Preferred steel for kitchen knives?

[Mike Davis]

I will go with Aldo 100%. I have spoken to numerous makers that rave about Aldo and i like what i have used so far.

 

[jmforge]

All of the steel that I am currently using came from Aldo, Ray, Don or Scott. The advantage that Aldo has is that he has gotten into a position where he can have otherwise hard to find carbon steel made to his specs, which in reality are our specs that he has gathered in his travels so to speak..

I will go with Aldo 100%. I have spoken to numerous makers that rave about Aldo and i like what i have used so far.

 

[JBroida]

i met aldo a few months ago... you knife makers are lucky to have a guy like him around... the fact that he's a nice guy is just icing on the cake so to speak

 

[jmforge]

And he's a lot of fun at parties.:lol2: Aldo has done a great job getting us all of this nice steel.

i met aldo a few months ago... you knife makers are lucky to have a guy like him around... the fact that he's a nice guy is just icing on the cake so to speak

 

[HHH Knives]

I was going to say that Aldo is the best source for 1095 and many other knife steels for that matter. Glad to see him getting some love here! not only is he a great guy to deal with, Theres a HUGE difference between his 1095HC and 1080fg and what some others are passing off.

I prefer 1095 and use it on my kitchen knives.. Mainly because I have dialed in on the HT and can consistently reach my desired RC.. As others have said, it make a very nice cutting blade.. Another thing is that 1095 gains a rich and beautiful patina quickly compared to some other steels .. Making it look as good as it cuts!

 

[SpikeC]

Cut Brooklyn uses 1095 and gets a pretty penny for it.

 

[jmforge]

If I was going to use plain old carbon steel like one of the 10xx steels and wasn't worried about a super active hamon, I would consider the Aldo 1084FG that I use for damascus because it has a small amount of vanadium added to the mix and it is a bit less finicky in the quench.

 

[Daniel Fairly]

Interesting stuff. I also feel there are vastly varying qualities of the same steel. I was using steel from Jantz and then switched suppliers to Aldo and another company, the quality difference is unreal. I have had the worst luck ever with Jantz's 1095, I can't even get it to normalize correctly with my digitally controlled kiln and I have noticed all sorts of banding and variation in the steel. I swore off the 1095 as the result of this but after reading other reports of the same thing I feel I need to try the 1095 from a better supplier. I have also found the same with O1, my new O1 grinds cleaner and has no banding and even less decarb.

With 5160 I am finding it is all about the same, it has a lot of inclusions but they only seem to effect the finish and you can usually grind past them. I'd like to find the John Deere stuff in flat bar or have a run smelted to spec.

 

[jmforge]

Aldo has some 5160. I have a tiny bit of good 5160 from Ray Kirk, but it is 3/4 round bar, so a bit limited. i also still have 2 bars of 1 1/2 x 3/8 stuff that I got a long time ago from Uncle Al. Also pretty good stuff. With that said, according to Ed Fowler and others, the John Deere steel is supposed to be extraordinarily good 5160.

Interesting stuff. I also feel there are vastly varying qualities of the same steel. I was using steel from Jantz and then switched suppliers to Aldo and another company, the quality difference is unreal. I have had the worst luck ever with Jantz's 1095, I can't even get it to normalize correctly with my digitally controlled kiln and I have noticed all sorts of banding and variation in the steel. I swore off the 1095 as the result of this but after reading other reports of the same thing I feel I need to try the 1095 from a better supplier. I have also found the same with O1, my new O1 grinds cleaner and has no banding and even less decarb.

With 5160 I am finding it is all about the same, it has a lot of inclusions but they only seem to effect the finish and you can usually grind past them. I'd like to find the John Deere stuff in flat bar or have a run smelted to spec.

 

[Daniel Fairly]

Aldo has some 5160. I have a tiny bit of good 5160 from Ray Kirk, but it is 3/4 round bar, so a bit limited. i also still have 2 bars of 1 1/2 x 3/8 stuff that I got a long time ago from Uncle Al. Also pretty good stuff. With that said, according to Ed Fowler and others, the John Deere steel is supposed to be extraordinarily good 5160.

Yeah I use a bit of Aldo's 5160 and so far it is all the same to me, funky stuff but it is my very favorite steel. I find it has a lot of character and takes a beating. I bet as far as most kitchen knives go there are better steels but I bet 5160 would make one heck of a cleaver or big chopper!

So far I have ordered the least popular product, lmao... Titanium! I have a carbidizer though and think it it going to just rock for slicers, 72 Rockwell edge! It is half the weight of steel and stronger also. I believe steel is a better choice for your main chef knife but the Titanium cuts like a laser through softer materials and is self sharpening with the carbide edge.

I still plan on getting some 52100 from Aldo, he has some 5/32 that would make an ideal go-to chef's knife. As a former chef I like a thicker spine for pushing through tougher stuff and he also has thicker stock, I have all kinds of options!

 

[El Pescador]

I occationally use a 1095 knife at work and can tell you it reacts very quickly. I would not buy another knife made from it again. On the other hand, I am amazed at how nonreactive my DT ITK 52100 is.

 

[jmforge]

Daniel, is that the .103 stuff? If so, he also has that thickness in W2.:biggrin: 5160 is interesting stuff. It is a bit tougher than W2 but not as tough as say L6. It is a lot easier to work with than real L6 like Champalloy. If you get some of the really good 5160 and treat it kindly, you can get the grain size down to the point where you can draw out that LONG wire edge and flop it back and forth with your finger like tissue paper. Bailey Bradshaw told me that was the best quick and dirty test for grain size. That is not something you would try on a thin kitchen knife, but it is good to do on a big knife to see if you nailed the HT.. You can't do that when the grain looks like beach sand.

Yeah I use a bit of Aldo's 5160 and so far it is all the same to me, funky stuff but it is my very favorite steel. I find it has a lot of character and takes a beating. I bet as far as most kitchen knives go there are better steels but I bet 5160 would make one heck of a cleaver or big chopper!

So far I have ordered the least popular product, lmao... Titanium! I have a carbidizer though and think it it going to just rock for slicers, 72 Rockwell edge! It is half the weight of steel and stronger also. I believe steel is a better choice for your main chef knife but the Titanium cuts like a laser through softer materials and is self sharpening with the carbide edge.

I still plan on getting some 52100 from Aldo, he has some 5/32 that would make an ideal go-to chef's knife. As a former chef I like a thicker spine for pushing through tougher stuff and he also has thicker stock, I have all kinds of options!

 

[tk59]

...5/32 that would make an ideal go-to chef's knife. As a former chef I like a thicker spine for pushing through tougher stuff and he also has thicker stock, I have all kinds of options!

This is an interesting thread. Watching all the "new guys" interacting, lol. I'm curious as to precisely what a "thicker spine" means and what exactly this "tougher stuff" is that requires it. Are you suggesting that a 3 mm spine is ideal? If so, where are the spine would you be taking that measurement? Exactly what was your "go-to knife" as a chef?

 

[Salty dog]

I don't think I've seen so many combinations of numbers and letters.

It's cool an all but I'd have a hard time telling you what steel is what knife of mine.

Do you see forest or trees?

 

[El Pescador]

I don't think I've seen so many combinations of numbers and letters.

It's cool an all but I'd have a hard time telling you what steel is what knife of mine.

Do you see forest or trees?

I have to agree with Salty on this one. I'm thinking cart in front of the horse though. Get the profile and grind down.

 

[jmforge]

Tougher stuff means that you can take a cleaver shaped cutting comp "race knife" made from CPM M4 with a spine between 1/4 and 3/8 thick down to say .012 before you put the convex edge on it, chop through a couple of 2 x 4's, 1, 1 1/2 and 2 inch free hanging manila rope (the record is 15 pieces of 1 inch rope bundled, IIRC), 10 or 12 full plastic water bottles and split a plastic drinking straw lengthwise standing on its end and still shave your arm with it when you are done. But you wouldn't want to try to hand sharpen the darn thing too much. :biggrin:

This is an interesting thread. Watching all the "new guys" interacting, lol. I'm curious as to precisely what a "thicker spine" means and what exactly this "tougher stuff" is that requires it. Are you suggesting that a 3 mm spine is ideal? If so, where are the spine would you be taking that measurement? Exactly what was your "go-to knife" as a chef?

 

[jmforge]

I can't help but notice that one of your test knives that performed VERY well in the potato test is probably made from steel with a lot of numbers. :lol2:Yes, some of us are new to the kitchen knife game. Thats why we are here. Your apparent amazment with all of the "numbers" of steel stypes is similar to mine when I try to figure out why the Japanese have 200 different types of food prep knives. Just because we haven't quite figured out everything about kitchen knives doesn't mean that we don't have a fair idea of the capabilities of the various and sundry steels that we have been using. :wink:

I don't think I've seen so many combinations of numbers and letters.

It's cool an all but I'd have a hard time telling you what steel is what knife of mine.

Do you see forest or trees?

 

[JohnnyChance]

Tougher stuff means that you can take a cleaver shaped cutting comp "race knife" made from CPM M4 with a spine between 1/4 and 3/8 thick down to say .012 before you put the convex edge on it, chop through a couple of 2 x 4's, 1, 1 1/2 and 2 inch free hanging manila rope (the record is 15 pieces of 1 inch rope bundled, IIRC), 10 or 12 full plastic water bottles and split a plastic drinking straw lengthwise standing on its end and still shave your arm with it when you are done. But you wouldn't want to try to hand sharpen the darn thing too much. :biggrin:

Fairly said "As a former chef I like a thicker spine for pushing through tougher stuff...". Those are not activities a chef needs to care about. TK was asking what he preferred a thicker chefs knife for and what an ideal spine thickness would be for him.

 

[jmforge]

I was merely commenting on what we were talking about when speaking of steel types that have a higher toughness.

Fairly said "As a former chef I like a thicker spine for pushing through tougher stuff...". Those are not activities a chef needs to care about. TK was asking what he preferred a thicker chefs knife for and what an ideal spine thickness would be for him.

 

[JohnnyChance]

I can't help but notice that one of your test knives that performed VERY well in the potato test is probably made from steel with a lot of numbers. :lol2:Yes, some of us are new to the kitchen knife game. Thats why we are here. Your apparent amazment with all of the "numbers" of steel stypes is similar to mine when I try to figure out why the Japanese have 200 different types of food prep knives. Just because we haven't quite figured out everything about kitchen knives doesn't mean that we don't have a fair idea of the capabilities of the various and sundry steels that we have been using. :wink:

Actually, the number is somewhere around 800 different types of knives.

And all of the knives Salty used in his videos where made from steels with all sorts of numbers and letters. Even the ones that performed very poorly. Does the steel matter? Sure, but these are all steels people use to make kitchen knives. To most people, there is a negligible difference in performance between the "worst" steel used by custom knife makers and the "best" steel used. Nobody is suggesting using fenders from an old Datsun and cutting blade profiles out of them. In the grand scheme of metal, all of these steels perform pretty well for cutlery. The bigger factor in how they actually cut is how they are ground.

 

[tk59]

Tougher stuff means that you can take a cleaver shaped cutting comp "race knife" made from CPM M4 with a spine between 1/4 and 3/8 thick down to say .012 before you put the convex edge on it, chop through a couple of 2 x 4's, 1, 1 1/2 and 2 inch free hanging manila rope (the record is 15 pieces of 1 inch rope bundled, IIRC), 10 or 12 full plastic water bottles and split a plastic drinking straw lengthwise standing on its end and still shave your arm with it when you are done. But you wouldn't want to try to hand sharpen the darn thing too much. :biggrin:

Funny. I am well aware of what goes on in these competitions. You obviously don't belong in a kitchen knife forum, lol. With regard to sharpening, I seriously doubt I would mind hand sharpening any steel kitchen knife blade unless it was a fixing job (ie chips).

Salty was just making a point. What he means is "There are plenty of good knife steels. No one will give a crap what the steel is if you actually make a good knife out of it."

 

[jmforge]

I think that a more accurate statement would be that the various steels that you chose to use perform pretty well.:wink:Grind is a major part of what the knife will do but if the steel chosen and the heat treat cannot allow you to create a blade that can get a profile and edge as thin as you need and hold that edge for a reasonable period of time, then the best grind you can come up with is not going to matter a fig. You guys seem to be all about pushing the limits of performance in these knives and steel choice can be a factor. The expanded use of 52100 is an good example. That stuff was unknown i the world of kitchen knives not too long ago, right? yes now, it is one of the preferred steels. Where do you think that Bob Kramer learned about that stuff? Guys in the ABS have been playing with it for years it for years. Arguably, the only reason that we have 52100 bar stock to use today is because the ABS guys got tired of having to scrounge and forge down big ball bearings and bearing races to get the stuff into a usable form.

Actually, the number is somewhere around 800 different types of knives.

And all of the knives Salty used in his videos where made from steels with all sorts of numbers and letters. Even the ones that performed very poorly. Does the steel matter? Sure, but these are all steels people use to make kitchen knives. To most people, there is a negligible difference in performance between the "worst" steel used by custom knife makers and the "best" steel used. Nobody is suggesting using fenders from an old Datsun and cutting blade profiles out of them. In the grand scheme of metal, all of these steels perform pretty well for cutlery. The bigger factor in how they actually cut is how they are ground.

 

[jmforge]

If you would enjoy sharpening something like CPM M4 by hand, then you are a VERY patient man. :biggrin: WE give a crap what kind of steel we make a knife out of just like you might give a crap about a particular ingredient in one of your recipes.

Funny. I am well aware of what goes on in these competitions. You obviously don't belong in a kitchen knife forum, lol. With regard to sharpening, I seriously doubt I would mind hand sharpening any steel kitchen knife blade unless it was a fixing job (ie chips).

Salty was just making a point. What he means is "There are plenty of good knife steels. No one will give a crap what the steel is if you actually make a good knife out of it."

 

[JohnnyChance]

Tk thinned the entire blade of an Aritsugu A-type gyuto by hand. You can be sure he is quite patient.

 

[El Pescador]

I think that a more accurate statement would be that the various steels that you chose to use perform pretty well.:wink:Grind is a major part of what the knife will do but if the steel chosen and the heat treat cannot allow you to create a blade that can get a profile and edge as thin as you need and hold that edge for a reasonable period of time, then the best grind you can come up with is not going to matter a fig. You guys seem to be all about pushing the limits of performance in these knives and steel choice can be a factor. The expanded use of 52100 is an good example. That stuff was unknown i the world of kitchen knives not too long ago, right? yes now, it is one of the preferred steels. Where do you think that Bob Kramer learned about that stuff? Guys in the ABS have been playing with it for years it for years. Arguably, the only reason that we have 52100 bar stock to use today is because the ABS guys got tired of having to scrounge and forge down big ball bearings and bearing races to get the stuff into a usable form.

While all this is true, you are here with the goal to make a good knife. The profile and grind is the tricky part. Anybody can see what DT, Rader, or Burke is using for their knives. While the heat treat is tougher but a phone call or 2 can get that taken care of. You're not going to reinvent the wheel here. Salty is right, its about performance.

 

[jmforge]

Actually, if Bill Burke is using a heat treat for 52100 similar to what Ed Fowler uses, it cannot be learned with a phone call. it can be done with some fairly simple gear, but not a lot of guys have mastered that particular technique and not from lack of trying.

While all this is true, you are here with the goal to make a good knife. The profile and grind is the tricky part. Anybody can see what DT, Rader, or Burke is using for their knives. While the heat treat is tougher but a phone call or 2 can get that taken care of. You're not going to reinvent the wheel here. Salty is right, its about performance.

 

[jmforge]

F You obviously don't belong in a kitchen knife forum, lol.

Didn't see that at first. I see the 'lol" but I fail to see the humor in your statement. Isn't an interest in or desire to make kitchen knives what determines if someone "belongs" on a kitchen knife forum? Also, I thought this was the "getting started" section and not the "you don't know diddly so shut up and go back to making your silly bowie knives" section. Did I click the wrong subforum?:O

 

[ajhuff]

Wow this thread got pissy fast. You knife guys are an odd bunch.

*******, tell me more about the M4. I saw somewhere a hardness versus toughness graph and it looked like it would have excellent potential for edge retention. I understand the difficulty in sharpening tradeoff but I would guess that once you got and edge you'd be good to go

-AJ

 

[Salty dog]

I will say that it's cool for the people who are interested in the technical aspects of steel and knife making to be able to exchange thoughts and opinions. I didn't mean to lesson any conversation.

I can see if you're into that thing this thread is very informative.
I couldn't help but notice the knifemakers carrying most of the conversation. It's because most of us cooks get lost trying to remember what is what.

 

[goodchef1]

c,mon, can we just accept the fact that some people are more into steel make-up, and some are not? same with computers, cars, speakers. Not all perform the same and the housing is just a part of it. And some people like to know about it's make-up. It is what's inside that matters too. For "different purposes" some people do care what the steel is, and I personally know the difference between low-end and high-end steel performance, and I don't know of or heard of anyone doing crappy HT's and it is not being discuss exept by makers, so talking about HT's being important is a mute point at this time.

Talking down to people does not make people look or sound intelligent, especially making fun of things that one does not understand. bullying, scare tactics fail also. There is enough of them out there that belittle posts and mock members. Join XDA with over 4 million members and see just how insignificant one can be. This is a nice place and trash talking should be kept at a respectable, fun tone.