So how should the forum handle re-sellers or "flippers"?

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
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labor of love said:
Numerous people have commented that flipping isn’t obvious, but it is. Anything that is purchased usually very recently and is then resold on BST listed as “brand new inbox” with a significant markup of $100 or more is flipping. The reason the item is sold as brand new inbox is no accident. It’s to maximize profit from the resale.
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With all do respect, Craig I am now a bit concern. I am concern because I had acquired a BNIB Shigefusa Kitaeji from another member to whom I respect and will remain nameless. While I have no intention of selling the knife, I will use it as an example.

If for some reason this BNIB knife that I paid over $100.00 over retail was not what I had expected and didn’t use it nor sharpen it, it is still considered BNIB. If I post it in BST to sell for the same amount that I bought the knife for, which is over your $100.00 threshold, and my description of the knife states BNIB, will you then label me as a “flipper” unjustly?

As you can see, it is not that simple. You can quickly jump to conclusion that based on my pricing and description, that I am a “flipper” without knowing exactly the story behind it. On the other hand, how will you know if the member is telling the truth or just copy my scenario and lie so he can “lawfully” flip the knife?

I am not questioning your positioning on this issue nor defending any flippers. I am merely stating my concern.
 
hard to discern if they are filppers or just honestly trying to sell the knife and recoup what they invested without much loss.
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Worst case is sales happen on e-bay?
Still don't see this as a problem.
 
labor of love said:
Numerous people have commented that flipping isn’t obvious, but it is. Anything that is purchased usually very recently and is then resold on BST listed as “brand new inbox” with a significant markup of $100 or more is flipping. The reason the item is sold as brand new inbox is no accident. It’s to maximize profit from the resale.
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I'm sorry but a $100 markup is far from flipping. You clearly have either

A. Never been in the dope game.
B. Was in the dope game and went broke due to your poor flipping practices.
 
labor of love said:
Numerous people have commented that flipping isn’t obvious, but it is. Anything that is purchased usually very recently and is then resold on BST listed as “brand new inbox” with a significant markup of $100 or more is flipping. The reason the item is sold as brand new inbox is no accident. It’s to maximize profit from the resale.
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I'm with Andreu on this.

I'm not embarrassed to say I collect shigs and Kato. I even have spares/doubles that I purchased with the intention to use as trade bait (sometimes a knife is a better enticement for people to part with their knife rather than money). I do use some of my Shigs/katos but as a home cook, there is no way I can cycle through enough of them hence why a fair amount of them are still BNIB. I don't think BNIB is a good indication that a seller is a flipper. I have never sold a knife on BST but if one day, financial circumstances change (touchwood it won't happen) and I need to sell my collection, I certainly do not see myself as a flipper as I never intended to sell my collection in the first place.

Let me just add. I have never purchased a shig/kato at inflated prices so I am not a contributor to the price hike that people call 'market'.
 
I can think of at least one chef who buys existent collections of rare knives and then flips them on us for a profit. Often times offering a custom handle, but other times just selling for a mark up because the knife isn't available elsewhere. I think it's a classic case of double standards.


Andreu said:
With all do respect, Craig I am now a bit concern. I am concern because I had acquired a BNIB Shigefusa Kitaeji from another member to whom I respect and will remain nameless. While I have no intention of selling the knife, I will use it as an example.

If for some reason this BNIB knife that I paid over $100.00 over retail was not what I had expected and didn’t use it nor sharpen it, it is still considered BNIB. If I post it in BST to sell for the same amount that I bought the knife for, which is over your $100.00 threshold, and my description of the knife states BNIB, will you then label me as a “flipper” unjustly?

As you can see, it is not that simple. You can quickly jump to conclusion that based on my pricing and description, that I am a “flipper” without knowing exactly the story behind it. On the other hand, how will you know if the member is telling the truth or just copy my scenario and lie so he can “lawfully” flip the knife?

I am not questioning your positioning on this issue nor defending any flippers. I am merely stating my concern.
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Great post Andreu.
 
Gentlemen Gentlemen!
Allow for my retort🙂... Which I will offer shortly. Glad we’re having healthy debate with what I hope includes mutual respect.
 
labor of love said:
Gentlemen Gentlemen!
Allow for my retort🙂... Which I will offer shortly. Glad we’re having healthy debate with what I hope includes mutual respect.
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No debate on my part, my good sir. Just a few concerns and a healthy dose of respect to each KKF members. ✌️😀
 
LucasFur said:
I dont know guys. You guys with 1000's of posts have invested more time into this community than i have.
BUT, as soon as you push the flippers away, it will push the buying traffic market to another location. And im very happy with this forum being among the top places for knife purchases. I wish it was THE world wide undisputed top admittedly (might be) . All kato/shig/kono sales will just be held somewhere else. You cant stop them, inevitably the forum runs the risk of being killed like the fora because people purchasing will go somewhere else for their knife inquiries, and information sharing. If we are going the route of stopping flippers, which is a fair idea, please let me and others know so i can start building my reputation on other sites.
Maybe Taxing them? But then how do you track it? ... bad news all around.
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Fair points and to me this kind of touches on the heart of the issue.

I didn't join this forum because it's the top online market place for hard to acquire knives (or even knives in general - I've only purchased one knife from a member here excluding vendors) and it's not why I continue to read it. I'm here because I like geeking out about knives and sharpening them. And so far, to me at least, this has been the best English language source for that. I've read and learned about a lot, even going beyond knives themselves.

I own a bunch of knives but my collection doesn't happen to contain any Katos, Shigs, Konos (or Burkes, Haburns, Raders etc etc etc). And that's not to say I see a problem with people who love and actively pursue those knives. I would love to try some of them out. I also don't begrude anyone who wants to collect knives for financial/investment, rarity, or bragging reasons. It's not where my interests lie or what my financial situation affords me. But hell, your money is your money. Do what makes you happy.

But I do find the idea sad of this community (not just KKF but knife forums online in general) becoming less about an open, warm, fun, place to share information about knives and instead becoming more of a commercialized, feeding-frenzy for certain knives that are perceived to be "the best."
 
Andreu said:
With all do respect, Craig I am now a bit concern. I am concern because I had acquired a BNIB Shigefusa Kitaeji from another member to whom I respect and will remain nameless. While I have no intention of selling the knife, I will use it as an example.

If for some reason this BNIB knife that I paid over $100.00 over retail was not what I had expected and didn’t use it nor sharpen it, it is still considered BNIB. If I post it in BST to sell for the same amount that I bought the knife for, which is over your $100.00 threshold, and my description of the knife states BNIB, will you then label me as a “flipper” unjustly?

As you can see, it is not that simple. You can quickly jump to conclusion that based on my pricing and description, that I am a “flipper” without knowing exactly the story behind it. On the other hand, how will you know if the member is telling the truth or just copy my scenario and lie so he can “lawfully” flip the knife?

I am not questioning your positioning on this issue nor defending any flippers. I am merely stating my concern.
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So, you bought a knife you wanted...you paid over retail to come into possession of it...and in order to protect its resale value you haven’t used it. If you decide this knife isn’t right for you you’re bummed out at the idea that you cannot resale the knife for what you paid for it here(hypothetically speaking).
You’re not a flipper, just a guy that bought a knife off a flipper...or a guy that bought a knife off a guy who bought a knife off a guy that bought a knife off another guy that was a flipper.
I get it. I understand. But I don’t want BST to turn into a speculative market where we’re always buying and trading based on future returns. This reality is best left to eBay or cktg or some other place.
Your investment is good. You will not have a problem reselling it privately here or publicly somewhere else.
This forum and its BST ultimately shouldn’t be a representation of a speculative market but instead should take on the spirit of a high end flea market.
 
panda said:
why would you buy a knife above retail if you had no intention of using it? collectors ruin it for the rest of us who actually use these things, you guys are annoying.
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I cannot speak for everyone here but believe it or not, all the knives that I bought, whether below retail or above retail, were intended to be used. It’s a different story if you buy a knife and when you recieved it, you know it’s not for you. I see some knives for sale that says “catch and release.” Maybe you can enlighten me on that term.

panda said:
you guys are annoying.
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And you think with this type of comment doesn’t ruin this community? And here I am thinking that this is supposed to be a close knitted community.
 
Yeah guys stop ruining the community by announcing your annoyances. This is a friendly family forum.
 
labor of love said:
So, you bought a knife you wanted...you paid over retail to come into possession of it...and in order to protect its resale value you haven’t used it. If you decide this knife isn’t right for you you’re bummed out at the idea that you cannot resale the knife for what you paid for it here(hypothetically speaking).
You’re not a flipper, just a guy that bought a knife off a flipper...or a guy that bought a knife off a guy who bought a knife off a guy that bought a knife off another guy that was a flipper.
I get it. I understand. But I don’t want BST to turn into a speculative market where we’re always buying and trading based on future returns. This reality is best left to eBay or cktg or some other place.
Your investment is good. You will not have a problem reselling it privately here or publicly somewhere else.
This forum and its BST ultimately shouldn’t be a representation of a speculative market but instead should take on the spirit of a high end flea market.
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Thanks for replying to my comment, Craig. I just wanted to state my concerns.

Also, I don’t buy knives based on future returns. I buy knives with the intention of using them regarless of the price. I even made a comment on a previous post where the OP stated that he bought a knife and couldn’t use it because it was beautiful and using it will ruin the purpose of the knife. I made a respectful comment stating that I thought the original intended purpose of a knife is to cut things.

I’m fairly new here but with other members being here for a while now, why has this been alowed in the first place and why has this been allowed to continue if this was really a concern? Why just now? Why is it that some respected and long time known members were allowed to buy/sell knives at above retail price unmolested while new or fairly new members are being targeted by saying “ruining it for everybody?”

I reiterate that I am not siding with anyone here. I am speaking for myself only. Not as a flipper, but as a concerned member.
 
Andreu said:
I cannot speak for everyone here but believe it or not, all the knives that I bought, whether below retail or above retail, were intended to be used. It’s a different story if you buy a knife and when you recieved it, you know it’s not for you. I see some knives for sale that says “catch and release.” Maybe you can enlighten me on that term.
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I bought a ks recently as a catch and release...I wanted to see how different the new ones were from the old ones... sold it for what I had in it after one use...catch and release is fine imo, it's the catch, markup, and release that annoys me.
 
chinacats said:
I bought a ks recently as a catch and release...I wanted to see how different the new ones were from the old ones... sold it for what I had in it after one use...catch and release is fine imo, it's the catch, markup, and release that annoys me.
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Thank you, sir. I wanted to make sure that I am on the same page as most of you.

But that brings me back to my concern. Others maybe thinking that some of the members are buying marked up knives for collecting purposes and ruining it for everybody. There are members, such as myself, buy marked up knives to give it a try and to find out what the hype is all about. How can one member try a knife if it’s rare and not readily available through a vendor? It’s not that I am supporting these “flippers” or members who are not flippers but selling knives at a market value. It just so happen to be that the knife that I want to try is available only in BST with a marked up price. I know that I am not alone on this as I had seen other long time member buy knives at a marked up price.

Members here have different opinions on this matter. Some members will choose not to buy a knife because it’s inflated. Some members will choose to buy a knife only because it is only available through BST and are willing to pay the premium. I have done both. Does this mean I’m a collector? No. Does this mean I’m ruining it for everybody by buying a marked up knife? My answer is no but others may think otherwise.

If you won’t buy a marked up knife, then you know where you stand. But that doesn’t mean other members are annoying (not your opinion but someone else’s opinion) just because they decide to buy an inflated knife. For all we know, they truly just want to try the knife or had tried it and want a different knife made by the same bladesmith that is only available through BST.

Believe me, I even tried helping other members (not just a couple) look for knives and try to get a better deal regardless whether through a vendor or private party. I could have made some money as a flipper but for the sake of my integrity and for the spirit of helping others within our KKF community, I chose not to.
 
panda said:
why would you buy a knife above retail if you had no intention of using it? collectors ruin it for the rest of us who actually use these things, you guys are annoying.
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For the same reason i go to Gentleman's Clubs with no hope of fornication.
 
The question is do you go to the strip club
feel entitled to be entertained for free :rofl:
 
HRC_64 said:
The question is do you go to the strip club
feel entitled to be entertained for free :rofl:
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Usually there's a mandatory coat check and/or drink minimum. Nothing in life is free, not even a peek at some tt's
 
HRC_64 said:
The question is do you go to the strip club
feel entitled to be entertained for free :rofl:
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I tried to a few times and felt like a cheap jerk lol. The ladies don't get a dime of admission fees or drink minimums. I visit less frequently but bring more money with each visit. No point in going with $40 in your pocket.
 
This has made the rounds and we (mod team) think everyone that's going to comment has. A couple times. The members seem to gravitate towards one of three groups:


1) Leave BST as is. Rationale being: If it ain't broke, don't fix it. The "flipper" posts are a small minority of the many posts in bst. Terms like "free market" and "let the buyer beware" get tossed around a lot and while not completely applicable, do have some merit.

2) Make BST wide open as best described in PT's post re "Badger and Blade" Members are free to "call out" over-pricing, flipping, (or anything else that floats their boat) Rationale seems to be: Let the members do their own policing. The mod team likes this approach but recognizes that the difficulty here is that unless it was largely not moderated at all this would place an undue burden on the moderators - checking prices, verifying claims of "profiteering", etc. This also has the potential of turning into a huge sh!t show. Not me thanks.

3) Make BST a one and you're done type sub-forum. No comments. I've asked if it is possible to allow a member to post a knife, then auto close the thread? (We all know the member won't close it himself) and the answer was not with current software. It is also not possible for member to be the only one who can edit so they can update thread as necc. The only way this could be feasible is for mods to close threads after posting and update at members behest. And that ain't happening.

Elements that were part of the decision included: We are not going to spend more time on BST than we already do - it is by far the most resource intensive subforum. We're not going to arbitrate who is a seller with a lower case "s" as opposed to someone who should be a sorta vendor. We're not going to price check back to who sold it for what and when. We're not going to count how many knives a member sold last month to see if they've exceeded some quota.

The mods have determined that the best fit for all concerned is leaving bst the way it is. Anyone meeting entry criteria can post what they will for whatever price they deem reasonable. It is not for other members to comment on price or quality of product. Responses will be limited to questions, favorable experiences with similar knives or "pm sent". Other responses will be deleted without explanation and posters WILL have a 30 day vaca from bst. For those that simply must save the world from an overpriced knife I suggest you drink a big ole glass of S*T*F*U first.

All that said, the mods also recognize that some abuse of the spirit / intent of bst may take place from time to time. Reporting a post is one form of relief available - be sure to include all pertinent info and supporting links. And I don't care (speaking for myself here) if a thread based on "Flipper alert" is started and updated - but not within BST. (Of course civility would be a requirement.)

Hope everyone understands how we got to this decision. I've no intention to argue it further but did want to explain it.

Thanks to all that contributed to this thread. Except StonedEdge.

Cheers.
 
Aaaahhh come on, stonedge has a valid POV... I found the glib and thoughtless commentary as a real window into the other side as rather illuminating, and roundly flat. B for participation.
 
Works for me. I did not expect that any complicated policing to be applicable as it would be very resources heavy and would still probably yield more discontent than the current situation. Enouradging users to report BST threads if the flipping gets unbearable should be sufficient measure. I am curious how many I going to have the gut to point fingers in a 'Flipper alert' thread though :)

BTW, I do not think that locking a BST thread is such a great idea as it does not allow relevant questions to be asked - it is quite common that a potential buyer wants to ask about some aspects of the knife (more detailed measurements or such).
 
The "polite flipper alert" thread is perhaps not a bad solution to this problem given the difficulty that Dave has outlined with the other options. Or maybe it should be called "is this a flip?"
 
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