TF or Watanabe?

[dwalker]

I think these 3 are pretty legendary and you can't go wrong with either. I did hear from another forum that Toyama makes the Watanabes (at least the kasumi and honyakis).

Not true at all.

 

[chinacats]

I did hear from another forum that Toyama makes the Watanabes (at least the kasumi and honyakis).

I'm pretty sure you're wrong...bet I can guess where you read it though...

 

[HRC_64]

Toyama was of retirement age well before KKF even existed.
(He's approaching 80 or something, isn't he?)

 

[jacko9]

I have two T-F's a 240 Nashiji Gyuto and a 150 Nashiji Petty - bought them both with the Ebony handle (not available currently). I also have the Toyama 150 Petty. I like the W#1 steel of the T-F but, both my T-F's are more "rustic" than my Toyama which out of the box was excellent fit and finish and takes a great edge. My guess is that both blacksmiths heat treat their knives to the higher end of the RcH scale and both can be chippy if not used with care. Of the three knives the one that I use the most is the T-F Petty (daily use because it keeps such a great edge and because the Toyama Petty is too tall at times using a Petty)

 

[Corradobrit1]

both can be chippy if not used with care.

From what I can see I think this tendency to chip is related to how the TF's are finished ie on a water wheel (?). Looking at the OOTB edge under a magnifying glass you'll see how toothy it is.
5 mins on the stones when you receive the knife makes the blade edge a lot more stable from that perspective.

 

[jacko9]

I think your correct and my T-F 240 Gyuto was just fine after I did a full progression on the stones. My T-F 150 Petty however did chip after a slight screwup when I hit the blade on a metal sink (not the blacksmiths fault but an indication of just how hard the blade was heat treated). I had a similar accident with my Toyama Petty (I guess this shows my faulty knife skills) where I chipped the edge with a twisting cut (I know again not the blacksmiths fault).

 

[lemeneid]

Yeah, he's a knife maker not a handle maker...but he's a really good knife maker.

Yeah but I assumed a knifemaker with his experience would have experience making many different knives, even western ones. ‍

 

[captaincaed]

Just picked up a TF Denka, no experience with the others unfortunately, and here are my thoughts:
1. I got to choose between two, and opted for the heavier/beefier copy. It’s substantial, but still well balanced (both were, actually). Mine does not seem to have an overgrind on the blade road, which was my main concern. If it’s too fat, fine, I can take metal away, but it can never be put back.
2. The other knife seemed to have a distinct overgrind near the heel. This is the version the shop would have sent had I not inspected myself. It is a bit challenging to check, but worth the time.
3. The handle’s not a looker, the spine is harsh, and it’s ugly where the bolster meets the blade.
4. I don’t give a damn. I can round these with sandpaper and a block on a slow weekend if I care to.
5. It whispers through food. That slick, convex stainless jacket over a hard-as-nails blue core (a metal blend that TF has apparently designed himself, if you believe the legends) means that the knife burns through produce like an Australian Bush Fire after a summer drought. I mean, Jesus. It’s got the Top Gear x-factor for me. I don’t want a cigarette, I just want another onion to murder.
6. Food release isn’t the best (my Kochi and Carter (not Muteki) are better). But, it’s pretty damn good, #3 of many. This was also true for the shop’s test cutter TF Maboroshi.
7. I think both the Maboroshi and Denka would be fantastic. It was my birthday after a big health scare, so I splurged on the Denka.

All that said, I’ve never touched either other knife you’re considering. Grain of salt, mate.

 

[Corradobrit1]

The good TF's are truly special, warts and all. Avoiding overground examples is key, especially if near the edge. Most other issues are easily remedied. Being quirky just adds to their charm so long as the basics are done right.

Funny comment about murdering onions. My sentiments entirely.

And its true that TF's W#1 and AS core steels are proprietary.

 

[Drosophil]

Yeah but I assumed a knifemaker with his experience would have experience making many different knives, even western ones. ‍

The blades don't have much to do with the handles, he doesn't make the wa handles either.

 

[labor of love]

TF owners...you guys prefer the AS steel over wh1? I’m curious in terms of steel performance ONLY which one is favored and why?
Or are they pretty similar?

 

[Corradobrit1]

TF owners...you guys prefer the AS steel over wh1? I’m curious in terms of steel performance ONLY which one is favored and why?
Or are they pretty similar?

Both will sharpen to a very keen edge. My AS Denka is much thinner behind the edge compared to the W#1 Nashiji and Maboroshi, yet it remains sharper longer. After a couple of weeks home use the W#1 needs touching up. The AS is a few months old and apart from a quick 5 mins on the stones to tidy the OOTB edge has not needed further attention. YMMV.

 

[captaincaed]

Mine’s still new, but I could write a post-mortem a bit later. The OOTB edge was just silly sharp, gets stuck in the board and cuts rolled magazine pages.

If the love is strong, I may very likely pick up a white petty.

 

[bruce8088]

TF owners...you guys prefer the AS steel over wh1? I’m curious in terms of steel performance ONLY which one is favored and why?
Or are they pretty similar?

Perhaps I can chime in... I've had the chance to own both and AS is better by miles in terms of edge retention - They both get as keen off the stones to the contrary of steel composition (white 1 being more pure by specs). As already covered by folks above, teruyasu fujiwara knives are very rustic but they can be very awesome if you do find a great sample.

 

[labor of love]

Perhaps I can chime in... I've had the chance to own both and AS is better by miles in terms of edge retention - They both get as keen off the stones to the contrary of steel composition (white 1 being more pure by specs). As already covered by folks above, teruyasu fujiwara knives are very rustic but they can be very awesome if you do find a great sample.

Are you referring to nashiji or no meito here in comparison to denka?

 

[bruce8088]

Are you referring to nashiji or no meito here in comparison to denka?

I mean both. Nashiji is abit lower hardness (I believe I've read in another forum about this before as well). If you can't stand the rustic part of a teruyasu fujiwara then you should aim for a great sample of a wa handled denka.

 

[Corradobrit1]

My non scientific experience is that the W#1 used for Maboroshi gives an edge that is more durable. The fact that the Nashiji is a gyuto and the Mab is a petty could have some bearing. I was told the elemental composition is slightly different for the 2 lines so there could be an element of truth there.

 

[parbaked]

I was at TF in April and they explained that Maboroshi and Nashiji use different grades of White #1.
They had an old book from Hitachi that listed the composition of the different grades of Shirogami #1 and the other Hitachi steels.
Maboroshi uses Grade A which has 1.3 to 1.4 percent carbon by weight.
Nahiji uses Grade B which has 1.2 - 1.3 percent carbon by weight.

The higher carbon content in Grade A helps compensate for carbon lost during forging.

 

[Jkts]

Shinichi Watanabe was trained by Toyama. Shinichi is also from a multi generation knife making family.

Toyama himself was trained by a Watanabe.

They have very similar styles.

However, Toyama does not make Watanabe’s knives.

The handles are supplied by a handle specialist. From what I understand, sourcing quality handles is a challenge. He told me that one of his better sources for keyaki handles had retired.

His knives definitely are made for wa handles with very few exceptions. I love his style, but if you want a western handle, not the way to go.

I visited Shinichi’s workshop in Sanjo. His family helps out with the knife making. The pro-line is made by Shinichi himself.

 

[captaincaed]

I was at TF in April and they explained that Maboroshi and Nashiji use different grades of White #1.
They had an old book from Hitachi that listed the composition of the different grades of Shirogami #1 and the other Hitachi steels.
Maboroshi uses Grade A which has 1.3 to 1.4 percent carbon by weight.
Nahiji uses Grade B which has 1.2 - 1.3 percent carbon by weight.

The higher carbon content in Grade A helps compensate for carbon lost during forging.

Man I didn’t realize there were sub-grades within the normal 1,2,3 grades from Hitachi. Now I don’t even know what to believe anymore. Maybe I should just orient all my maps so Australia is on top. There’s no reason not to, right?

 

[Itsalright]

I own both brands knives @ 24cm. I find watanabe to be a little bit thicker and more muscular knife while TF is lighter.
Fit and finish on watanabe is exceptional while TF gets its real edge after maintentance

 

[ared715]

The steel is the definite highlight of TF knives IMO.... I have two and they don’t get used very regularly.... one 210 I got directly from him with finger rest (nashiji) and the other I got from knifewear (nashiji 195 western). The grind on the 195 is much thinner and smoother with less pronounced shoulders but the 210 is much thicker with very pronounced shoulders and wedges a lot. I requested a thin knife and got what seems to be almost mioroshi Deba -like.... while it has its uses, it doesn’t get used much at all....
The steel is awesome though,hardest white steel variant I’ve ever come across....

 

[Itsalright]

The steel is the definite highlight of TF knives IMO.... I have two and they don’t get used very regularly.... one 210 I got directly from him with finger rest (nashiji) and the other I got from knifewear (nashiji 195 western). The grind on the 195 is much thinner and smoother with less pronounced shoulders but the 210 is much thicker with very pronounced shoulders and wedges a lot. I requested a thin knife and got what seems to be almost mioroshi Deba -like.... while it has its uses, it doesn’t get used much at all....
The steel is awesome though,hardest white steel variant I’ve ever come across....

I thought nashiji line didnt have finger rest option

 

[labor of love]

Finally picked up wh1 no meito gyuto. Very happy with it. Kinda kicking myself for not trying it sooner. Classics are classic for a reason.

 

[masibu]

Finally picked up wh1 no meito gyuto. Very happy with it. Kinda kicking myself for not trying it sooner. Classics are classic for a reason.

Ive been wanting to try one for years. How does it compare to watanabe? I like my wat but it's pretty beastly. Ive used 2 tf petty knives and whilst they both needed work on the bevels with coarse stones I found it was ridiculously easy to grind. I've thought about shaving with one just for kicks

 

[ared715]

I requested one while ordering direct and he did it for me on a Nakiri and 210 Gyuto

 

[ared715]

210 Gyuto w finger rest.

 

[labor of love]

Ive been wanting to try one for years. How does it compare to watanabe? I like my wat but it's pretty beastly. Ive used 2 tf petty knives and whilst they both needed work on the bevels with coarse stones I found it was ridiculously easy to grind. I've thought about shaving with one just for kicks

Mine is lighter than I thought it would be. It’s somrwhere between 190-200 grams, 53mm x 244mm. I was expecting to put in thinning work ootb but surprisingly I like how it cuts-a lot. Infact I’ll likely wait as long as I can for thinning. F&F is on par with a metal master Tanaka. whatever high/low spots that hide underneath the finish don’t effect performance. Food release is very good. I’m still in my honeymoon phase so I really want to hold off until I can test it more but so far I’ve used it for 5 shifts at work and I like it a helluva lot.

 

[ared715]

I need to try a maboroshi too labor... did you order yours direct? Last time I emailed TF he suggested me to order a maboroshi if I wanted a thinner blade overall....

 

[labor of love]

Well this is the only no meito Ive ever used so I don’t know if it’s thin or thick compared to others. I went through bernal, hounded them first with my concerns haha...they only have 1 more 240mm wa left in stock and they said the one I purchased was in much better condition than the other one. They may have a selection of westerns though.... anyway if I were you I’d harass them about not wanting a hole in the edge or serious overgrinds and see what they say...better than going direct I think Atleast for no meito. Eventually I’ll try and grab a denka direct.