deburring using light weight edge leading strokes on the lowest grit stone that I start on.
The scrubbing that you refer to on higher grit stones, is this essentially raising a microburr and then deburring on each progressive higher grit stone?
I think I might have misunderstood the higher stone progression aiming to not raise a burr by using only edge leading strokes?
 
The aim is not so much raising a burr, but having both bevels meeting in the apex. The burr is the consequence, but no guarantee. I was wondering why it's so hard to have the finer stone touch the area just behind the edge. Could it be you've used a lot of pressure with the first stone, resulting in a slight concavity.
 
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The aim is not so much raising a burr, but having both bevels meeting in the apex. The burr is the consequence, but no guarantee. I was wondering why it's so hard to have the finer stone touch the area just behind the edge. Could it be you've used a lot of pressure with the first stone, resulting in a slight concavity.
That’s an interesting possibility.
I guess it’s possible, although I wasn’t using a crazy amount of pressure on the first stone.
For my benefit, which of the pics above shows what you’re talking about?
I just want to understand if I can “see” what you’re seeing.
 
The scrubbing that you refer to on higher grit stones, is this essentially raising a microburr and then deburring on each progressive higher grit stone?
I think I might have misunderstood the higher stone progression aiming to not raise a burr by using only edge leading strokes?
The scrubbing — with any stone — is the phase of the sharpening before the deburring. In a very tight progression you may skip it with one or more intermediate stones. Not your case so far. The idea is to remove steel. With some steel and stone combinations it allows loosening of the burr.
I wouldn't formulate not raising a burr as an aim. No burr, no edge. Which doesn't mean there is an edge if a burr got raised.
In the deburring phase, the burr is to be abraded, at its best if the stone is hardly touched. Any pressure, or an edge trailing stroke, will not only abrade the burr, but raise a new one as well. A never ending story, with waste of material and thickening behind the edge. See the occurring of a protruding shoulder.
With edge leading strokes, a single one may not be enough. Check after every stroke whether the burr got abraded. And check the other side where the burr, yet smaller, has moved to. As further as you're getting, less strokes per side will be needed. Finally, if the burr only flips without getting smaller you've reached the end of what this very stone can perform. Go to the next one. I would start by light scrubbing. Don't crush the fine edge.
 
The scrubbing — with any stone — is the phase of the sharpening before the deburring. In a very tight progression you may skip it with one or more intermediate stones. Not your case so far. The idea is to remove steel. With some steel and stone combinations it allows loosening of the burr.
I wouldn't formulate not raising a burr as an aim. No burr, no edge. Which doesn't mean there is an edge if a burr got raised.
In the deburring phase, the burr is to be abraded, at its best if the stone is hardly touched. Any pressure, or an edge trailing stroke, will not only abrade the burr, but raise a new one as well. A never ending story, with waste of material and thickening behind the edge. See the occurring of a protruding shoulder.
With edge leading strokes, a single one may not be enough. Check after every stroke whether the burr got abraded. And check the other side where the burr, yet smaller, has moved to. As further as you're getting, less strokes per side will be needed. Finally, if the burr only flips without getting smaller you've reached the end of what this very stone can perform. Go to the next one. I would start by light scrubbing. Don't crush the fine edge.
Okay thanks.
So let me make sure I understand this correctly so I can replicate it at home:
Two phases:
Burr raising = scrubbing on the coarsest stone you start on?
Burr removing = really light edge leading strokes on a progression of higher grit stones moving up when the previous stone has done all it can in abrading the burr?
Avoid scrubbing during burr removal as it would just increase the size of the burr?
I like the idea of multiple edge leading strokes on the same stone before moving up (mainly because that makes me feel less like a loser for not being able to hit the apex first time), but how do you test the size of the burr at the higher grit stones?
 
That’s an interesting possibility.
I guess it’s possible, although I wasn’t using a crazy amount of pressure on the first stone.
For my benefit, which of the pics above shows what you’re talking about?
I just want to understand if I can “see” what you’re seeing.
Those were the early pictures where you didn't reach the very edge with the finer stone, the paint was still there, with a messy surface right behind the edge — an accumulation of debris — and you decided to increase the angle, not with the coarser but with the finer stone.
 
Okay thanks.
So let me make sure I understand this correctly so I can replicate it at home:
Two phases:
Burr raising = scrubbing on the coarsest stone you start on?
Burr removing = really light edge leading strokes on a progression of higher grit stones moving up when the previous stone has done all it can in abrading the burr?
Avoid scrubbing during burr removal as it would just increase the size of the burr?
I like the idea of multiple edge leading strokes on the same stone before moving up (mainly because that makes me feel less like a loser for not being able to hit the apex first time), but how do you test the size of the burr at the higher grit stones?
Sharpening: scrubbing. Deburring on that same stone. Please rinse it. Don't expect to abrade the burr on a medium-coarse stone with a single stroke. The burr is simply too large. Perhaps five light strokes are needed. We are not going to count. Feel if it is still there. Go on until it's gone. Other side: again, the strokes that are needed. If gone, restart with the first side, where there certainly is a burr, a bit smaller. Eventually the number of strokes get reduced to 1. But there still is a small burr. Go on flipping sides and feel if the burr getting is still smaller. In case you would think there's no burr any longer: bad news. Strop one side on a non-abrasive media — your hand palm, for instance — and feel the other side again. All debris have moved over the apex to one side where you may abrade them.
If you can't reduce it any further, go to the next stone and start by scrubbing, before deburring.
 
Sharpening: scrubbing. Deburring on that same stone. Please rinse it. Don't expect to abrade the burr on a medium-coarse stone with a single stroke. The burr is simply too large. Perhaps five light strokes are needed. We are not going to count. Feel if it is still there. Go on until it's gone. Other side: again, the strokes that are needed. If gone, restart with the first side, where there certainly is a burr, a bit smaller. Eventually the number of strokes get reduced to 1. But there still is a small burr. Go on flipping sides and feel if the burr getting is still smaller. In case you would think there's no burr any longer: bad news. Strop one side on a non-abrasive media — your hand palm, for instance — and feel the other side again. All debris have moved over the apex to one side where you may abrade them.
If you can't reduce it any further, go to the next stone and start by scrubbing, before deburring.
Awesome! Thank you for that.
I think I was conceptually viewing the grit progression to the next stone as being kind of like a polishing for the apex rather than being a discreet process per stone.

Yes definitely washing the stone before deburring (made that mistake before).

Take these pics as an example.
Are you seeing any signs of a remnant burr?
(I’m just trying to understand how far off an effective process I am)
After stropping on kangaroo leather:

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Looking much cleaner

If I’m honest looking back at these photos it kind of looks a bit like the bright line at the edge (which I had thought was the apex) might be that burr that gets abraded down as you mention, despite me not being able to feel it on the edge.

With many more light weight edge leading strokes at SG1K, the edge looked a bit more straight and less jaggered:

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Sorry to butt in again – I wanted to share some results from tonight’s session : Deejo 37g 420C steel mid-50s HRC, thinned at 10–12dps (approximately) with 1k JKI diamond then polished with SG16k. Since I was having trouble with angle control I thought I’d pull out the old Sharpmaker. And lo, with light strokes with the Fine rod at 15° I was able to eliminate the bright line edge-on; and even though it measured at 200 BESS I was able to shave (HHT0) and cut (2-finger supported) paper towel. Rotating on the edge:
 
Sorry to butt in again – I wanted to share some results from tonight’s session : Deejo 37g 420C steel mid-50s HRC, thinned at 10–12dps (approximately) with 1k JKI diamond then polished with SG16k. Since I was having trouble with angle control I thought I’d pull out the old Sharpmaker. And lo, with light strokes with the Fine rod at 15° I was able to eliminate the bright line edge-on; and even though it measured at 200 BESS I was able to shave (HHT0) and cut (2-finger supported) paper towel. Rotating on the edge:

What grit is the Sharpmaker? I suppose this steel won't hold a highly polished edge, if it even takes it. Here a good example of convexing adding to edge stability. Very nice images.
 
Sorry to butt in again – I wanted to share some results from tonight’s session : Deejo 37g 420C steel mid-50s HRC, thinned at 10–12dps (approximately) with 1k JKI diamond then polished with SG16k. Since I was having trouble with angle control I thought I’d pull out the old Sharpmaker. And lo, with light strokes with the Fine rod at 15° I was able to eliminate the bright line edge-on; and even though it measured at 200 BESS I was able to shave (HHT0) and cut (2-finger supported) paper towel. Rotating on the edge:

Awesome vid! Your microscope looks way fancier, great magnification, is it autofocus too?
Yeah I see what you mean with the progressive angle to see if the line is gone. Well that’s a really interesting learning for me with my (much poorer) optical microscope, that the “line” at the edge that I can see sometimes as reflected light, is the burr even if I can’t feel it, I’m not done deburring.
 
I did a detention today too. Started on SG500 then moved on the SG1k. I could cut circles in newspaper, and shave some hair off my arm. But I didn't reach HHT0. Tomorrow will probably try to deburr more as apparently the bright line is a burr
 
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