Ummmm, if A2 is the "superior tool steel" starting point in the hyper expensive plane business, many of us knife people might be just a tad suspect about how much of an uber hi-tech advance Mr. Holtey's new super steel actually is. Just saying. In our world, A2 is considered by many to be the bargain option for impact resistant steel and is outperformed by a good many PM tool steels.
The Price of Certain Makers Knives
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Okay, i am a bit puzzled. How is S53 a superior TOOL steel? It has 14% cobalt, but only .21% carbon and is designed as a high impact structural steel for applications like aircraft landing gear. It is apparently known primarily for its strength and corrosion resistance so that it can enlace cadmium coated steel.
Eamon Burke
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I used to think that high-dollar customs were too expensive. Can't you get a great knife for a couple hundred? The rest is just hype, right?
Well, first off, no pair of knives is functionally worth $50,000. That has happened once. Most of Bob's knives are going for about $15k, and his are an exception because a lot of people ARE buying them because of the pricetag...it's a financial item, like a diamond studded watch.
Everyone else that isn't experiencing a strange economic/marketing phenomenon? Murray Carter, Devin Thomas, Michael Rader, Bill Burke...Those knives are 100% worth every penny. Every penny! They DO THINGS that are worth $2k. If you want a knife that is exactly the way you want it, tip to butt, stores the way you want it, performs the way you want it, looks the way you want it, maintains the way you want it, and finished with unrelenting care--completely worth the money.
If you are a pro cook that is going to be doing this forever, or a SERIOUS home cook who has a few hundred dollars discretionary income a month, going with a high end custom is a sensible decision, and a pragmatic one. Just because it is beautiful and makes you feel damned good to own doesn't mean that it is a decoration.
If you consider what a great relationship/interaction with your knife can do for a pro cook for getting your work done, feeling good about your job, working in an ergonomically correct manner, performing efficiently, reducing food waste/spoilage, creating status and showing that you care for your profession(which can land you a job...it did for me), and be a lifetime purchase that your children can inherit--a pricey custom from a talented maker will save and make you money in not a long time.
Well, first off, no pair of knives is functionally worth $50,000. That has happened once. Most of Bob's knives are going for about $15k, and his are an exception because a lot of people ARE buying them because of the pricetag...it's a financial item, like a diamond studded watch.
Everyone else that isn't experiencing a strange economic/marketing phenomenon? Murray Carter, Devin Thomas, Michael Rader, Bill Burke...Those knives are 100% worth every penny. Every penny! They DO THINGS that are worth $2k. If you want a knife that is exactly the way you want it, tip to butt, stores the way you want it, performs the way you want it, looks the way you want it, maintains the way you want it, and finished with unrelenting care--completely worth the money.
If you are a pro cook that is going to be doing this forever, or a SERIOUS home cook who has a few hundred dollars discretionary income a month, going with a high end custom is a sensible decision, and a pragmatic one. Just because it is beautiful and makes you feel damned good to own doesn't mean that it is a decoration.
If you consider what a great relationship/interaction with your knife can do for a pro cook for getting your work done, feeling good about your job, working in an ergonomically correct manner, performing efficiently, reducing food waste/spoilage, creating status and showing that you care for your profession(which can land you a job...it did for me), and be a lifetime purchase that your children can inherit--a pricey custom from a talented maker will save and make you money in not a long time.
Johnny.B.Good
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Nice post Eamon.
Makes sense to me.
Makes sense to me.
Salty dog
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Not to be obtuse but how many of the aforementioned knives have you tried out?
From a carpentry perspective/context A2 is a superior tool steel to most of the plane blades available, you have *** plane blades which are harder but on balance they are considerably more delicate (I've used them for many hours so can attest to this)so in the context I was quoting it is a good choice. When it comes to steel for a plane blade no one will know their stuff better than Mr Holtey, he would know all options and chose what he considered to be the best current material. He is a world leading expert on the subject and a skilled engineer. He has the standard hardness of the steel he uses upped from HRC54 to HRC64 so I guess he's looking to improve on the qualities of the given material for his application.
******* why be so pedantic go ask Mr Holtey I'm sure he'll give you an answer, geez I was just using as an analogy to my expensive knife query which has been well answered and provided some interesting responses. Cutting wood is somewhat different to cutting a tomato, for example some revered knife makers use 01 steel (I'm sure a good choice) whereas for a plane blade A2 is in normal circumstances a better choice.
I've various Japanese chisels made from different steels, the A2 steel chisels I have in real world applications for me (as someone who used to make a living out of using tools) proved more durable and easier to work with, thus a better choice, I can sharpen an A2 chisel or plane blade so it will shave hair and pass any of the "sharpness" tests most knife people use, its easy to sharpen and holds an edge very well, doesn't crumble and even when cutting very dense and hard knotty woods doesn't chip (partly to do with the angle of the working/secondary bevel - higher for tougher wood).
******* why be so pedantic go ask Mr Holtey I'm sure he'll give you an answer, geez I was just using as an analogy to my expensive knife query which has been well answered and provided some interesting responses. Cutting wood is somewhat different to cutting a tomato, for example some revered knife makers use 01 steel (I'm sure a good choice) whereas for a plane blade A2 is in normal circumstances a better choice.
I've various Japanese chisels made from different steels, the A2 steel chisels I have in real world applications for me (as someone who used to make a living out of using tools) proved more durable and easier to work with, thus a better choice, I can sharpen an A2 chisel or plane blade so it will shave hair and pass any of the "sharpness" tests most knife people use, its easy to sharpen and holds an edge very well, doesn't crumble and even when cutting very dense and hard knotty woods doesn't chip (partly to do with the angle of the working/secondary bevel - higher for tougher wood).
DeepCSweede
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"pedantic" - THAT is my new word for the day. No need to watch O'Reilly tonight.
I don't know what I love more about this thread JM Forge's pedanticness or Salty being Mr. Technicality on Eamon
I don't know what I love more about this thread JM Forge's pedanticness or Salty being Mr. Technicality on Eamon
DeepCSweede
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You're laying it on pretty thick and deep, dude. A TKC ($250) is still 95% as good as a custom from anyone UNLESS edge retention or appearance is your main criterion for quality or your main knife is some unusual design.
I'm not sure if you're calling me out but you don't have to own or even use a knife from all the American custom makers to get a very accurate idea of what a knife is capable of doing.
And even if you did, knifemakers might still be tweaking their designs so you really don't know what you have, necessarily.
Well, if it is "pedantic" to wonder why a particular brand of tools can sell for up to 7000 pounds for a single example when they appear to be, at least in part, CNC machined(which the maker appears to tout as a superior way of doing things compared to how other makers do it) and offered with blades made either from a fairly pedestrian tool steel or an alloy not designed for cutting tools, then color me guilty. :biggrin: With that said, people are apparently willing to pay that kind of money for them so that is what the tools are worth, even to the point of paying 300 pounds extra for a decorative element made from a sliver of some unobtanium Asian hardwood.. The same argument could be made for the knives that appear to be puzzling the OP. The planes are worth up to 7000 pounds because he believes that they are. Other people feel the same way about custom knives.
The glib answer is supply and demand. While it is a easy answer, I think it is difficult for a maker to create demand for their product. A few years ago, it would have been unthinkable to sell a knife to the general public for more then a $100-$150.
Cook's Illustrated did one of their periodic knife reviews, but in one of them they had a small blurb about new knife from a maker named Bob Kramer. While hesitant about the cost of the knife, they said, it was the sharpest knife they had seen in their test kitchen. Say what you will about Cook's Illustrated, but when a magazine with a Consumer Reports like reputation, makes that kind of statement, people notice.
A limited supply and high demand, have led to some fantastic prices being paid for a Kramer knife.
What Kramer knives have done is reset, what the general public thinks is a fair price for a high end knife. Sur la Table is selling knives now in the $300-$400 range. I find it interesting that Sur la Table, feels that it can raise the price of their Zwilling Kramers. If the general public is now willing to spend $400 for a knife, then its not far jump to purchase a knife custom knife, which is good news to the small knife makers.
The fly in the ointment comes, when we ask is a knife worth the the price? The craftsmanship and materials in a Kramer, Burke, Carter, Radar, Thomas, justifies knives justifies a high price. Do their $2000 knives, cut better then a $1000 knife or even a $500 one? Maybe, maybe not. Products that are pushing design boundaries, a 2-3 percent increase can be huge.
A job or task, can be a deciding factor in value of a knife. Does the average carpenter need a $10,000 plane? No, but a violin maker, might find the extra 5 percent of control, invaluable. The same would hold true with a knife.
Jay
Cook's Illustrated did one of their periodic knife reviews, but in one of them they had a small blurb about new knife from a maker named Bob Kramer. While hesitant about the cost of the knife, they said, it was the sharpest knife they had seen in their test kitchen. Say what you will about Cook's Illustrated, but when a magazine with a Consumer Reports like reputation, makes that kind of statement, people notice.
A limited supply and high demand, have led to some fantastic prices being paid for a Kramer knife.
What Kramer knives have done is reset, what the general public thinks is a fair price for a high end knife. Sur la Table is selling knives now in the $300-$400 range. I find it interesting that Sur la Table, feels that it can raise the price of their Zwilling Kramers. If the general public is now willing to spend $400 for a knife, then its not far jump to purchase a knife custom knife, which is good news to the small knife makers.
The fly in the ointment comes, when we ask is a knife worth the the price? The craftsmanship and materials in a Kramer, Burke, Carter, Radar, Thomas, justifies knives justifies a high price. Do their $2000 knives, cut better then a $1000 knife or even a $500 one? Maybe, maybe not. Products that are pushing design boundaries, a 2-3 percent increase can be huge.
A job or task, can be a deciding factor in value of a knife. Does the average carpenter need a $10,000 plane? No, but a violin maker, might find the extra 5 percent of control, invaluable. The same would hold true with a knife.
Jay
Getting a great performing full-custom knife means really knowing what you want with respect to profile, grind, etc., and having a maker who can not only hit all those marks, but who also is expert at getting the most out of the selected steel. I suspect in many instances customs are not as great performers as some of the better 'production' (or well-made Japanese knives) knives because either the buyer, maker or both can't get one or two of the aspects quite right. Let's face it, most of us have not been able to work with several dozen 240 gyutos in order to really nail down all the parameters that make up their perfect blade, and many of the makers have not produced enough (and had enough feedback from experieced knife users) to truly know what makes a makes a blade as good as it can get. Based on write-ups from several pros on this and other forums, Devin Thomas and Bill Burke seem to be at the highest level, while several others are working on small refinements that are helping to close the gap and still even more are really just starting to understand. But for the most part, a full custom seems to generally be more about looks then obtaining a blade that eeks out the last 2% of cutting and edge retention potential.
On a personal note, the 'real' DT 240 gyuto I picked up a couple months ago performs a bit better then the ITK gyuto I bought last year. There are some definite advantages to getting a blade made by a maker who really knows his stuff backwards and forwards. But a DT 240 gyuto is not a $2k knife, unless you get it in damascus. And at that point you have more then doubled the priced yet not received any improvement in performance. No, you ponied up the extra $ because a DT damascus knife is a work of art that performs really, really well. I'll admit I'm skeptical that a $2k knife from one of the best custom makers really performs better then one of their $700-$1,000 knives; if I desire the $2k knife it is likely because of the looks.
On a personal note, the 'real' DT 240 gyuto I picked up a couple months ago performs a bit better then the ITK gyuto I bought last year. There are some definite advantages to getting a blade made by a maker who really knows his stuff backwards and forwards. But a DT 240 gyuto is not a $2k knife, unless you get it in damascus. And at that point you have more then doubled the priced yet not received any improvement in performance. No, you ponied up the extra $ because a DT damascus knife is a work of art that performs really, really well. I'll admit I'm skeptical that a $2k knife from one of the best custom makers really performs better then one of their $700-$1,000 knives; if I desire the $2k knife it is likely because of the looks.
Okay, i will admit this. There are people out there who would probably like to have a block full of Kramers sitting next to their La Cornue range that rarely gets used for anything other than as a place to put take out containers. My younger brothers refers to that as the "d-bag market" and as much as some of us might look down on those people, they are potential customers and I, for one, would not turn down their money.:doublethumbsup:
Salty dog
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STFU,, it was directed at Eamaom. You're getting sensitive.
Damascus if kinda funny. It obviously involves a LOT more labor, but even if you look at the cost of the raw materials, you see some significantly increased costs. A big stack of 1084 and 15N20 pieces for one large billet can cost up to $50. That is before you start adding in propane at $5 a gallon or more, grinding belts, weld in materials, etc. By the time that you are done, you may have as much or more invested just in raw materials as you would if you used one of the super PM steels.
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Thanks, Eamon, for articulating how I can justify some of the knives I have.
Rick
Rick
I understand why damascus costs what it costs. But as a knife consumer, the decision to go with it is mainly based on appearance and not performance. So the extra $ is aesthetics, and we make a conscious decision to pay for that element (add in nice-looking wood handles here as well). I've happily payed for two damascus knives so far, and am on lists for a couple more. For me, it's about getting a piece of highly-functional art. I can't even say it's showing off (like Salty says), as none of my family or friends knows or cares about kitchen knives. I think when people see one of them, they assume it's one of those super-expensive (i.e., $150) Shuns :biggrin:
Absolutely. I readily admit that the whole "damascus cutting effect' is pretty much urban legend, especially the way the stuff is made today by combining steels that are very similar but for slight difference on one or two alloying elements. It's all about how it looks as the performance of the steel will be, at best, the sum of its component steels and at worst, not as good if you mess up.
Isn't that the truth! For all the money I have spent, no one cares but me.
I'm not sure if you can really hear yourself talking, so I'll be more blunt this time. You are exactly the same as the knife buyers that you profess to not understand.
You think Holtey is the coolest guy on the planet and that everyone who knows anything about planes should be able to see that his planes are totally worth the price tag. Anyone who doesn't think they are worth it just doesn't know enough about planes and what goes into their construction.
The person who buys super-expensive custom knives also thinks that <insert knifemaker here> is the coolest guy on the planet and that everyone who knows anything about <insert type of knife here> should be able to see that his knives are totally worth the price tag. Anyone who doesn't think they are worth it just doesn't know enough about knives and what goes into their construction.
Okay, I have another question. The OP says that a Holtey plane can take up to 600 hours of work. The Holtey website says that they can take up to 200. Let's split the difference and say 400. Assuming a 40 hour work week, that means he can make 10 per year, yet he has different 13 models listed. Whats up with that? How can his planes be so popular? Hoe many people can possibly own a set of them? The implication is that he makes them all himself.........well, except for the uber-secret heat treatment of his super steel blades. He admits that he outsources that.:biggrin:
SpikeC
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I have resisted the urge to point this very thing out. The Holtey planes are not the be all end all of wood working tools. Low production is responsible for high prices. There are other hand planes that perform just as well.
Eamon Burke
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Oh! I missed two pages!
All but the Kramer. Too rich for my blood, and nobody wants to share! I've had the fortune of handling knives from pretty much everyone, sharpening most of them, and putting many through the paces at work.
I stand behind my comments. It is totally worth it to me, and I am frugal as well as poor. Consider that at my day job, I make less money than these knives cost in a month.
I have gotten a job before because of my knives.
Having a nice knife that you love creates a sense of care that inspires you to do better in other aspects of your job. It's like putting on a really nice, new pair of shoes--your other clothes better be up to par or you'll feel funny and head back to the closet and dress it up a little.
I think a chef that makes $1500 a month, if it is his chosen lifelong profession, has every good reason to spend $3k on knives. For the same reason that landscapers spend 4 times that on equipment, or smart small time actors hire a good agent. It provides tangible returns that can make your whole life better, if you are spending hours out of every day with it.
The key here is made to specifications. If you find your dream knife on a shelf somewhere, more power to you. But it's been my experience that everyone has wants/needs that aren't going to match up with anyone else's. This is the meaning of compromise.
All but the Kramer. Too rich for my blood, and nobody wants to share! I've had the fortune of handling knives from pretty much everyone, sharpening most of them, and putting many through the paces at work.
I stand behind my comments. It is totally worth it to me, and I am frugal as well as poor. Consider that at my day job, I make less money than these knives cost in a month.
I have gotten a job before because of my knives.
Having a nice knife that you love creates a sense of care that inspires you to do better in other aspects of your job. It's like putting on a really nice, new pair of shoes--your other clothes better be up to par or you'll feel funny and head back to the closet and dress it up a little.
I think a chef that makes $1500 a month, if it is his chosen lifelong profession, has every good reason to spend $3k on knives. For the same reason that landscapers spend 4 times that on equipment, or smart small time actors hire a good agent. It provides tangible returns that can make your whole life better, if you are spending hours out of every day with it.
The key here is made to specifications. If you find your dream knife on a shelf somewhere, more power to you. But it's been my experience that everyone has wants/needs that aren't going to match up with anyone else's. This is the meaning of compromise.
JohnnyChance
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Fin.
