The Price of Certain Makers Knives

Japanese Knives - by Tokushu Knife
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^^^ The above was pretty much what I wanted to know, now not wanting to "resurrect" the Holtey thing lol ( I can't take anymore pedanticness :wink:) but it still has me wondering about what was the essence of what I was originally asking and maybe in hindsight not getting across very well.

I like to buy the best I can afford and until coming to this site knew little about the world of Kitchen Knives or Knives for that matter. I've now got 3 nice knives, well they seem to be to me, my latest purchase from Shinichi Watanabe arrived today - lovely knife very sharp and Shinichi is a fantastic person too. I'm now looking at future purchases and still have the question as to what really are you paying for when you pay say 1,2 or $3k is the money tied up in the materials and additional labour and finishing or are you paying for the reputation/name?

I've been comparing Devin Thomas, Dave Martell, Will Catchside etc.. etc... with others such as Heiji and at the upper end of the price bracket (without the obvious Bob Kramer) Nenohi knives which are $1k plus. Now I'd consider buying these but why so expensive?? (which was my original question). After inspecting the Watanabe knife I can't see why (other than a standard handle) as steel is top quality, its as sharp as anyone could need it looks great and works as I would wish it to! Fit and finish is near perfect - although I'm coming to the conclusion now with my limited experience that I really like a knife with a few "imperfections" as this for me anyway signifies hand made (probably silly) although not imperfections that could effect performance.

Thus once the material costs and labour are included are the knives produced by Nenohi any more expensive to make than say a Watanabe professional or Devin Thomas knife? I guess taking Salty Dogs last comment into account I want the best functional "tool" I can afford but also something that I can feel and enjoy using. I'm also starting to find my "taste" when it comes to kitchen knives which I guess must add to the appeal on a personal level too.
 
When you're paying for the 'reputation' of a maker there is generally a reason. For DT, Martell, Will, Marko, etc. you are paying for the quality. Now does that mean they are putting more time into each knife? Not necessarily. It just means they are more skilled than other makers, which is why their knives are worth more money.

It's not like there is a fixed price for labor across the knife making market. Some makers make more per hour, some less. It stands to reason that makers with long wait times can increase their prices because people want their knives. If you're taking Nenohi for an example not many makers in the U.S. can make single bevels, less can make them well.
 
(I'm sure everyone already knows this but to state the obvious.) Well standard supply and demand is that you increase/decrease the price until you either can't afford to do it any cheaper, or people stop buying your product. If you've got a big reputation, then your prices will go up and if you've got no reputation then your prices will have to go down until people start reporting about the quality of your product.

The twist in this story is that once you get to a certain price bracket, you're now expensive enough for your product to be worth looking at for a large section of the market (the same one that BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, etc. market to) but this segment of the market doesn't really care about the quality as much as they care about the prestige of the item.
 
As far as the custom makers go, the newer guys are usually in the sub $1k range. Dave and Marko for example have gyutos just under $500. After the cost of materials, any outsourced work (heat treat, blank cutting, etc), overhead (shop space rental, power tools, hand tools, belts, bits, stones, etc), there really isn't that much left for labor. Guys with more experience and reputation can increase their cost because even at the increased cost there is a line of people waiting for knives. So why not charge what makes a comfortable living, or at least one that affords you to create at a comfortable pace?
 
So I have to ask this because I have no idea - or just a vague one. I think I heard at one point that a japanese blacksmith could make one knife a day on average. If that's the case with western blacksmiths howcome they "don't earn" anything. If materials are half - then $500 would give a $250 paycheck.
 
I may be wrong here, but my impression is that Japanese bladesmiths mostly made blades and not the other parts. Also, the expectations for the fit and finish and the quality of materials other than the blade steel are higher for a custom knife. With that said, some knife makers can grind out twenty or moe simple bushcraft blades and have them ready for heat treat in one day, but not many.
Peco said:
So I have to ask this because I have no idea - or just a vague one. I think I heard at one point that a japanese blacksmith could make one knife a day on average. If that's the case with western blacksmiths howcome they "don't earn" anything. If materials are half - then $500 would give a $250 paycheck.
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Wel I'm pretty sure that western makers don't work on one knife at a time. So grinding, heat treat etc. would be bulk I guess. Then what's left is the handles ... which should be kind of the same process or?
 
******* said:
...the expectations for the fit and finish and the quality of materials other than the blade steel are higher for a custom knife...
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These expectations are self-imposed. I don't think it's so much "quality" of materials but fanciness of them. I would guess it's more of a cultural difference. Japanese knifemakers generally emphasize function. I would guess they can make something with great fit and finish but they don't care about that as long as it works great. I would also guess that their opinion on what is pretty is far different than what you see on a lot of American pieces. What's prettier, an intricate but busy-looking burl or a clean but plainer-looking wood?

The other thing is I get the impression that a lot of Japanese makers make excellent kitchen knives all day and start out as apprentices to someone else that makes excellent kitchen knives all day, everyday from the time they are able to swing a hammer. Most American knifemakers start out piddling in their garages a bit here and there and don't go pro until a lot later and don't make kitchen knives until only recently.
 
Peco said:
So I have to ask this because I have no idea - or just a vague one. I think I heard at one point that a japanese blacksmith could make one knife a day on average. If that's the case with western blacksmiths howcome they "don't earn" anything. If materials are half - then $500 would give a $250 paycheck.
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5 knives/ week x 49 weeks (2 weeks vaca and one for sick?) = $61,250. That is probably best case, assuming none have issues and need to be remade.

Now subtract out health insurance ($350/ mo average, could be quite a bit more for family plan), $ for equipment and rent/ mortgage on the shop space (could easily exceed $1,000/ mo), and that sure does not seem to net that great of an income unless you live in an area with a very low cost of living.
 
Making knives is no different to any other business. A target hourly rate is calculated from overheads
Rent, rates, electric, coke, propane, welding gas, consumables, vehicle, office, advertising, insurances etc etc etc.
To this you add a wage for yourself.
Each job is then priced on a prediction of the hours involved, plus materials and any subcontracted services involved. If the market/or customer will take it, you are in business, if not, think again. My biggest expenses most to least.
Workshop time - as this includes all the above expenses, including consumables like abrasives and propane.
Handle materials
Steel
For me doing something more at the bespoke end, the steel is probably no more than 1/20th of the cost of the job, as bespoke work eats up hours, which eats up money in the form of all of the above.
 
WildBoar said:
5 knives/ week x 49 weeks (2 weeks vaca and one for sick?) = $61,250. That is probably best case, assuming none have issues and need to be remade.

Now subtract out health insurance ($350/ mo average, could be quite a bit more for family plan), $ for equipment and rent/ mortgage on the shop space (could easily exceed $1,000/ mo), and that sure does not seem to net that great of an income unless you live in an area with a very low cost of living.
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Compared to what many others earn that seems pretty good. Add another $100 per knife and it looks even better :D Health insurance etc. well what can I say, that is the same for the guy working at McD for $5 an hour. Concidering your tax rate I think it's good - we pay 50%, a liter (not a gallon) of gasoline is about $2.5 at the moment, day care is $500 or more - I could go on. Still many here earns less than the number you just calculated for me. So to be honest I can't see why one would "complain" doing what they like and earn "good" money on it.
 
Sorry, but netting <$45k isn't 'good money' in a heck of a lot of areas, especially around cities. I'd be willing to bet most on this board who earn in that range would admit it is not that good of a living, especially if they have a family -- unless the spouse has a better income.
 
WildBoar said:
Sorry, but netting <$45k isn't 'good money' in a heck of a lot of areas, especially around cities. I'd be willing to bet most on this board who earn in that range would admit it is not that good of a living, especially if they have a family -- unless the spouse has a better income.
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My bad then .... I just compared with other "jobs" around and it seemed like that number were better ...
 
This thread made me to take a look at my costs. So I thought of sharing it.

It takes me about 15 hours to make a 240 knife. (With a saya, it will be 17-18 hours).

I do all of the following processes myself
-cutting blanks and profiling
-heat treating
-grinding
-tuning edge/bevel on water stones
-hand-rubbed finish
-handle/saya work

I do about 30% of all work by hand, not very efficient approach, I agree, but it is what it is at a present time.

Shop rent, utilities and insurance is about $1000/month
Liquid nitrogen - $120 every two months.
Tool addition and replacements normally $50-100/months, but last month I had to replace a buffer and VDF drive at cost of $700

I use about $25 worth of belts and abrasives per a knife
steel $7-20/ knife
wood - $10 - 35/knife
horn, N/S spacer - /$5-20/ knife

My capacity is 3 knives per week at the present time.

Say, I gross $1350/week making 3 x 240mm knives with premium wood handles (no sayas, to simplify calculations)

My cost per week to make these 3 knives
- $250 rent w/utilities and insurance
- tools, abrasives, LN use -$115
-handle materials (wood, horn, N/S) - $125
-PayPal fees on payments (4%) - $54
-shipping to customer (included in price) $45

On $1350 revenue, I make $761 pre-tax income, for 45 hours of labor. That will probably put me in 19% tax bracket, so my net taking would be $615 per week, or about $14/Hr.

I didn't factor a return on investment in tools I purchased (and continue purchasing). If I do, my hourly rate would put me on the level of what some of you guys make in a pro kitchen, about $10/hr (my approximate cost of tools is close to 7-10K).

Kind of an interesting exercise for myself.

M
 
I wonder if anybody makes 2 or more knifes a day on awerage .... $90K + ..... hmmm, maybe I should go into this field lol
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
This thread made me to take a look at my costs. So I thought of sharing it.

It takes me about 15 hours to make a 240 knife. (With a saya, it will be 17-18 hours).

I do all of the following processes myself
-cutting blanks and profiling
-heat treating
-grinding
-tuning edge/bevel on water stones
-hand-rubbed finish
-handle/saya work

I do about 30% of all work by hand, not very efficient approach, I agree, but it is what it is at a present time.

Shop rent, utilities and insurance is about $1000/month
Liquid nitrogen - $120 every two months.
Tool replacements normally $50-100/months, but last month I had to replace a buffer and VDF drive at cost of $700

I use about $25 worth of belts and abrasives per a knife
steel $7-20/ knife
wood - $10 - 35/knife
horn - /$5-20

My capacity is 3 knives per week at the present time.

Say, I gross $1350/week making 3 x 240mm knives with premium wood handles

My cost per week
- $250 rent w/utilities
- tools, abrasives, LN use -$115
-handle materials (wood, horn, N/S) - $125
-PayPal fees (4%) - $54
-shipping to customer (included in price) $45

On $1350 revenue, I make $761 pre-tax income, for 45 hours of labor. That will probably put me in 19% tax bracket, so my net taking would be $615 per week, or about $14/Hr.

I didn't factor a return on investment in tools I purchased (and continue purchasing). If I do, I would have made even less.

Kind of an interesting exercise for myself.

M
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Well M, you have been in the experimenting stage for quite a while. Now that you are all set I would imagine that your speed hopefully will progress a lot = more $$$ earned, faster turn around etc. You will hit the $45K mark which for me is not bad at all. Heck, many people here don't even earn that before they have to pay 50% in tax = 22.5K left.
 
I really do not think you can compare incomes between two different countries like that. Where my wife's parents and brother live, $15k/ yr is considered very good. Here in the Washington DC-area, it's hard for a family to exist on less then ~$75k -- and for that money you will be a good distance out from the city, or living in a very poor part of it. $2,500/ month will get you a run-down townhouse or a 2 BR condo somewhere outside the city -- so housing alone will eat up $30k/ yr. Sure, a single guy who can live in one room can exist for a bit less, but add in a fmaily and that really changes things.
 
Interesting Marko.

I don't know what the answer is...if you work faster, quality may suffer, if you charge more, you could lose customers. I suppose you will get faster in time as you become more practiced and efficient (and maybe with better/more expensive equipment), and that as your reputation grows you will be able to increase your prices. I hope you have a good accountant (or know what you're doing yourself) that can help you maximize your income tax deductions.
 
I have been thinking of making knives for a living. This thread has pretty much brought me to what I have thought about the profession so far. What hasn't been said yet is the time away for promotion of your work, either. There is time taken off for selling at craft fairs, ect.. But compared to opening a restaurant there seems to be a lower start up cost. I see the hardest part with this profession, along with going into business for your self is the promotion of said business.
 
WildBoar said:
I really do not think you can compare incomes between two different countries like that. Where my wife's parents and brother live, $15k/ yr is considered very good. Here in the Washington DC-area, it's hard for a family to exist on less then ~$75k -- and for that money you will be a good distance out from the city, or living in a very poor part of it. $2,500/ month will get you a run-down townhouse or a 2 BR condo somewhere outside the city -- so housing alone will eat up $30k/ yr. Sure, a single guy who can live in one room can exist for a bit less, but add in a fmaily and that really changes things.
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Well I think I can compare. I got half of my family in the States so I know a little about it. If I buy a car I pay 180% in tax on top og what the company sells it for. So a $20K car in the US would easily cost approx 40-50K here and then I even have manual shift. Gasoline you get a galon where I get a liter for the same price. Housing is rediculous here, same with day care, insurance etc. I have 2 kids to pay for and my wife earns what´s average. My salery sucks - I just started as an apprentice at the age of 43 and still I manage to get by without sacrificing anything. I can buy knifes, I have a car, my children got clothes on their body etc. So to be honest - saying that 45K net is not a big deal - well in my world it's pretty darn good - especially if it's an income from 1 person only.
 
depends what the cost of living is...

if one lived in new york city 45K is basically poverty.

not bad to you and not bad to someone else always depends on standard of living.

likewise 22.5K could be upper middle class or rich in some places.

why bother to debate what money is worth like this? i dont see what you are going to learn... if you want to go into business making knives and think you can make more money then you currently are then you can do it.

bill burke himself talked about working another job because he had to provide for unexpected medical bills.

anyway this is all seems off topic in this thread.

btw peco average cook makes around 22.5k in my area before taxes. most need welfare to support their families.
 
dough said:
btw peco average cook makes around 22.5k in my area before taxes. most need welfare to support their families.
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Man that sucks, sorry to hear that. That said, now $45K sounds even better - guess I got a point.
 
I agree with Markos numbers. Thats why I still have a full time job on top of knife making. A lot of good points have been made. Reputation, experience, materials, overhead, and yes even supply and demand all go towards the price. Will you always have a better quality instrument going custom? Some will say yes, some will say not necessarily, even no. For those who have gone the custom route, and continue to do so, they hopefully get what they want, taylored to them, using unique materials so at the end of the day, they have a top performing, one of a kind knife. Others will say a $150 240 mm knife of choice will cut as good as a custom damascus $1200 to $2000 knife, will for most purposes be right. The knife may not be as comfortable, or use the same quality materials, or even be as refined, but will still do the job. Why pay more?
Why do people want a Denali, Cadillac, Lexus, BMW, Mercedes, when a Ford Escort, or Prius will do the same job? It will still get them to WalMart, still has 4 wheels and air conditioning. I for one beleive customer service, warrenty, top notch materials, and the care taken to do it by hand goes a long way to offset the viewed cost of a given knifemakers product.
 
Ive always wondered how the full time knife makers got by. It takes alot more time then most would think to make a high end knife. Most makers who don't have a big following actually mass produce cheaper 100-200$ knives with machine finishes and cord wrap handles or simple g10 handles and a quick kydex sheath. They can mass produce these easier then say something needing hand sanding and a mirror finish. Also materials would be cheaper then ironwood or ivory or other nicer materials. Now Im sure these knives are still pretty nice and perform very well but its not the same as someone who spent 30-40 hrs on a really nice chef's knife that is close to a piece of art with very nice materials.
 
Peco said:
Man that sucks, sorry to hear that. That said, now $45K sounds even better - guess I got a point.
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you may have a point but just because you think making some amount of money for your profession is good or bad doesnt make it good nor bad. this is not about a product anymore nor even really a profession but only opinion. you have certainly made yours loud and clear.
 
dough said:
you may have a point but just because you think making some amount of money for your profession is good or bad doesnt make it good nor bad. this is not about a product anymore nor even really a profession but only opinion. you have certainly made yours loud and clear.
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First of all I wanna say that I respect the knifemakers and all the work they put into their projects. My point has nothing to do with the time spent on a piece or how much each make ... if it's a $1000 net per knife fine by me - we all wanna get paid right ;) I personally think the $45K sounded like a reasonable - if not good - pay - doing what you like to do. I will redraw from this thread because we all have different opinions about this issue and I'll bet we never agree anyways. Roger/over ...
 
Wow some great responses, very interesting particularly from the makers themselves! I used to be a carpenter and enjoyed the more prestigious work so to a degree can relate to some of the things already mentioned. I guess its a balance as I had to give up what I loved doing (and getting paid for it) as I needed to earn more money which still bothers me (money good job stressful/boring). Anyway some of the answers have given me a greater appreciation of what some of you guys put into something that you obviously have a great passion for. I have always preferred "functional beauty" over a museum piece but I guess people have different tastes, I love the patina for example that builds up on my planes and tools as it tells a story etc... I set out to buy some nice knives and that was all but I guess I'll go the same route I've gone with all my other "tools".

One thing I've taken from this thread is that there are some great "bargains" out there - knives that represent excellent value when all factors are considered. Not being Partisan but it also surprises me how few makers there are in the UK considering the wonderful heritage we had here for tools etc...
 
Peco said:
Man that sucks, sorry to hear that. That said, now $45K sounds even better - guess I got a point.
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You are comparing McD jobs and entry level line cooks to that of a skilled artisan/craftsman making luxury items. And just because the cooks are underpaid doesn't mean the salary $45k is acceptable.

I believe there are less than 10 knife makers in the US who's only job is knife making and are their families primary source of income. And I am including all US knife makers, not just those who make kitchen knives. So if it were that profitable, you would see more full time knife makers.
 
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