Thinking of a copper pan - need some help

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sharpmaker said:
If you're looking to replace that sorta-kinda-not-really-nonstick-anymore ceramic pan, and want copper, you should look at Anolon Nouvelle Copper which has copper and aluminum AND anodized aluminum and Teflon for super performance.
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Thanks. I have so for only briefly checked it out, but I am a bit skeptic. The bottom of the pan is composed of sandwich of 0.5mm stell, 2mm aluminum, 0.5mm copper, 2mm aluminum. In other word - it is aluminum pan with little copper added. Of course - the copper does not aid heat conductivity of the pan, but it may slightly improve the heat distribution across the surface of the pan. But in total I do not think this pan would fare considerably better than our aging greenpan in terms of heat conductivity.

Currently I am actually trying to persuade my wife that a copper pan would be a good idea :)
 
I received a stainless-interior 5.25 qt Matfer-Bourgeat saute pan today, and I thought people might be interested in what the interior looks like:



The fit and finish on this is way better than on any Mauviel pan I've owned or used or seen. The chamfers on the rolled edge are perfect, and there are no rough spots anywhere. Can't wait to use it tomorrow.
 
I am sorry to be late to the party. I have a few comments for you to consider. From my experience with copper pans. i have Mauviel, DeBuyer, and Falk in copper. As it was pointed out before, Dehillerin in Paris is wonderful to purchase copper and they are very responsive via email if you write them, their website is user friendly and in a couple of languages and they ship anywhere but the weight makes it too expensive unless you purchase several pieces at the same time. I have heard also that they make the Mauviel lines but cannot confirm. For either the Dehillerin or Mauviel versions you should know that the 1.5 mm is not considered cookware and instead is considered serveware for presentation purposes. Only the thick one is considered. The literature on thickness is a bit misleading in the sense that although copper transmits heat well and fast, the thickness is associated with the amount of energy stored and transfered (there is a great article in egullet about pans, shapes, and materials, I will see if I can dig it out and post it. I have both thickness and have cooked with both and the difference is notable when the thick ones are used, but I did not know that when I purchased the first few and was trying to save money thinking that copper would compensate for the thinness. In my opinion it does not and therefore coincide with the denomination of cookware only for 2.5 mm from Dehillerin. mauviel has several lines that is a bit confusing, the 150 and heritage are serveware (although obviously you can cook with them as well) and 250 is cookware. The letter at the end corresponda to the meal for the handles, with c for cast iron (my choice for its beautiful traditional look), and other choices in bronze or stainless steel.
All my pans are stainless steel lined while my family has tin lined from old Mauviel and a few italian makers, and Dehillerin with close friends. I personally would not buy the tin lined because of maintenance and heating requirements to protect the tin layer impose extra work that I prefer not to do, and in addition it is necessary to retin the pan once in a while depending on use. I love the stainless steel lined pans. Better cooks than I am swear by the tin lined, for me it is convenience that drives me to stainless steel lined. It is also a much newer and recent technology that was invented actually by Falk. Of all these brands, I like Falk the best hands down, rounded lips in the pans, beautiful brushed copper that makes maintenance easier, brushed steel that helps with the food cooking (I do not understand why but it is better than the polished steel from Mauviel). Falk USA dropped their distributor a couple of years ago and opened their own distribution and they are much, much easier and responsive to deal with than before. With any choice, Thick copper is worth it and cooks like a dream but it is really expensive.
Along the way of using these pans I discovered a cheaper alternative that cooks almost as well, they are still very beautiful to have and are cheaper (and also work with induction if you ever want to do the jump), and that is the Mauviel M'Cook line. It is impecably designed and cooks better than my All Clads, even the D5 line, and I do not think that the copper core line is worth it in comparison. Please note that all of these lines and brands are fenomenal, I just have preference after having cooked with all of them, but it si only one personal opinion that should be taken with a healthy pinch of salt. By the way, the Mauviel M'Cook has a version with the cast iron handle that is beautiful but you can choose it with stainless steel. The other alternative is as good as the M'Cook, it is DeBuyer Affinity (multi clad with 7layers)
 
EpidisReks
- that pan looks great indeed. Please do let us know how you like it once it gets some use. I would be in particular interested to hear about food sticking as I have heard two kind of opinions - one that polished pans stick more and one that polished pans stick less.

Casaluz
- thank you. You make a lot of valid points. I have no problem believing that 2.5mm pan cooks better than 1.5 - one needs to realize that the 2.5mm pan is 66% thicker and so it must redistribute the head across the pan much better - that is physics.
- you mention the Mauviel M'cook cookware - do you use them with electric glass-top stove or gas? We have the electric one and after some experience with thick-ish low end stainless pots (to cook water takes very long as the electric stove will not give you as high temperature as gas) I would hesitate to buy similar product.
- I am still drooling around the copper pans - did not order one yet (my wife is not too crazy about the weight). Once I will finally do that it will either be Falk or silver lined SoyTurkiye (which means that on top of the high price is shipping and VAT). The funny thing is - apart from the 'try-me' offer from Falk the prices for a pan of given size are pretty much the same. Dehillerin would be somewhat cheaper.
 
Matus, I use gas, but I know that in Europe is not so common (I am from Spain). The Mauviel M'Cook line has aluminum inside of the sandwich of layers of steel which gives it a much faster responsiveness (along with the extra thickness helping) than cheap stainless steel which has the worst heat conduction of all materials, perhaps that is why it was so slow. For you being in Germany you should talk to Falk directly in Belgium and the price should be differnt tahnwhat you see in Falk USA. Also the shipping from Dehillerin should be cheaper but you have to deal with VAT . If your heart is set on the copper, go ahead and invest in thick copper lined with stainless steel. You will be making an investment that can be easily sold if you do not like it, but i am almost certain that you will love them. I love mine and my only regret is not having chosen thick copper in all of them from the beginning. I would say that Dehilerin and Falk are equally superb, however you should consider an important issue in aesthetics. Dehillerin has a polished finish in the copper, the traditional polissh that you expect from copper and see in pictures and movies, while Falk has a brushed finish that enhances the natural copper colour and is a lot easier to clean and mantain than the polished version from Dehilerin, Mauviel and DeBuyer. It is a matter of taste and nothing more. I love Falk.
 
Matus said:
EpidisReks
- that pan looks great indeed. Please do let us know how you like it once it gets some use. I would be in particular interested to hear about food sticking as I have heard two kind of opinions - one that polished pans stick more and one that polished pans stick less.
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The pan was out of this world good. I made risotto with it. There was almost no sticking, except what you want (i.e., easily dislodged) and I had side-to-side simmering on the lowest heat setting of the sister-in-law's decent LG glass topped electric range. Just an amazing pan, absolutely worth every penny, and it wasn't cheap (though no more expensive than a good gyuto, these days). I can't wait to use it on gas and my quasi-French Top (I have two 10 inch bellacopper plates covering two of my burners) at home.

I can tell stories of the turkey as well, if people want. 24 hour brine (I do a basic brine these days, as I just don't notice much difference with aromatics and all that ****)->sous vide (18 hours at 140F for dark meat, 2.5 hours at 140F for light meat, in bags with sage, oregano, black pepper and duck fat) followed by a pre-sear with the Searzall, then a deep frying, then a salt application, then a post-sear with the Searzall, which made, by far, and I mean far, far, far and away, the best turkey I've ever had, but that wouldn't be talking about the copper pan. :)

I used an old 70s vintage 3 qt, and 3.5mm thick at the edge, tinned copper sauce pan (not sure of brand, it just says Made in France, but the handle seems like Mauviel) for the stock, with the risotto, and it was amazing. That pot was one of the best gifts I've ever been given. I also discovered that Velveeta (I was asked to make a broccoli dish, don't ask) dissolves tin, so my 70s vintage amazing pan, as mentioned, which already nearly needed a re-tinning, now seriously needs a re-tinning.
 
The M'Cook stuff is okay, but in the US you can get All-Clad seconds for the same money, and from what I've measured, the M'Cook line is no thicker than current All-Clad, and nowhere nearly as well finished. All-Clad knows how to finish a pan. I love my old first line All-Clad MasterChef from decades ago (I have five pieces, including the important 10 and 12 inch skillets). Old, old All-Clad is the best non-copper cookware I've used, and not that expensive on eBay, in America. And the cast stainless handles of the old All-Clad are amazing for grip.
 
And the risotto was outrageously good, but nobody else liked it: even though I cooked the rice far longer than I like, it wasn't "done." Ingrates. The sous vide carrots were well appreciated, though I had to cook them until soft, for typical American tastes, which hurt me inside. Sorry Matus, Thanksgiving talk. :)
 
big update: I just ordered 28cm sauce pan (the one with stainless steel long and helper handles) - I managed to get the same 'try me' offer discount on this pan instead on the small one (idea of Kaleo from chowhound forum). It should arrive soon - I am really curios about it! I will share once I will learn how to use it. I already know that the pan should be seasoned (there is description directly on the Falk webpage) and I will follow those instructions.

This also means that the silver plated copper pan will not happen anytime soon. I had hard time enough to persuade my lovely wife to allow me to order this one. She is yet to be convinced that it was a sense full investment. Let's hope that will be the case :)
 
Exciting news! It shouldn't need any seasoning, though, not sure what that refers to.
 
Here is the seasoning process Falk recommends for their pans. I read very similar recommendations elsewhere too.
 
EdipisReks said:
Totally unnecessary.
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Hmm, interesting. I thought that seasoning would sort of speed up the process of the surface becoming less sticky than brand new stainless surface. My experience (though only low end stainless pots) has been, that stuff may stick to the surface relatively easily. I would be interested to hear about your experience.
 
I've had issues with food sticking to stainless steel pans too. It doesn't matter if their fancy or utility pans. I read the seasoning suggestions by Falk and agree with Jacob, absolute non-sense. Seasoning Stainless. Its a contradiction in terms.

Preheating a pan is always important but its critical for stainless. I've found two techniques useful for stick free stainless.

1.) Put the pan on the stove under a low flame and give the whole pan a chance to warm for four or five minutes. Then raise heat, add fat, allow to warm for a few seconds, then add food.

2.) Pre warm pan, add a little fat, then wipe out pan with a paper towel, then add more fat and then add food.

Begin rant...
I gave up non-stick pans five or six years ago and have never looked back. Personally, I do almost all of my high to med-high saute, pan frying, searing meat, eggs in seasoned carbon Debuyers. I like stainless for things like bacon, and veggies and liquid foods. Some people like Zweffle (Danny), have taken seasoning carbon steel pans to an art form. The insides are perfectly covered with a layer of carbon that is entirely non-stick. Its nice but not necessary. I have seven Carbon De Buyer pans (including a shallow roasting pan), and they all have various levels of patina/darkening, but non are completely covered.

SS is nice for braising, but cast iron clad enamel still better. I have two Falks, 12" saute and 3 QT sauteuse that rarely get used. I think its because they are so high maintenance (this coming from a guy who loves maintenance) and they're heavy to move around. I can't just chuck them in the dishwasher like I can SS pan. So they have to be hand washed, dried and polished every time I use them. I know some leave the copper unpolished, but that aggravated my Virgo-ness too much. End rant...
 
Thanks - I'll guess I try that first and see how that works for me. Not a rant at all - looks like user experience to me.

Accidentally I am considering one of the de Buyer Pans to replace our teflon aluminium non-stick pan (which reached its EOL). The price is very reasonable - pretty much like average non stick pan, but I am not sure whether it would not be too heavy for my wife (she made it clear to me, that it will be ME using and ME washing the 3.5kg heavy Falk pan). Should I be getting one it would be either 30 (12") or 32 (13") cm pan - either Mineral B or that 'blue force' which are a bit lighter as they are only 2 mm thick. But I first want to see how the copper Falk works for me (us) before any further pan purchase.
 
I have the debuyer mineral B pans and they are heavy, so I am pretty sure your wife won't want to use it. But once you use it, you will never go back to non stick. The blue steel version is 1.8kg for 30cm according to the listing.
 
I have no trouble flipping food with one hand with a 12" carbon steel pan, but I'm a pretty big guy. Unless your wife is also a pretty big guy, that might be a skip, unfortunately, as they are great pans.
 
I got to handle some All-Clad C2, today. Seems to be about 2mm, and certainly not as thick as 2.5mm French copper, to my eyes and fingers. I didn't have calipers with me, and eyeballing pan thickness can be difficult. The same ergonomics as the D5 line, which is nice.
 
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