That which shall not be named

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This site has the greatest concentration of knowledge regarding kitchen knives and kitchen knife sharpening on the internet, which is why I look here for reviews and advice. I appreciated the few opinions that were offered. You tried some coarse stones, they aren't as good as others and they are overpriced. That was worth more to me than all the videos and the love-ins at other forums, not because I'm looking for bad reviews of the products, but because I trust the opinions of the people on this site as real experts who gained that expertise through research and trial-and-error, not self proclaimed experts in an echo room.

Honestly I didn't expect to get too many reviews because I didn't expect too many people here to patronize CKTG. I would consider the discussion so far to be a step forward compared to where things were two years ago. Maybe we can try again in a while... about never years from now sounds good to me.
 
People carp on about the great value of the Artifex, but for less money you can get a Sugimoto 210 which cuts great straight out of the box, is a piece of piss to sharpen and, most tellingly, doesn't have a grind/geometry that looks like it was set by a chimp.
 
Timthebeaver said:
People carp on about the great value of the Artifex, but for less money you can get a Sugimoto 210 which cuts great straight out of the box, is a piece of piss to sharpen and, most tellingly, doesn't have a grind/geometry that looks like it was set by a chimp.
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but the sujimoto isnt made from the aebl super duper steel.
 
My lay-understanding of AEB-L is that the ingredients don't sound remarkable, but the way that they combine with each other and are arranged (when the steel is properly HT'ed) is what makes the magic happen.
Carbon and rockwell can be deceiving, because AEB-L forms extremely hard, very fine, and very evenly dispersed carbides. These carbides are harder than any blade will ever measure on the RHC scale. As a side note this is also my understanding as to what made the original damascus / wootz steel so special: it could be relatively soft and very durable and strong, but was hundreds of years ahead of every other metal on the planet in terms of sharpness because of it's carbides / very unique grain structure which was created by forging and heat treat.

I just remembered that I shouldn't have even tried to explain this because THE Hoss himself has already done it better than I ever could: http://www.devinthomas.com/faq.cfm

You can give 2 bakers the identical cake-mix and one will create something moist and airy and perfect and the other will cast a cinder block.

My experience with 3 different AEB-L blades made by DT and one made by WillC is that the steel has an ability like none other to take a crazy fine, very polished edge (to the point where other steels would lose all their teeth) and still maintain a frightening level of bite and aggression. Overall edge retention is very good, but where it really shines is the amount of time that it can hold onto the first 100-95% sharpness.
It easily makes my list of top 3 kitchen knife steels (certainly the best stainless).

Many of the descriptions of the steel by Artifex owners sound like they aren't even talking about the same steel as my experienceS: "Gummy" feeling, problems with wire edge, problems with the edge running / not biting.

This has gone a bit OT , but I think that it all just goes to the point of the trustworthiness of CKTG in representing their own products accurately.
 
So If I fix my edge,

The Artifex should in theory perform better than my Tojiro DP?
 
CompE said:
I wrote "that which shall not be named" because any attempt to name the line of stones that I'm referring to or the place that sells them is replaced with ***** on this site. I can understand not allowing links to non-approved vendors, but sometimes this site's rules make it difficult to have serious discussions.
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I'm frustrated! Is there a way for someone to tell me what the unnameable stones are called? Seems like everyone else on this thread knows, and I really don't feel like poking around the unnameable website to find it.
 
Going to stick my toe in here WRT the artifex. I bought the knife for my gf; good profile imo (direct copy of the masamoto vg), but THICK behind the edge for the bulk of the knife. The ~1.5" towards the tip were usable and ground pretty thin, but the rest was something else. It did not cut as well as my old henckels pro-s and frankly, it reminded me of that time I used an old henckels meat cleaver to cut an onion.

Significantly better knives out there for another $20-25.
 
With my skill, I would never underpay for a knife that needs thinning and grinding. I'll happily pay the extra cash for a product that's done right, plus doesn't look like a total piece of ****.
 
Gravy Power said:
With my skill, I would never underpay for a knife that needs thinning and grinding. I'll happily pay the extra cash for a product that's done right, plus doesn't look like a total piece of ****.
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There's some old adage about getting what you pay for, or something.. Can't quite recall...
 
Culverin said:
Why not?
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Apologies is this comes across as harsh, but are you experienced at grinding knives? If the answer is no, you are not going to have the necessary skill to modify the artifex to a good standard. The geometry of the blade is incredibly poor - that is the whole grind, not just the edge bevels.
 
The Tojiro geometry is markedly superior (because it was made by someone who knew what they were doing) - and that's why it cuts better. It has f-all to do with steel. People getting hung up on steel type and believing steel hype is without doubt the cause of the biggest misinformation problems. Unfortunately people like things they can categorise when evaluating performance - numbers and letters, hence the obsession with steel types, Rockwell hardness etc.

The skill of the smith/maker is paramount. Unfortunately this cannot be easily categorised or placed on a scale. If a knife has crap geometry, even if it's made from black unobtainium megasteel, it will cut like crap. Period.
 
Timthebeaver said:
The Tojiro geometry is markedly superior (because it was made by someone who knew what they were doing) - and that's why it cuts better. It has f-all to do with steel. People getting hung up on steel type and believing steel hype is without doubt the cause of the biggest misinformation problems. Unfortunately people like things they can categorise when evaluating performance - numbers and letters, hence the obsession with steel types, Rockwell hardness etc.

The skill of the smith/maker is paramount. Unfortunately this cannot be easily categorised or placed on a scale. If a knife has crap geometry, even if it's made from black unobtainium megasteel, it will cut like crap. Period.
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:goodpost:

All good steel does is helps a good knifemaker make a better knife overall. A good bladesmith can make a knife that will cut properly and repeatably out of mild steel. The edge won't last, and so will need sharpened constantly...but when it cuts it will cut well. The hair splitting sharpness attainable with good steel (assuming its properly heat treated) is definitely an aid to cutting ability...but that's not what makes the knife cut, and many (if not most) people wouldn't even be able to feel the difference until the mild steel knife started to dull. That's where the quality steel and heat treat really come in. Carbide formation, refinement, and distribution play HUGE roles in making that sharp edge last in any steel with alloying agents...be it carbon or stainless. But all the knowledge of metallurgy in the world, with the ultimate blend of carbon, iron, and alloys...will not make a butter knife cut anything but butter.
 
Timthebeaver said:
Apologies is this comes across as harsh, but are you experienced at grinding knives? If the answer is no, you are not going to have the necessary skill to modify the artifex to a good standard. The geometry of the blade is incredibly poor - that is the whole grind, not just the edge bevels.
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Who actually makes the Artifex knife? The unnameable is quite obviously a dealer/entrepreneur/enthusiast, rather than a knife maker—he designs, brands, markets, sells the knives, but someone else manufactures [factory] them for him.

Have there been grind/performance issues with the other knife lines, like the Laser, Ultimatum, Addict, Fanatic or Kohetsu.

Just trying to understand knife manufacturing. Example, if I approached a reputable knife manufacturer with an idea for 'The DitmasPork Super Gyuto,' giving them a desired profile and specifications, wouldn't the manufacturer tweak my idea, and make modifications to improve my edge geometry and design based on their knife making expertise?
 
You know...... I was thinkin.......
For a forum that does not like so and so and what so and so sells, I sure do seem to see a ton of chat about it.
Any thoughts on whether trolls may be involved in some way shape or form?
An ongoing thread like this is bound to spark more interest in new players whether it is positive or not.
Just sayin.
Seems like advertising for that company is not hard to generate here.
Seeing as there are a fair number of new members coming in on what seems like a daily basis. Some of those might be frugal or just plain hard up on cash. I would think constantly talking about said company would peak some interest enough to check the site out and maybe steer someone that direction by the offerings they may come across while there.
Now I know that is not what most people are aiming for, but that is just what these long debate/bashfests are capable of doing.
When I joined I was curious and asked for a PM for some insight and after that it was over as I did not want to continue talking about things that obviously upset people in the viewing eye of everyone on the forum.
That being said I think (My opinion only) that if people ask about certain things that are better off left unspoken here, that someone take the reigns and maybe inform them privately so as not to encourage these situations.

Look at Charlie Sheen......... Bad publicity is still publicity.
 
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CompE said:
This site has the greatest concentration of knowledge regarding kitchen knives and kitchen knife sharpening on the internet, which is why I look here for reviews and advice. I appreciated the few opinions that were offered. You tried some coarse stones, they aren't as good as others and they are overpriced. That was worth more to me than all the videos and the love-ins at other forums, not because I'm looking for bad reviews of the products, but because I trust the opinions of the people on this site as real experts who gained that expertise through research and trial-and-error, not self proclaimed experts in an echo room.
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This is why I think this topic is important - I want this to continue to be the place you're describing, but it takes effort to point out the bull and keep things honest. When I see so many people bash a knife they've never used, based on biased reviews from people with an axe to grind, it bothers me. This place can be just as much a fan-boy echo chamber sometimes, when it comes to certain products.

And btw, does anyone remember this? http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/

Dave_Martell said:
... I've decided to only continue to sell the Arashiyama 6k version as this seems the more honest thing to do.

To be truthful I'm more than a little pissed off about being somewhat duped and thus duping my customers in return. I'm not upset about selling this stone labeled as 8k because I still feel it's a great stone that could easily be an 8k and those who bought the Takenoko version got a great stone. I'm upset with the fact that I sold one of each to some customers meaning that they bought two of the same stones from me and that's just not good.
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So by his own admission, Dave apparently doesn't mind "duping" his customers now? - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Takenoko-sharpening-stone-8000x-8k-p/tak8000.htm

This, combined with the self-serving censorship and hyperbolic negative reviews of anything Mark sells, is why I have lost almost all respect for him. I might get banned for this, but so be it - either way, I think people should know that it's not as cut and dry as Dave=good, Mark=evil. Dave is just the lesser of two evils.
 
You seem to have left out the good part where he tries to make good by offering a refund after admitting his mistake publicly.


spaceconvoy said:
And on that note....I want everyone to know that if you purchased both stones from us (JKS) then we will take back one of them for a full refund even if the stone has been used. Please contact me if this applies to you and we'll straighten things out.

Also, while I have your attention, please beware when stone shopping because there's a few vendors who sell both of these stones and one even states the Arashiyama is a 7k. Caveat Emptor!


*Special thanks to "spaceconvoy" for the tip and for all your research into this. I'm grateful that you brought this to my attention so that I don't have to take part in the shenanigans. .
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Yes, he did good in the past - past-Dave was great and still has my respect. You're missing the point. Today he continues to sell the stone as Takenoko 8000, even though he said selling it as Arashiyama was the honest thing to do. Apparently he doesn't mind now if people are tricked into buying two of the same stones.
 
spaceconvoy said:
This is why I think this topic is important - I want this to continue to be the place you're describing, but it takes effort to point out the bull and keep things honest. When I see so many people bash a knife they've never used, based on biased reviews from people with an axe to grind, it bothers me. This place can be just as much a fan-boy echo chamber sometimes, when it comes to certain products.

And btw, does anyone remember this? http://www.knifeforums.com/forums/showtopic.php?tid/850519/



So by his own admission, Dave apparently doesn't mind "duping" his customers now? - http://www.japaneseknifesharpeningstore.com/Takenoko-sharpening-stone-8000x-8k-p/tak8000.htm

This, combined with the self-serving censorship and hyperbolic negative reviews of anything Mark sells, is why I have lost almost all respect for him. I might get banned for this, but so be it - either way, I think people should know that it's not as cut and dry as Dave=good, Mark=evil. Dave is just the lesser of two evils.
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First, your comparison is stupid. You're cherry picking one thread as an example of one vendor's business practices and applying that to generalize one vendor's business practices as a whole. So, if, just as an example, Jon, Devin, Bill Burke, sell one bad knife, that makes all of them bad vendors?

Second of all, what's your point about bringing up a thread from the past? Self aggrandizement? Dave doesn't even sell the Arashiyama any more. He only sells the Takenoko. (And your response is pointless. Dave's post notes that they are both made by the same OEM. Arashiyama is not the maker. It's a rebranded stone as well. Many Japanese stones are rebranded. And, on top of that, maybe there's a reason why Dave isn't selling the Arashiyama.)

For someone who apparently likes bringing back old threads from the grave, you should maybe also look at how many threads deal with members' problems with Mark's customer service. It's not just Mark's products that people here do not like - many people have commented how poor his customer service is, including me. For someone who apparently cares about facts and not "biased reviews," you make illogical comparisons and analogies that are not factually supported beyond one example.
 
Way to completely miss the point as well. He does sell the Arashiyama, branded as Takenoko purposely to convince the uninformed that he's selling a unique stone. It's. the. same. stone.

I'm not generalizing his business practices at all. Where do I say anything like that? I'm giving one concrete reason why I personally don't trust Dave's opinion anymore
 
labor of love said:
the 1k that mark tried to claim was the same stone that maxim carries? i think in a video comparision it was decided that they cut much differently.
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I don't know the back story behind Maxim & him with regards to that stone (or the video comparison) - but yes, they look almost exactly alike.

I know the 'other website' offers the stone in 3 different levels of hardness - medium, hard, & extra hard - but the 'medium' is the default, and the one I own.

I feel the same about the stone as most of the reviewers on JNS, with the exception that mine dishes fairly fast and needs constant flattening. So maybe the one Maxim sells is one of the harder varieties. I actually like the softer feel of mine but I can tell that I am going to burn through it fairly quickly.

I appreciate that this thread is still open - even if it has gone way off topic from its original purpose. I've been lurking long enough to understand why there are the feelings there are here, but I think this website is great. It is a wealth of knowledge when it comes to knives and sharpening so I really appreciate it. I just wish we could fairly acknowledge and review these stones. Like I said before, I understand why people would not want to give them their business at all - but it is an entire range of stones that have almost zero unbiased reviews. All you have are youtube videos and CKTG forum posts.
 
spaceconvoy, it looks like dave was forthcoming and completely honest about the whole situation. im not sure why exactly you decided not to trust him, and it seems to me like youre on a witch hunt.
you claim to love this site because of the valueable information that can be found here, unfortunately all that youve decided to contribute is mudslinging and all around trolling.
 
jaybett said:
CCK became known, because a knife nut, out of Utah, went into an Asian market and bought one.
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Can you point me in the direction of who this user is? I'd like to ask them where. Because I'd like to buy one locally but all of the asian markets I've been to don't sell knives. I'm in SLC.
 
JDA_NC said:
. I just wish we could fairly acknowledge and review these stones. Like I said before, I understand why people would not want to give them their business at all - but it is an entire range of stones that have almost zero unbiased reviews. All you have are youtube videos and CKTG forum posts.
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get over it. this forum has its own vendors that carry stones, instead of trying to figure out whether or not marks stones are a rip off, you should really just find a better vendor with better stones. shouldnt be that hard.
 
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