Picking first stone. Naniwa 800, King 1000, Gesshin 1000?

[jstark]

Thanks guys. I ended up buying the 1k/6k king for $30 and I've been practicing with my current knives. I love it! Bringing your knives back to life is really great and I'm so glad I started down this path to maintain them correctly. I think I'm going to pick up a new knife in a a week or two, or maybe a more corse stone, like a 400.

My girlfriend has several super cheap, what seam like dollar store knives. I've tried to sharpen them, and it doesn't seem to work well. Strange how cheap steel doesn't easily sharpen. It makes me want a high quality knife, so I can really see the difference when I sharpen and use it.

I also need to figure out a cheap way to flatten the stone, or buy something to do it with.

 

[tsuriru]

I also need to figure out a cheap way to flatten the stone, or buy something to do it with.

Atoma makes a good flattener stone, or you can use abrasive sheets to flatten your stone on a flat kitchen counter.

 

[Nemo]

The Atoma plate is great but not cheap. I got a very good price from James at K&S.

If you are in USA, it's worth checking out the JKI diamond plates.

As a cheap option, some people advocate using drywall screen on a piece of flat glass. As Tsuriru suggested, wet and dry sandpaper on a flat surface would work too. You can buy flattening blocks but these will themselves need to be flattened eventually.

 

[daveb]

I like the JKI plate, has lasted me awhile and shows no sign of slowing down. Prior to that I used a DMT diamond plate. Maybe a little cheaper, not sure.

I've read about a $30 plate being avail Amazon but don't know anything more about it.

A King, huh. If you've used it, you need to flatten it.

 

[K813zra]

I like the JKI plate, has lasted me awhile and shows no sign of slowing down. Prior to that I used a DMT diamond plate. Maybe a little cheaper, not sure.

I've read about a $30 plate being avail Amazon but don't know anything more about it.

A King, huh. If you've used it, you need to flatten it.

I've not tried the amazon plate but I am a budget minded guy and have used other budget plates with no issues. iwood isn't bad at all nor is the one from he who should not be named. I wonder, if it is the same manufacture as the amazon plate, looks similar enough. Then again, it is a diamond plate and most look at least somewhat similar.

 

[giova]

I also recently bought my first stone and I had the same dilemma, but since my knives didn't really have a clean edge I preferred going under the 1000 grit, so I took the Suehiro Cerax 700 from ToolsFromJapan. It was really cheap option (€40 included shipping) and I just sharpened yesterday some cheap stainless knives and one Tojiro Santoku (F-701A). It was my first experience in sharpening and what I found out was that to develop a burr on my western knives it was a bit hard because they were really dull and the blade has a completely differente profile, at the secondary edge the western knives are twice as thick as my Japanese Tojiro, so I had to push somewhat harder on the stone but after taking my time I must say that the result was really really good, with some "though" sharpening and then very light polishing my edge was razor sharp (could shave my hair on my legs) but the geometry of the edge is not exactly what you would get from a finer stone, it cuts paper with a rough sound to it. The stone didn't build up at all and it's pretty tough stone, didn't felt like I'm cutting off too much material at all. With my Japanese knife this stone felt so much smoother and I was able to produce a burr in much less time and on my Japanese knife it produces a really sharper edge. My Tojiro was sharper than when I took it off from the box. The only thing I couldn't explain to myself was that at the first soak the stone was still letting some bubbles after 2 hours and a half of soaking and overall it kind of drinks a bit of water in the borders, but this may be because of the first soaking .. I don't really know since I never read anything about the soaking of this stone in particular.
I bought this Cerax 700 either because as I said I needed a "courser" stone either because I'm planning to buy the Suehiro Rika 5k as my finishing stone and I thought that the Cerax are a really good combo together with the Cerax and overall also because they're cheap (also Naniwa can be cheap for the 800 grit but after that when you wanna take a finer grit they get way more expensive)

 

[Carey59]

I like the JKI plate, has lasted me awhile and shows no sign of slowing down. Prior to that I used a DMT diamond plate. Maybe a little cheaper, not sure.

I've read about a $30 plate being avail Amazon but don't know anything more about it.

A King, huh. If you've used it, you need to flatten it.

For stone flattening I bought one last year from CKTG (no affiliation) for $35 that's pretty good; cuts well and was close to flat. 400/1000 nominal grit.
One I got at Amazon recently at around the same price was not flat at all, so I'll be returning it.

 

[jstark]

Yeah I'm looking at that CKTG one too, I think I'm going to go that route

 

[Gunslingerheel]

Thanks guys. I ended up buying the 1k/6k king for $30 and I've been practicing with my current knives. I love it! Bringing your knives back to life is really great and I'm so glad I started down this path to maintain them correctly. I think I'm going to pick up a new knife in a a week or two, or maybe a more corse stone, like a 400.

My girlfriend has several super cheap, what seam like dollar store knives. I've tried to sharpen them, and it doesn't seem to work well. Strange how cheap steel doesn't easily sharpen. It makes me want a high quality knife, so I can really see the difference when I sharpen and use it.

I also need to figure out a cheap way to flatten the stone, or buy something to do it with.

Watched a guy on Youtube sharpen a knife from the dollar store to be able to push cut a piece of paper. If you can believe he did this it is doable but probably not by me.

 

[LifeByA1000Cuts]

If that dollar store knife is made of 420J2 that has been heat treated well, you can probably get it as sharp as a $50 class stainless knife easily. And it will even be usable if you are doing low board contact, low wear tasks with it. To the contrary, I find the higher-carbon stainless in slightly more expensive knives (1.4116/Ex-Fifty-Kermoff-Howyadoin. Some, curiously, seem fine - HT differences?) seems to hit a brick wall and continue to feel coarse if you try to sharpen it further...

Of course, a truly cheap n nasty knife could be .. in the worst case, zamak cast into a wedge shape I guess

 

[Matus]

JKI are great stones. I have used several (but far from all). There is one stone that stands out that was not mentioned yet - the AI#1000 from Watanabe . It is the fastest medium grit stone I have ever used, is splash & go (may not be soaked) and feels really nice. I use it in my knifemaking process to set/check bevels as it is so fast. It can really be used directly after 220 stone.

From JKI I would recommend the Gesshin 2000 which is about as fast as most 1000 stones. It is a great, great stone. Fast, very good feedback, slowly dishing. I recommend permasoaking it.

For a finishing stone I can recommend the JKI Synthetic Natural - it gives refined edge with enough bite for pretty much any ktichen application. The only way to get a 'better' edge is to go to Ohira Suita (or similar), which is entirely different price category and you need a fine stone prior to suita anyhow - so keep that just for a future reference Or just get some 6000 grit stone. I would be tempted by the Gesshin 6000S as I already have the 400, 2000 and 4000 from that 'series' (loosely speaking).

Add a coarse stone (Gesshin 400S I would naively guess, the Gesshin 400 which I have dishes a bit too fast, otherwise it is a great stone for wide bevels) and you are set.

... OR ...

Get a loan and buy the Gesshin 800 Diamond Stone + a finishinig stone (The synthetic natural, for example). I am drooling over the 800 since a long time. One day I will get it

 

[jstark]

So I've been practicing with my knives and stones, I'm definitely getting results and learning. However, I haven't thus far been able to get an edge that would shave hair off my dry arm, similar to how my knives came, or pocket knives I've had in the past. Still getting maybe uneven results along the whole blade, noticeable when I try to cut paper, and closer to the tip is not as sharp. The knives I'm using are Henkel Twin Four Star, the forged set. 57 hardness. They call them "High Carbon" But I've read that it might be as low as .5 carbon, which isn't really high from my understanding.

Anyway, I'm using a King 1k/6k. Any words of tips/wisdom on how to get a sharper edge than what I'm currently getting? Is this just something that comes with practice?
I'm glad I've been practicing with these before moving on to a Japanese knife.

 

[K813zra]

So I've been practicing with my knives and stones, I'm definitely getting results and learning. However, I haven't thus far been able to get an edge that would shave hair off my dry arm, similar to how my knives came, or pocket knives I've had in the past. Still getting maybe uneven results along the whole blade, noticeable when I try to cut paper, and closer to the tip is not as sharp. The knives I'm using are Henkel Twin Four Star, the forged set. 57 hardness. They call them "High Carbon" But I've read that it might be as low as .5 carbon, which isn't really high from my understanding.

Anyway, I'm using a King 1k/6k. Any words of tips/wisdom on how to get a sharper edge than what I'm currently getting? Is this just something that comes with practice?
I'm glad I've been practicing with these before moving on to a Japanese knife.

It does come with time. Start with this if you are looking for tips. If you click to watch on youtube it is a whole playlist. Jon shows technique on how to deal with the tip of a knife on the stones. I use a bastardized version that works for me. You will develop your own technique but watching these videos will help, or at least they did for me.

[video=youtube;GB3jkRi1dKs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GB3jkRi1dKs&list=PLEBF55079F53216AB[/video]

 

[labor of love]

JKI are great stones. I have used several (but far from all). There is one stone that stands out that was not mentioned yet - the AI#1000 from Watanabe . It is the fastest medium grit stone I have ever used, is splash & go (may not be soaked) and feels really nice. I use it in my knifemaking process to set/check bevels as it is so fast. It can really be used directly after 220 stone.

From JKI I would recommend the Gesshin 2000 which is about as fast as most 1000 stones. It is a great, great stone. Fast, very good feedback, slowly dishing. I recommend permasoaking it.

For a finishing stone I can recommend the JKI Synthetic Natural - it gives refined edge with enough bite for pretty much any ktichen application. The only way to get a 'better' edge is to go to Ohira Suita (or similar), which is entirely different price category and you need a fine stone prior to suita anyhow - so keep that just for a future reference Or just get some 6000 grit stone. I would be tempted by the Gesshin 6000S as I already have the 400, 2000 and 4000 from that 'series' (loosely speaking).

Add a coarse stone (Gesshin 400S I would naively guess, the Gesshin 400 which I have dishes a bit too fast, otherwise it is a great stone for wide bevels) and you are set.

... OR ...

Get a loan and buy the Gesshin 800 Diamond Stone + a finishinig stone (The synthetic natural, for example). I am drooling over the 800 since a long time. One day I will get it

A little off topic but...I'd love to hear from anyone that's used a gesh 2k and wat AI 2k. For sharpening I use wat 1k and gesh 4k, gets the job completed quickly and I love gesh 4k edge.

 

[Benuser]

Just not reaching the very edge. The marker trick is great, but for the very edge go a bit further. With new or not that well maintained edges it will help.
Burrs tend to appear as well before you've reached the very edge.
So, if you think you've reached the very edge, raise the spine a bit.

 

[foody518]

A coarse stone to save your 1k's lifetime. Those kinds of knives are thick, particularly the ones that boast they are "forged". High angles to actually reach the edge, otherwise thinning/using an acute angle and a coarse stone to actually take enough steel off

I find the profiles of those with the belly and high tip more challenging to reach the tip consistently, though it depends on your method of sharpening. Practice and the learning curve around those shapes

 

[labor of love]

Henkel twin 4 star? I wouldn't bother going above 2k edge with those personally. I have one actually, a boning knife. I'm happy with a 1k edge + stopping.

 

[Matus]

A little off topic but...I'd love to hear from anyone that's used a gesh 2k and wat AI 2k. For sharpening I use wat 1k and gesh 4k, gets the job completed quickly and I love gesh 4k edge.

I new I should have bought the AI#2k Seriously - I expect the Gesshin to be the faster stone as the AI#2k was specifically designed to give a nice smooth finish. But a comparison of the two here on KKF is indeed long overdue

 

[Keith Sinclair]