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in heat treating, there are steps which dont lend themselves well to large quantities due to time constraints, the amount of work involved in each step, tight tolerances, and so on. On the other hand, there are steps which lend themselves very well to large batch heat treating. Depending on the kind of steel, the results you are looking for, etc, the ideal process will vary. Its not magic, just reality. It also generally happens to be true that the more you try and push the limits of the steel with which you are working, the more attention to detail in each step, and the more time sensitive each step is.

Take AEB-l for example... on paper, its a truly unremarkable steel... not a high amount of carbon, no crazy alloying, etc... just a pretty simple steel. I get the sense that people feel like its a super steel, but in reality, its got less than 0.7% carbon, which most users here would generally scoff at. As a comparison, 440c, which is a steel that nearly everyone here thinks of as subpar, looks a lot better on paper. The fact is that both steels have potential to be great (yes, there are good knives out there with composition like 440c), and both can be crappy. It depends on the makers knowledge of the steel and abilities in heat treating. As i said before, you will find that some steels lend themselves better to small batch heat treating (when you are looking for specific results and are pushing the boundaries of what that steel can do), while others work great in large batches.
 
spaceconvoy said:
Really? I think it's an apt comparison, given the limitations of the knife world. Your 2nd to last paragraph is a good description of both, although I wouldn't say 'prey,' because poor and ignorant people genuinely WANT what they're both selling... As to how clueless I am, all I can say is :)
Click to expand...

With Walmart, I think that the customers' expectations for quality are lower: they know they're buying cheap crap for the most part. Where Walmart is deceitful is in how it portrays itself as a benevolent and altruistic organization with the best interest and well-being of it's employees and it's customers' communities in mind.
In the case of CKTG, I think that the customer wants value and the DESCRIPTION of what Mark's selling. With the exception of perhaps Moritaka and some of the Richmond brand, I'd say that what he's selling is actually pretty clear and is no different than any other retailer other than lower prices and sometimes better availability of exclusive or hard to get items (sometimes this is actually due to special agreements between Mark and the supply source to make CKTG the only US retailer of a particular product). The vast majority of what he sell is not crap.
But again, where Mark deviates from just plain ol' capitalism is when he attempts to pass off flawed and inferior products as equivalent to something of much higher quality.

spaceconvoy said:
Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did.
Click to expand...
Yep, I thought the same thing and still do. It was clear that his enthusiasm far out-paced his knowledge and his desire to make money is stronger still. Certainly nothing to damn him for, and he had a dorky, enthusiastic likeability to him. I think that initial problems with the Mori and Richmond knives came from his own lack of knowledge and listening to bad advice and feedback from people who either knew even less than him or where flat-out bullshite artists (Kenny S.). However, how long does that excuse really last for? How many years in the business and how hard is it to hold a crap knife next to a good knife and see / feel the difference? Yeah there are excuses like CKTG grew too fast and his margins and turn-around times are too razor thin to do proper quality control, but it doesn't make it right. At some point he had to realize that there where serious problems with some of the knives going out his door and he chose to do nothing (or not enough) about it. I'm sure the way that he justified it and still doesn't feel like hes doing anything wrong is because people keep buy the crap and saying that it smells like roses.
spaceconvoy said:
If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.
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couldn't agree with you more
 
Did you know that the majority of Amazon comments are fake and paid for? I mean, common, capitalistic practices are ruining small shops, you want it or not. And how they say it - it's all fair in love and war - and capitalism is essentially a war between competitors.
I really liked this comment:
Competition is good, except when it effects you (or your friends in this case), right?
Click to expand...

Unfortunately the cookie crumbles not like we would love it to sometimes :(
 
spaceconvoy said:
Do you remember when Mark first joined the boards? I remember him as seeming to be a decent guy, had his own small retail operation, and seemed to be genuinely interested in the how and the why of steel, sharpening, etc. I don't believe Mark started with deceit in his heart, like he wanted to use our collective knowledge to further his career... Maybe he was a con artist from the beginning and maybe I'm naive, but I prefer to believe that he was a genuine enthusiast who happened to be in a position to make a profit, and so he did. If anyone's to blame, I'd point my finger at the consumer, who has continued to reward him for questionable behavior.
Click to expand...

Yes. I remember. He pushed Shapton Glasstones, didn't know how to flatten a stone, or sharpen until Dave Martell showed him how.

He also started selling all of Dave's recommended stones and sold them at a discount versus Dave's prices to take away Dave's stones sales, which he did, took Dave's reviews as his own, and began selling many other products sold by others vendor that were popular, e.g. Fujiwara Teruyasu, Sakai Yusuke, etc. - or openly copying products - e.g., Gray Kunz spoon.

If he were a "genuine enthusiast" as you put it, you would think he would know more about geometry - which he apparently doesn't based on the various knives in his own line that he sells that have horrible geometries based on reviews here, that he would have gone to Japan years ago - he's only gone once, he would have learned more about knife making, sharpening or grinding that he would at least understand or be able to do some work on his own - he doesn't, etc.

And, based on reviews I've read here about the AEB-L of the Artifex, it's not a good steel. Some of the great qualities of properly heat treated AEB-L, e.g., ease of sharpening, carbon steel-like performance, are absent from the Artifex AEB-L.

And, if you're going to continue shopping him, then you too are continuing to reward him for questionable behavior. It's your choice. But, you're exactly the type of consumer you just criticized.
 
I don't know why anyone bothers to respond to the ranting of this "cowboy". He wants to shill for the other guy and makes up arguments that are pretty absurd. This thread is now in my kill file.
 
I picked up both a Tojiro DP and the Artifex 210 gyutos.

While I like the feel of the Artifex in my hand over the Tojiro, the blade doesn't seem to bite into the food.
Compared to that, the Tojiro seems to laser through everything.
It's weird, if I use just a little force, the Artifex works great, but if I am gentle, it doesn't catch.

Is this a matter of steel? Did I get duped?

I sharpen all 4 of my knives the same way from a rough all the way to 5000, the Tojiro, Yoshikane and the Artifex all get the same treatment.
But the the Artifex doesn't bite?


Is there a specific way to sharpen the Artifex that I'm doing wrong?
 
Culverin said:
I picked up both a Tojiro DP and the Artifex 210 gyutos.

While I like the feel of the Artifex in my hand over the Tojiro, the blade doesn't seem to bite into the food.
Compared to that, the Tojiro seems to laser through everything.
It's weird, if I use just a little force, the Artifex works great, but if I am gentle, it doesn't catch.

Is this a matter of steel? Did I get duped?

I sharpen all 4 of my knives the same way from a rough all the way to 5000, the Tojiro, Yoshikane and the Artifex all get the same treatment.
But the the Artifex doesn't bite?


Is there a specific way to sharpen the Artifex that I'm doing wrong?
Click to expand...

That would be because the stock geometry is crap.
 
Best comparison yet is Mark to wallyworld. They both sell crap and count on their customers to either not know or not care. I don't/won't shop at either of those crappy retailers. I do feel sorry for those duped by either as I have been duped by both in the past myself.

Cheers
 
Not to slam anyone on this thread or forum I have found that those that embrace capitalism in this fashion (by using examples like Wal-Mart) are usually for capitalism for their own gain. I am aiming this at the consumer as if prices drop in the throes of competition then they end up paying less for what they want. Most people are too narrow minded to see that this is why our economy is in a downward spiral. More Mom and Pops cannot afford to buy small quantities and resell at a profit because the larger organizations are paying people minimum wage and buying in ultra bulk amounts to get the pricing at absolute rock bottom. Which is all well and good as long as it does not affect your specific profession. Too many people these days are me me me and want to work less to afford things. That situation is understandable, but comes at a price. I know I am fairly new here, but enjoy this community for what it is and personally choose to help support this community.

Now I am sure I will get slammed back by people explaining themselves again and how that is the way to do it because that is the way it is done in other larger sectors of the economy. I choose to support people that deserve to be supported. The way it used to be in the old days. Just remember the only reason the old days are the old days is that common practices and courtesies have been put to the wayside to save a buck here and there. If saving that buck here or there is more important to you, then you are part of the problem, no matter how you try to convince me or others why it is ok to do it.

Don't mistake my input into this conversation to be any form of fanboyism or whining, as I was not around when the actions discussed here happened. This can be the same conversation on any number of forums in any number of languages world wide.

Now it is time for people to get defensive and lash out.

FLAME ON!!!
:angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode::angryexplode:
 
I don't think that comparing Mark to Walmart is fair to Walmart. Although Walmart sells some low quality house-branded items, everyone knows that they are lower quality and they charge a lower price for them. At CKTG, the house branded products are priced similar to well-known premium products and he advertises them as though they are premium products. For various reasons, I won't trust many of reviews that I've seen; and even if I could trust them they are short on comparisons to known products. But bad data is bad data, not a proven lie. Unfortunately, it is difficult to get any idea if these products are any good because it is taboo to discuss them here. Sorry, I'm not in the habit of shelling out $100 out of curiosity. I consider this a (unfortunately not very active) hobby and I do my research before I make a purchase. For the record, based on the what little information that I have gleaned, there aren't any house-brand stones over that that would give me a compelling reason to try them. Thank you to those who provided real information on the products, not just rehashed information on people and business practices.

I don't mean to defend or demonize Mark. If you recall (some of you may not have even been around that far back), the community encouraged Mark to start carrying knives from various Japanese makers that were relatively difficult to acquire, often needing to be shipped direct from Japan after a multiple month wait. Mark made those knives immediately available to the community. Things went sideways when he started carrying sharpening supplies. Dave spent months researching products like the Atoma plates and Suhiro Rika 5K, and Mark immediately started carrying them for a discount. Then he started carrying the Immanishi 10K stone and letting people think that it was the same as Dave's JKS 10K (Dave verified that his 10K stone was unique and will no longer be made). I would pay Dave double for those products before I would ever consider looking at CKTG for them. I also know that there was some bad blood between Keith of HA and Dave; I never found out why or what happened there, but I can only imagine it was also related to some stolen research. And then Mark went off the deep-end, pushing products like the "Gizmo" and Edge-Pro while failing to warn customers about the caveats of such devices; "designing" and selling knives without any apparent review or refinement process while marketing them as beyond incredible. Those practices are not only unfair to the competition, but they do a disservice to his customers as well.

Yes, what happened sucks. And no, I have no intention of rewarding them where he crossed the line. I would never send anyone over there for advice. But you know what? I would still buy a CCK cleaver from him; he did the work to contact CCK so that he could import them and make them readily available to the US market because we asked him to do it. But, it's been 2+ years since this started and I still can't even try to get a little information about products that they are exclusively offering, products that they haven't stolen any research on, without starting more of this nonsense on this site.
 
toddnmd said:
I don't like the sense that we can't have an open, honest discussion on here.
Click to expand...

Yes! This is the heart of the problem

JBroida said:
in heat treating, there are steps which dont lend themselves well to large quantities due to time constraints, the amount of work involved in each step, tight tolerances, and so on. On the other hand, there are steps which lend themselves very well to large batch heat treating. Depending on the kind of steel, the results you are looking for, etc, the ideal process will vary. Its not magic, just reality. It also generally happens to be true that the more you try and push the limits of the steel with which you are working, the more attention to detail in each step, and the more time sensitive each step is.

Take AEB-l for example... on paper, its a truly unremarkable steel... not a high amount of carbon, no crazy alloying, etc... just a pretty simple steel. I get the sense that people feel like its a super steel, but in reality, its got less than 0.7% carbon, which most users here would generally scoff at. As a comparison, 440c, which is a steel that nearly everyone here thinks of as subpar, looks a lot better on paper. The fact is that both steels have potential to be great (yes, there are good knives out there with composition like 440c), and both can be crappy. It depends on the makers knowledge of the steel and abilities in heat treating. As i said before, you will find that some steels lend themselves better to small batch heat treating (when you are looking for specific results and are pushing the boundaries of what that steel can do), while others work great in large batches.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the explanation Jon. I can imagine that a small batch of aeb-l from Devin would have better performance than an Artifex, but I'm curious how significant the difference actually is (probably hard to find anyone who owns both a DT custom and an Artifex). I still think that many here reflexively crap on Mark's aeb-l due to biased reviews from particular people. It's not super steel, but very decent, especially for the price.

I don't have much experience with different steels, but I've owned an Aritsugu A-ko, Konosuke regular stainless and HD, and Misono swedish. Mark's aeb-l is better than Konosuke's regular stainless, harder, better edge retention, easier to sharpen and deburr. Significantly enough that I can say so with confidence even though it's been a while since I owned the Konosuke. I'm hesitant to compare the HD, because it's much closer to Mark's aeb-l. My impression is the HD was slightly harder to deburr and had slightly better edge retention, but either way it's definitely similar in quality.

So based on my experience, I get suspicious when certain people with skin in the game say Mark's aeb-l is gummy, hard to deburr, has bad edge retention, etc. Maybe I lucked out and they got a bad one... Kinda sad that it's hard to trust anyone anymore, which is probably the worst effect of the Great Schism of '11.
 
mhlee said:
If he were a "genuine enthusiast" as you put it, you would think he would know more about geometry - which he apparently doesn't based on the various knives in his own line that he sells that have horrible geometries based on reviews here, that he would have gone to Japan years ago - he's only gone once, he would have learned more about knife making, sharpening or grinding that he would at least understand or be able to do some work on his own - he doesn't, etc.

And, based on reviews I've read here about the AEB-L of the Artifex, it's not a good steel. Some of the great qualities of properly heat treated AEB-L, e.g., ease of sharpening, carbon steel-like performance, are absent from the Artifex AEB-L.

And, if you're going to continue shopping him, then you too are continuing to reward him for questionable behavior. It's your choice. But, you're exactly the type of consumer you just criticized.
Click to expand...

I said he WAS a genuine enthusiast :)

Either those reviews are biased, I got an excellent Artifex, or they got crappy ones... I really wish I knew. I can say with confidence that the aeb-l of my particular Artifex is very decent steel, is easy to sharpen, somewhat carbon-like, easy to deburr, and has decent edge retention.

I don't remember saying I was going to continue shopping there though... My next purchase is probably going to be a baseless Suehiro Rika, which I'm planning to get from Tools from Japan, because I do feel dirty giving my money to Mark.

But I would have gladly bought another Artifex if he made a 240 gyuto in 52100 (before I found out about the Lamson collaboration knife). Why? Because I love the narrow sabatier profile, which no one else is doing. And I actually prefer the balance and feel of bolster-less full-tang knives. Wa handles are too blade heavy and don't feel as sturdy, bolstered knives are too handle heavy... The point is, he was the only one offering the kind of knife I wanted, so I wouldn't have minded rewarding him for it. Now thanks to Pierre and Tom, I will gladly pay extra for a knife I don't have to spend hours thinning.
 
toddnmd said:
I wish I had an idea of the product you're referring to. I'd guess a good number of other people are confused as well.

I don't like the sense that we can't have an open, honest discussion on here.
Click to expand...
what are you talking about? seems to me people are being brutally honest here, almost too honest. i think its funny that the original point of this thread was to hear honest feedback about marks stones, yet nobody besides me and One other person have chimed in with an opinion. to the OP,that should really tell you something.
 
SpikeC said:
I don't know why anyone bothers to respond to the ranting of this "cowboy". He wants to shill for the other guy and makes up arguments that are pretty absurd. This thread is now in my kill file.
Click to expand...

Nice attitude. Just dismiss what I'm saying and don't bother responding to any of my points. Since you're not going to do it, would anyone else care to explain how exactly I'm shilling for Mark or making up absurd arguments?

Timthebeaver said:
That would be because the stock geometry is crap.
Click to expand...

Correct! The Artifex needs hours of thinning to make it into a decent knife. OOTB bevel is too steep, and thick behind the edge. If we could talk about these problems reasonably, without partisanship or resorting to code words, more noobs would know what they're getting into.
 
spaceconvoy said:
Correct! The Artifex needs hours of thinning to make it into a decent knife. OOTB bevel is too steep, and thick behind the edge. If we could talk about these problems reasonably, without partisanship or resorting to code words, more noobs would know what they're getting into.
Click to expand...

I been to other forums where none of those are talk about and yet they still recommend the Artifex for noobs who have no ideas about bevels, thinning, or even sharpening. Why would anyone recommend a knife that needs a ton of work to noobs is beyond me. Thankfully I found this forum before I fell into that trap.
 
As a relatively new member, interesting to hear some of the backstory. Everytime CKTG pops up people crap all over it and I never understood why. If I'm putting the pieces together right Mark and everyone else use to be on a forum board in the past, but shady business practices blew that apart and KKF was formed? I did buy something from Mark recently, but all this has made me hesitant to do so again.
 
you guys do realize that many of the forum members here are here because we dont like mark, we dont like his phony marketing and his insincerity, and his awful customer service. i would much prefer to let laying dogs lie, but some new forum member, or some new thread appears almost monthly making it necessary to rehash this old crap. if you want to rave about how awesome your artifex is around here, you should really be prepared for criticism or anti mark comments, thats the way things have been for a while and i dont see any reason why that would change.
also, wouldnt it make more sense to simply go to marks forum to discuss his knives? especially how they need to be fixed,lol? im pretty sure most noobs that stick around this forum should know better than to pick up an artifex,if they do their research.
 
I'm going to be brutally honest here. I've stayed out of this discussion because the only thing I have to input to it might bend the rules just a bit (Dave, please feel free to remove this if it does). You guys see on my avatar that I'm a hobbyist knifemaker. I only started making kitchen knives relatively recently (within the last three months). Before I begin making ANY new style of knife (or sword)...I research. A lot. If I can get good examples in hand, I do that. I pore over the internet for any reference to the kind of knife I'm wanting to make. The better the reviews, the more eager I am to pick one up just to see what a properly performing knife of the type I'm intending to design should look like.

I think you can see where I'm going here.

In my research I found this forum...but I also found a TON of references to the Artifex as THE EPITOME of a high performance kitchen knife. On forums, youtube, everywhere. And the price! I thought to myself...'Wow, I'm going to pick one of these up...if they perform like these guys say, this will be a great example to show me (a guy who had never used a better kitchen knife than a 'Good Cook' from WalMart) what a proper high end gyuto should look like!!'. Thank God I ran into Son first...and found this forum...or I literally might have thought that a high performance kitchen knife should be thicker behind the edge than my all purpose prybar EDC.

:eyebrow:

Again...I don't know Mark...I barely know Dave. But I know what I've seen in the marketing for the Artifex...and I know enough (through having made, and used enough kitchen knives that WORK now) to know that the broadhead arrow geometry in the Artifex just doesn't live up to that hype. This is regardless of steel, heat treat, or anything else. I can't stand when people take others for money, and it pisses me off even worse when being open and trusting to a normal degree can get you taken like that. Being ill informed in an arena of flooded marketing hype does NOT give license to someone to screw you for your money.

:rant: off.
 
I don't feel like I'm raving about my Artifex. That's the problem I have with the attitude around here. If Mark did somehow find a good stone, we would never know because anyone who said a kind word about it would be dismissed outright.
 
CompE said:
....Sorry, I'm not in the habit of shelling out $100 out of curiosity. I consider this a (unfortunately not very active) hobby and I do my research before I make a purchase. For the record, based on the what little information that I have gleaned, there aren't any house-brand stones over that that would give me a compelling reason to try them. Thank you to those who provided real information on the products, not just rehashed information on people and business practices.
Click to expand...

Most of the knives and stones, that people are aware of on the forum, are because somebody took a chance and bought one. On the old ITK, Fish and Lee, use to send international postal money orders, to Japan, and then have to wait months, and hope that a knife would show up. I believe it was Lee, who either discovered Takeda or was a very early user. CCK became known, because a knife nut, out of Utah, went into an Asian market and bought one. The Suehiro Rika stones were found by users on Foodie Forum. Heck even the infamous Ken, was an early user of Chosera.


CompE said:
....But, it's been 2+ years since this started and I still can't even try to get a little information about products that they are exclusively offering, products that they haven't stolen any research on, without starting more of this nonsense on this site.
Click to expand...

It's common knowledge that the forum has a negative view of CKTG, and yet you hope to get information on a product that they sell? Some how that doesn't quite add up.

The forum has a lot of good information on popular topics, try to get information on something more obscure and you have to do your own research, as in buying the product.

Jay
 
​
who cares dude?who freakin cares if by some miracle mark happened to discover something on his own instead of copying what other vendors do? again, mark has his own forum, and it really makes more sense to discuss his products there.
 
So............ does anyone know if Black Steel is better than White or Blue?
 
spaceconvoy said:
I don't feel like I'm raving about my Artifex. That's the problem I have with the attitude around here. If Mark did somehow find a good stone, we would never know because anyone who said a kind word about it would be dismissed outright.
Click to expand...

The ironic side of me, says that he finally had a product, that his competitors would find worth stealing.

If the stone was good, it might take the forum a little longer to acknowledge it. If three or four members were to make positive comments, that would get peoples attention. A sharpening guru, who is positive about the stone, would probably create a run.

Jay
 
I think a lot of people who had issues with the Richmond Artifex's AEB-L knives got it when they first came out. If you look at most of the negative reviews regarding gummy burrs on this forum, they're from about 2 years ago. There's been some changes to it compared to the first release, but it appears as if these changes are mainly cosmetic and with heat treatment, not geometry; for example, there's been a light curve added to the choil to make it more comfortable to hold. I purchased a 240 mm AEB-L gyutoback in July before I really started reading this forum, and retrospect, I would have just payed the extra money to get a CarboNext or Gesshin Uraku. However, I put quite a bit of work into the Artifex to thin it down, and it's performing pretty well for me. I also got a good amount of experience thinning and sharpening knives when I was doing this so I consider the experience a plus, and I feel like it's made me better at sharpening knives. I currently use this knife as my beater knife, and I'll loan it to people when necessary. I haven't had enough experience with knives to speak for the edge retention compared to other knives in a similar price range, but I need to sharpen the Artifex every 3 weeks or so using a Suehiro Rika 5k to get the performance that I want from it. I hone using the Messermeister 1200 grit ceramic rod with light pressure, 4-5 strokes a side (8-10 total), on a day to day basis. I work about 60 hours a week in various kitchens and cut mostly on plastic boards. I do keep the knife as clean as I can, but one of the places I work at is a cramp, high volume gastropub so things don't always work out for me. The convex grind that this knife is suppose to have doesn't seem to make a very big difference in terms of food release, but it maybe due to the fact that I ruined it while I was thinning the knife. Even if this is the case though, the fact that the knife necessitates a lot of thinning kind of defeats the purpose of the convex grind. I also notice an overgrind on the knife, although there's a slim chance that this was due to my improper sharpening and thinning, although I don't think that this is the case. I did not know how to spot overgrinds when I first purchased the knife. Either way, there's this small section near the heel where my knife has a small hole in the edge, and it definitely affects cutting performance and ease of sharpening.

I bought a Delbert Ealy 240 mm gyuto made with AEB-L recently, and I've found that it's a bit easier to sharpen and the geometry is much better. It's thinner, wedges less, and food release is really nice. However, it also costed 450 dollars for me as oppose to the 95 that I payed for the Artifex. I don't use this knife as much as I do the Artifex, so I can't speak for edge retention yet.

Ultimately, I think that the Artifex isn't as bad as many people try to make it out to be, and it's not a terrible purchase. It's definitely an upgrade over the classic German knives that many cooks and chefs work with. However, there are definitely better options out there unless you're looking for the experience of thinning a knife down and learning about how to sharpen knives.
 
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