Recomend a good natural finishing stone

[Godslayer]

So my current line up is 220( never been used, not even once) a 1000/2000/5000 naniwa and a 8000 shapton glass, i have a leather strop and some micron paste. I am looking at buying a good finishing stone(mainly for polishing) that would be a jnat. I honestly dont understand jnats but have noticed levels on some sites so 5+ is what im looking for. I feel finishing on a jnat would be zen and may make me feel the edge is better, resulting in a placebo effect. I wont spend a $1000 on a stone though. I have been thinking about buying a second from maxim when one appears. But would like to know if a good less expensive option exists. If possible i would like to avoid us vendors as the us/cad is garbage atm #iloveit

 

[ynot1985]

I have recently dabbed into Jnats.. are you looking for a finisher for a more refined edge or are after a polisher that gives a kasumi finish as syn nats tend to be give more of a mirror finish?

 

[YG420]

I recently picked up a hideriyama stone which is a very good finishing jnat in my opinion.

 

[KimBronnum]

I recomend one of the Aiwatanii koppas JNS has. I own two and they are amazing value for money.
- Kim

 

[Cashn]

I'd recommend emailing Maksim. He's got a lot on his plate at the moment and may not have what you are looking for currently but he's very helpful. Let him know what you currently have and what your looking for in a jnat. He also has some good wiki's for general info. You honestly have to try a couple to see what they're about. It's not a very cut and dry type of thing. Especially without being able to try and see them first. I use an aoto>hideriyama>ohira myself, occasionally a monzento and omura before the aoto. Some may think the ohira is too fine of an edge, and other would go to a finer stone past it. Also depends on how the knife is going to be used. Lots of if's and personal choice in it, best to consult with someone who uses them day and and day out. Aframestokyo is another seller but not one I've dealt with so can not Give an opinion on.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

so 5+ is what im looking for.

Hi Godslayer, if you never used jnats, a softer stone is much easier to use. Besides, if you are going for a kasumi finish, you will want a not so fine stone, as the finest stones will give you a mirror-like finish (or close to it) instead of the cloudy finish you are looking for.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

There's a lv3 Aiiwatani Kopa on sale right now on B/S/T: http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/showthread.php/25941-Aiiwatani-Koppa-lv3-w-Nagura-(from-JNS)

 

[Smurfmacaw]

I've got a Ohira Suita that is really nice (not for sale though). It's a 3.5 and frankly any thing harder would be extremely hard in my opinion. It doesn't dish at all and leaves a killer edge. I like it a lot and it seems to leave a great edge on all the knives I've tried it on. (W1, W2, B2, 52100, and Haburn damascus). I'm a total novice with natural stones but it's pretty easy to use.

 

[Andrew]

Sorta piling on to the above comments... but starting with a 5+ doesn't seem like the right approach, the stones are less forgiving in some ways, plus the finish is much more refined than most folks want for a kitchen knife.

I have a few Jnats, as I also work to sharpen woodworking gear to a higher level, but find myself using the softest stone I have (a hakka from Maksim) for my knife work.

I'd strongly suggest reaching out to one or more of the various vendors and see what they think might be a good stone. Determining a budget will also help the conversation quite a bit, as the finishing stones can get pretty flipping expensive in a hurry.

 

[Bolek]

Maybe sothing not to expensive for the first jnat :
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Japanese-Na...igh-quality-/252250438052?hash=item3abb4c39a4

 

[Asteger]

I like the idea of trying a koppa for your first stone. If you can enjoy using it - they're small, obviously - and get good results, then when you get a fuller-sized specimen it'll all seem so easy. (Tangent, sorry: I kind of think along the lines how many soccer academies start on reduced or futsal-type smalll pitches, before moving to full-sized one in later years. The smaller space helps build technique.) They're a lot cheaper too.

I'd ask Aframes or Jns for a recommendation, specifying what you sharpen. Yes, for kitchen knives you don't want things to be hard. Hard stones are for razors. Medium hardness (such as with the Lv3 koppa mentioned above) is good. Various sellers have various ways of describing hardness, though. Hardness isn't necessarily related to fineness, either.

Non-'finisher' jnats can be the most enjoyable to use, but aren't that available. Aframes tends to sell aoto but I think the good ones cost a lot. Ikarashi are not that pricey at Jns and are easy to use. There are many others. Easy to use and finer but not too fine stones that people often enjoy are: Takashima, Ohira, Hakka and, as above, Aiiwatani (I haven't tried the last, though).

 

[XooMG]

I myself am occasionally messing around with stones, though I can't even come close to justifying the big >$500 stones.

I recently picked up a (probably) igarashi semi-locally, which was a real surprise since I don't find many Japanese stones in this country, but it was a pretty good deal and I took a risk.

Stone has been impressive, and without any heavy slurry and minimal effort puts out a finish that I think rivals the scratch pattern of my JNS synthetic red aoto. Playing with slurries from other stones on it seemed to yield interesting results too with darkening and refining a little. I used my mikawa white nagura, some nakayama nagura, slurry from my hakka, and some slurry raised from the base stone...all were pretty interesting.

I've got one of those tiny hakka stones Maksim sold a while back, and while it is not easy to use because it's so narrow, I think it puts a pretty nice scratch finish on...maybe a bit too dark for my taste.

The ai'iwatani koppa I got seems to go even a little finer than the hakka, but I get less consistency on my bevels, and can never quite get it uniform. I think Maksim's hardness rating was 3, but it doesn't slurry a whole lot.

If I could get something that's as friendly and consistent as the igarashi, but with the finish of the ai'iwatani, I'd be pretty happy. I am not holding my breath though.

 

[Asteger]

How about showing off your photo skills and putting a picture up of the Ikarashi? There are some others that are similar, but yours sounds Ikarashi-esque. Yes they have a good feel. I've been through 2 or 3 in the past (sold on I mean, not worn out of course).

 

[XooMG]

How about showing off your photo skills and putting a picture up of the Ikarashi? There are some others that are similar, but yours sounds Ikarashi-esque. Yes they have a good feel. I've been through 2 or 3 in the past (sold on I mean, not worn out of course).

I probably won't be able to get any photos right away, and I don't think my skills would show off the stone very well. The stone was labeled Igarashi, which is why I said it probably is...but even if it's not...it seems like a nice stone and much finer than I initially expected. Second time I tried it straight on a bevel, it felt a little rubbery, but a tiny touch of dish soap got it cutting smoothly again (I hope nobody lynches me).

I also stumbled across an old gunma stone, tiger label #7...don't know if that equates to a numata or if it's something else, but it was a pretty good deal so I will be getting it by the end of the week I think.

I could potentially see a lower grit stone like this working on my Zakuri, &c. as a "working polish". It's smooth enough (unlike 800-1000 grit synthetics I've got) and pretty uniform. Seems to make a pretty nice crisp edge for some stuff too.

Still would be nice to refine it a bit more, though.

 

[Asteger]

I probably won't be able to get any photos right away, and I don't think my skills would show off the stone very well. The stone was labeled Igarashi, which is why I said it probably is...but even if it's not...it seems like a nice stone and much finer than I initially expected. Second time I tried it straight on a bevel, it felt a little rubbery, but a tiny touch of dish soap got it cutting smoothly again (I hope nobody lynches me).

I also stumbled across an old gunma stone, tiger label #7...don't know if that equates to a numata or if it's something else, but it was a pretty good deal so I will be getting it by the end of the week I think.

I could potentially see a lower grit stone like this working on my Zakuri, &c. as a "working polish". It's smooth enough (unlike 800-1000 grit synthetics I've got) and pretty uniform. Seems to make a pretty nice crisp edge for some stuff too.

Still would be nice to refine it a bit more, though.

Sorry as I won't really look into it to write this, but although there's mostly a consensus there is also a little dissent about 'Ikarashi' named stones also coming from somewhere in Kyushi, not Niigata, Honshu from where they most certainly come from. Seems reasonable that the same name occurs more than once in Japan, especially given the Ikarashi kanji. Anything grey-blue-ish has to be the Ikarashi popularised here by JNS. They can resemble some Aizu in appearance and performance, but it's still possible to distinguish them and so I thought it'd be good to see a picture.

Different stones have come from Gunma, but who really knows the specifics. Some are Numata hyotan and the 2-3 I've had of these are favourites.

I like the idea of a 'working edge' yes.

 

[XooMG]

Sorry as I won't really look into it to write this, but although there's mostly a consensus there is also a little dissent about 'Ikarashi' named stones also coming from somewhere in Kyushi, not Niigata, Honshu from where they most certainly come from. Seems reasonable that the same name occurs more than once in Japan, especially given the Ikarashi kanji. Anything grey-blue-ish has to be the Ikarashi popularised here by JNS. They can resemble some Aizu in appearance and performance, but it's still possible to distinguish them and so I thought it'd be good to see a picture.

Different stones have come from Gunma, but who really knows the specifics. Some are Numata hyotan and the 2-3 I've had of these are favourites.

I like the idea of a 'working edge' yes.

You may be right that it might be a different stone labeled incorrectly. I don't have a place of origin on it, but it does have a faint yellowish hint of woodgrain, and some red speckles like iron oxide on one end, which looks a bit reminiscent to some binsui or white amakusa pictures.

Funny, because the stone performs more admirably than I thought it would. Had I been told it was amakusa or binsui, I might have been reluctant to buy.

I will grab a quick pic in a few minutes...no good lighting at the moment though so you'll have to forgive poor quality.

 

[XooMG]

Dry stone is pretty pale. Not yellowish really. Slurry is bright white.

Wetted, it darkens a lot, and some yellows, browns, and greens pop out. Here's a wetted edge with the red end. Doesn't seem to cut any differently from the rest of the stone.

 

[Asteger]

It's definitely not a Niigata-type Ikarashi. Looks like a 'binsui' which will usually mean from somewhere in Kyushu. (I always get confused about the origins there.) I think there is a place called Ikarashi in Kyushu, too, which could cause some name-confusion because it doesn't seem like it'd be a source of stones. Still, this one has binsui written all over it. I have had the impression these were mined in in the Amakusa area. JNS used to sell some like these.

I've got a similar one which I like - narrower in the vintage style, with a vintage sticker (though I don't care about 'vintage' monikers necessarily) - and it also has the green strips. I think for this type of stone, the green bits are associated with the best kind. Unusually for most naturals, though, mine tends to dish quite fast - at a rate which makes me feel like I'm using a synth stone, and so maybe not all that fast for most people actually. Yours looks nice. Nice shape.

Here's a photo of 2 Ikarashi from Niigata I used to own. They can look very blue, but maybe are even more blue than usual in this photo:

 

[XooMG]

Yep, I've been peeking at pics for a little while, and I'd be totally unsurprised if it were a binsui of some sort. Kind of funny because I have had some exposure to binsui many years ago but don't remember it.

Maybe I should try to track down a genuine ikarashi or aizu or something. If they can offer a similar level or a mild step up in finish/feel, they'd be pretty awesome. I would never have bought this one I've got if it weren't for a decent deal that I stumbled across nearby...but the midgrit range is pretty fun.

 

[Asteger]

Yup. As many will concur, medium grits are absolutely fine, and I think esp with the nats which will seem to finish a lot finer than where they start. Probably my most used stone is still Aizu, and absolutely fine to finish with. Numata Hyotan, Aizu, Kaisei, Ikarashi, good Iyo are all some good ones that spring to mind and a bit finer than how I think yours is. Some of the best-feeling stones to use.

 

[XooMG]

I will probably need to wait a while...until Chinese New Year passes...but I placed an order for an Aizu from one of the standard Japanese online vendors. Was going to grab a numata as well, but I want to see how the locally-sourced gunma white stone performs first (seller tells me it's 2-3k equivalent range but I don't trust such claims usually).

Thanks for the possible ID help on the so-called igarashi...it does indeed seem to be a good/fine binsui, or something very similar.

 

[Asteger]

2-3k sounds reasonable to me, or maybe a bit coarser to start? Anyway, there's a tendency to measure a lot due to the synth stone grit influence, I guess, but I usually relax a bit with these things and feel that, if a type of stone has traditionally been well-regarded in a certain way, then (provided you get a good one) you can usually trust that it'll work out for you.

Very happy to hear you're trying the Aizu. Let us know how it is. Not many people have them. Have you read the story about the miners all dying one winter in the 50s and all Aizu mining stopping thereafter? Little creepy, I guess

 

[Badgertooth]

I'm trying out a cheap shoubudani that seems to be putting a very nice edge on blue steel

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[panda]

ikarashi is a really really nice feedback stone, around 2k edge, best for finishing stainless knives. but i also use it for carbon petty.

 

[brooksie967]

I've tried edges from 1k up to 12k synth and medium fineness jnats up to the finest of jnats that are glass hard and are more suited for razors. My favorite stone for finishing edges as well as providing perfect kasumi contrast is a shobu suita. It's a level 4 stone in hardness and is wonderfully fast. WIth DMT slurry it can remove 1k scratches very very quickly, on water it's still fast but finishes to a very semi mirror polish. Honestly it's about as fine as I'd like to go on an edge as it is still toothy enough to handle things like the skin on bell peppers and tomatoes but is silky smooth cutting through meat and fish.

 

[XooMG]

2-3k sounds reasonable to me, or maybe a bit coarser to start? Anyway, there's a tendency to measure a lot due to the synth stone grit influence, I guess, but I usually relax a bit with these things and feel that, if a type of stone has traditionally been well-regarded in a certain way, then (provided you get a good one) you can usually trust that it'll work out for you.

Didn't work out too well this time with the gunma stone...the stone isn't bad (didn't add huge scratches, feels OK), but the quality of finish is neither as fine nor as consistent as the big white "igarashi" binsui-ish stone.

Very happy to hear you're trying the Aizu. Let us know how it is. Not many people have them. Have you read the story about the miners all dying one winter in the 50s and all Aizu mining stopping thereafter? Little creepy, I guess

I read the story from the vendor's page, and think I may have read it somewhere before, but I have heard quite a few local legends in Japan that turned out false, so I tend to not take them very seriously now.

Chinese New Year means a few days with the post office shut down, so I probably will need to wait to get it.

And being a sucker for redundancy, I also just snagged an ikarashi that suddenly popped up on JNS. With luck, I'll find something in this range that'll make me happy. The big white brick I've got gets pretty close, so I think there's hope.

 

[Badgertooth]

I will probably need to wait a while...until Chinese New Year passes...but I placed an order for an Aizu from one of the standard Japanese online vendors. Was going to grab a numata as well, but I want to see how the locally-sourced gunma white stone performs first (seller tells me it's 2-3k equivalent range but I don't trust such claims usually).

Thanks for the possible ID help on the so-called igarashi...it does indeed seem to be a good/fine binsui, or something very similar.

out of interest - What are the standard Japanese online vendors other than Mandaraya and Totoriya?

 

[XooMG]

I was just referring to Morihei this time around, but I'm not endorsing or anything. I just felt a bit spontaneous and decided to take a gamble.

 

[Asteger]

I've sent 4~5 emails to Morihei in the past and visited once (closed then). Received 1 response more than half a year later from one of my messages. In Morihei's defense, though, I think it's not unsual for foreign emails to Japanese accounts to be diverted into spam. One option I checked before and I think is possible is even to get a J-based email account! :dazed:

 

[XooMG]

I've sent 4~5 emails to Morihei in the past and visited once (closed then). Received 1 response more than half a year later from one of my messages. In Morihei's defense, though, I think it's not unsual for foreign emails to Japanese accounts to be diverted into spam. One option I checked before and I think is possible is even to get a J-based email account! :dazed:

I lucked out by doing the intellectually lazy thing...ordered the stone without any questions. I think they shipped it already, but it'll be probably at least a week before I see it. Same with the ikarashi from Maksim.