Tooth vs. Polish? Stone Advice?

[SolidSnake03]

Hey Everyone,

I'm trying to pin down exactly what is responsible for the edge feel/cutting that I prefer for my everyday home kitchen use knives. I generally used a gyuto or santoku for just about everything aside from the occasional loaf of bread. That said, I've been paying a good bit of attention to the edges I really enjoy using and have been struggling to discern if the feeling I prefer comes from higher grit refinement and polish or does it come from retaining some tooth?

The edge that is ideal to me is the one that seems to immediately cut into the food item, as in just lining your knife up over the food you feel it already cut in a bit. This is particularly noticeable on harder and slicker things like carrots or apples where my preferred edges just seems to grasp the item instantly. So far the only knives I've used that seem to have this quality exactly how I like it are the

Masakage Shimo White#2 Nakiri 165mm - Out of the box edge
Maskage Koishi Aogami Super Gyuto 240mm - Shapton 8000 then CrOxide and Bare Leather
Gesshin Ginga Stainless Western Gyuto 240mm - Gesshin 4000 edge
Tanaka Blue #2 Damascus Gyuto 240mm - JNS Haka
Itinomonn Santoku 165mm v2 - Out of the box edge which I'm assuming is a Natural stone since it's from Maxim??


I'm trying to figure out if the unifying theme here is "tooth" or the higher level of refinement. I've had knives finished on the Suehiro Rika as well as the Chosera Pro 3k and the Gesshin 6000 and 6000s and didn't get the same cutting feeling or performance. Specifically, I actually had Jon sharpen that GG on the 6000 and found the edge too slick so sent it back to have the 4000 used instead, vastly preferred that. This makes me think it would be tooth related but yet the Natural's are throwing me for a loop a bit because I'm guessing the grit on those is 6-8k if not more.

Any suggestions, ideas or other comments on this? Any experience with this edge feel or specifically what final stones were found to leave a edge with these cutting properties.

*edit* I've done some testing on this on my own the past few weeks and found that finishing a few of my knives, Fuji FKM, Fuji FKH, Misono Swedish, CCK 1101, Masakage Yuki on the Bester 1200, JNS 1000 *new one* and King 100 with light de-burring on the Rika and Felt DID NOT produce the edge I wanted so there is definitely some further refinement needed I feel or different stone's for the finish. The closest so far actually was the King 1000 where I worked up a good deal of mud fairly quickly unlike the other stones.

 

[SolidSnake03]

Second post because it was too long before I could edit

All of the edges I preferred (Masakage, Gesshin, Itinomonn and Tanaka) were able to easily shave up and down my arm.

Out of the edges I played around with NONE of them were able to easily shave, the closest I got was the King 1000 which felt a little rough but did an ok job. The JNS 1000 and Bester were was too rough, had trouble taking hair's off. Note that these tests were done on the same knives with different stones so it wasn't like I was comparing the FKH to the FKM or something like that, I understand the steels are different

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Hi SolidSnake,
if you liked the Gesshin 4000, why don't you try it by yourself? If i were in your shoes, i would sign up for Jon's stones passaround so that i would try it after a 1000 stone. Regarding Jnats, i feel, generally speaking, a good Jnat leaves a more effective edge than a synth of the same grit. The downside, besides the price, is that they are much slower, especially if you use them on stainless.

 

[Smurfmacaw]

My 2 cents.....I've got a few synthetic stones but I generally end up finishing every cool japanese knife or custom knife with a takashima awasedo...leaves the desired toothy edge with apparently some edge retention.....I like the edge it leaves. On some knives I want an aggressive edge but on some I want a refined edge...if slicing fish, I want the perfect polished edge, otherwise I want it to be a little more aggressive. Bottom line, I like the synths' but the single jnat i have is a winner. I'm going to start using other jnat finishers but will probably stick with the synthetic stones for the initial sharpening.

 

[aboynamedsuita]

I also wouldn't mind getting into jnats for finishing after the Choseras. That could get expensive I'm sure.

 

[Smurfmacaw]

Not too bad....I think I paid 150 for the takishima awasedo....not nearly as much as some of the "collector" stones that can run in the thousands. The feel of the jnat is so totally different than synthetics and so much more pleasant......just for that I want to explore some other stones.

It sure leaves a kick ass edge. Jnats are really cool based on my limited experience, great feel,nice edges. and just generally cool. I am going to get another jnat and continue to learn.

 

[SolidSnake03]

Yes it would be fairly easy to just buy the Gesshin 4000 but what I'm more interested in than just outright buying the stone is exactly what is causing the feeling I've experienced? Specifically, the Gesshin 6000 and 6000s are higher grit than the 4000 yet potentially lower grit than the natural stones. From looking at this strictly from a grit rating standpoint it doesn't make a whole lot of sense because one would assume as you went up higher the edge would take on more of a smooth and polished nature yet the natural finishes seemed to maintain the feeling I enjoy. Now this could be attributed to the naturals mixture of grits and how they are more toothy but then what exactly is going on with the Rika, Chosera 3000 and Gesshin 6000/6000s that is taking so much of the tooth away comparatively? And then how would a stone like the Takenoko 8k be referred to as toothy by someone like Martell if it doesn't have this mix of grits and is a fairly high grit number?

Maybe I'm thinking of this too much in terms of grit numbers and not assess the stones themselves enough?

Further, I was looking for more insight into what exactly is causing that instant cutting/immediately digging in feeling, is that strictly from having a more toothy lower grit edge or is it more from a higher grit finish but from something described as toothy like a natural stone or a Takenoko 8k potentially?

 

[Asteger]

I think 'toothy' edges can be an ellusive thing, with lots also determined by technique when sharpening, in addition to the tools and knife you use. That said, sure, I'd agree that naturals seem to do this better than synths. It's hard to pin down how it all works, though.

... sharpen ... on the 6000 and found the edge too slick so sent it back to have ... the 4000 used instead, vastly preferred that. This makes me think it would be tooth related but yet the Natural's are throwing me for a loop a bit because I'm guessing the grit on those is 6-8k if not more.

Nah. Of course in the old days naturals were all that was used, and so of course they go from coarse to super fine, in addition to the 6-8k range. Known sellers, JNS in particular, target this range for kitchen knife users, and the popular Takashima tomae are an example. Stones in this range pull in better prices and profits for the sellers, I think, but they're also pretty ideal for finishing your knives, with some liking it finer and some, like me, happy to be coarser too.

Aoto can be tricky but have a traditional reputation as knife-friendly stones in Japan - 'the King of knife stones' or something - and they're an example of a stone which is coarser than 6-8k but which are traditional and so recommended. Sometimes I use Takashima or similar stones to end with, but if I just took one it might still be my Aizu which maybe finishes around 3k-ish.

Unfortunately, it's difficult to buy lots of the potential other stones that have existed, and you tend to just see your Takashimas and other same stones popping up, and so people tend to think only in these terms. Aoto can be seen here and there, but the nature of the stone for one thing makes them a bit of a risk if you can't try it first.

 

[joyless]

Few days ago I have received second Itinomonn V2 from Maxim, and I also was extremely impressed by the quality of the edge, one of the best OOTB edges I've come across. Quite refined, but just with enough bite, something I can't achieve on any stones I own. The very same day I emailed him asking if he knows (and could share) how the knife was sharpened, unfortunately no reply yet, hopefully when he's done moving to new place.

 

[chinacats]

Maybe I'm thinking of this too much in terms of grit numbers and not assess the stones themselves enough?

I think this is the reality...kind of like worrying about steel type. My theory is find stones that you enjoy using (feel, muddy or not, speed, etc.) that take you there.

As to the Gesshin 4k, I think that is a very special stone that may be a nice way to finish most of your knives. I personally like the edges I get off my naturals but again that is a personal choice. As to synthetics, I always enjoyed the edge I got off Jon's 5k splash and go (I stone that I think he may have replaced?).

 

[agpower1]

My opinion. I'm aware others, and especially those traditionally trained or with professional experience, have a better background or view.

I'm influenced in part by Alex Gilmore. He's a Jnat dealer in California. He likes edge leading strokes because they directly abrade the burr. A certain stickiness of stone to steel.

I took this idea further by trying as best as possible to have a certain stickiness when sharpening. So I take it slow, mostly edge leading. Reducing in pressure as I progress. I consider the stickiness how deep the teeth of the knife meets the ridges, valleys, and recesses of the stone. Eventually I just use the knife's weight alone in edge leading and finally I strop with only the knife's pressure. The principle is frictive force. I try to avoid the knife hitting particles and the particles rolling and just elongating the steel--making the wire edge. I want the stone to abrade. Please note absolute cleanliness in the stone. Any swarf can microchip the knife or prevent removal of strips of fatigued metal.

This gives me edges that feel very solid, with little burr. They are toothy from edge leading. They are refined from the stropping. I test the knife by cutting into the hair on my head, from back to front. My hair is about two and a half inches long. I aim for the knife to aggressively cut into hair. But if it cuts into hair, I've reached my benchmark.

If an edge "runs", I don't consider it an edge. I try to redo those.

Jnats tend to aid in wire edge removal due to less deep scratch pattern, shape of grit, and break down of grit. The break down of grit hits those very edge most parts of fatigued metal.

I use a fairly hard Narutaki suita as a finisher. A medium hardness stone would be easier to deburr and achieve a solid edge. A harder stone is slower because the sharpening force doesn't translate as much into abrasion. Fewer volume of particles. But I can get a finer edge, the very most edge, so that gives me more options in what kind of tooth I want to leave with the grit, or what combination of microbevel or shape behind the edge I like. The polish also allows the very most edge to penetrate the food. I find synthetics often leave a kasumi composed of iron particles instead of the solid metal surface itself, in jigane, which drags on food. I need stone particles to bring up more particles from the hard stone. A nagura helps. So does a diamond plate. But that gouges the stone, and the inital sharpening won't be refined until I wear that part of the stone out during the session. A rougher steel surface also sharpens faster.

I do prefer naturals to synthetics for finishing, in use and in the edge sharpness and durability it gives. I feel it is easier to not fatigue the edge during sharpening.

Toothiness is often tied to cutting feedback. I feel even with my type of refined edge, I can feel the food, if not even better since the knife very distinctly cuts different among stiffer/softer/uneven substances. For example, in cutting cucumber I can feel a difference between skin, flesh, and watery seed mass. I like this feedback. It tells me how much force, what knife angle (tilt down of the knife), slicing speed, or technique to use (push cut or slice or tip on board and pull back).

If I recall correctly, Jon said he could get toothiness at 15k. So it is not entirely tied to grit size.

I like strong, solid teeth to incise and feel transfer of cutting force into food.

I like smaller teeth to feel greater differences between things I cut to adjust technique accordingly, so I can apply less force and reduce fatigue, and to improve surface finish and taste/texture.

--and I like a microbevel after sharpening at a very low angle to get great thinness behind the edge with chip resistance. Rolling or warping the edge--that still happens.

I don't like wire edge or microchips from sharpening. When cutting pepper skins, skin side down, the knife will leave a little skin uncut. To me, that means I resharpen.

If a steel feels glassy, it has higher wear resistance, and I take extra attention to deburring.

 

[chinacats]

Very well crafted first post Agpower. Welcome to the forum!

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Yes it would be fairly easy to just buy the Gesshin 4000 but what I'm more interested in than just outright buying the stone is exactly what is causing the feeling I've experienced?

Great that you think that way! In my opinion, that's the fun part of our quest, to be able to sharpen enough so we are able to isolate the variables that influence the desired result. It's nice that you know which kind of edge you like. Now you need to compare different stones while paying attention to your sharpening technique. For instance, if you used the Gesshin 4k (and before that, the same sequence Jon used) would you be able to consistently get that kind of edge? If you can, then the stones are responsible for that edge, but if you can't, then it's probably a technique issue.

 

[SolidSnake03]

Thanks guys so much!

I does seem that I need to assess the stones more than simply making guesses bases on grit rating.

That said, I have tested the idea of same person and knife but different stones. I feel confident that the stone is responsible for the edge I want more so than the person in that in having Jon use his 6000, 6000s and 4000 I noticed a substantial difference in edge feel, enough so to make me consider a 4000 and not either of the 6000's. Note that these were all on the same knife only a short while apart and from the first cut the diffrrence was striking.

That said I know user and technique have a role in this most certainly but in this one small example it seems to be stone related in that I would assume technique didn't wildly vary between the sharpening on these different stones.

 

[chinacats]

So now you can say that the 4k is the best stone for that knife for that sharpener

 

[Matus]

Just to add my 2 cents - I have often found that the edge off my Gesshin 6000 was a bit too polished to have the amount of bite I prefer - the advice of Jon was to simply spend less time on the 6000 (the preceding stone is Gesshin 2000). That does work rather well, but requires some self control (the 6000 is so nicely creamy, you just want to keep sharpening on it)

I have also found that the edges from my two natural stones (super soft Hakka and Hyderiyama - the second being distinctly finer, both are form Maksim) do lack the bite I wanted too. I can only wonder whether Takashima would give me edge with more bite. But I have to admit that I have too little experience with natural stones (I had troubles to get sharp edge from them AFTER I already had a sharp edge from 6000, that says I lot I guess)

Currently I plan to get either the Gesshin 4000 or the synthetic natural stone from Jon with my next order (in some 2-3 months I guess).

On top of that - some steels like SKD just keep that bity edge very long (I understand that has to do with relatively large grain of the steel) - one of the reasons I like it so much .

 

[SolidSnake03]

nteresting information matus, thanks!

The Gesshin Synthetic is another stone that appealed to me. The JNS sythn aoto might be worth considering too.

Regarding those naturals, why did you have trouble getting a sharp edge off them? They cut much slower or something? Just curious.

Further, were those naturals listed as leaving a toothy edge or how were they sold? Aka what kinda finish should they be leaving?

 

[Mucho Bocho]

Nick, I haven't tried many "finisher" stones before, but for white and stainless steels, JKS Takenono/Arashiyama leaves edges with bite and refinement when used as a dry strop. Will give you that grabby but refined edge with just a few strokes. Sometimes I'll even jump from a 1000 JKI Diamond stone and finish on the Takenono as dry strop. It doesn't work as well on blue steel. But for SG2, AEBL, Ginsanko, VG-10, SVN35V, Swedish, Kono HD its the trick.

I'll hit it three times on the right side at a higher than sharpening angle, then one on the left. Knives will push cut through looped newspaper without sliding.

 

[Matus]

nteresting information matus, thanks!

The Gesshin Synthetic is another stone that appealed to me. The JNS sythn aoto might be worth considering too.

Regarding those naturals, why did you have trouble getting a sharp edge off them? They cut much slower or something? Just curious.

Further, were those naturals listed as leaving a toothy edge or how were they sold? Aka what kinda finish should they be leaving?

Well, the Hakka is a 'composite' stone I made from 2 small Hakka stones (about 160x40x40 each) that were lv 2.5. That stone is very muddy (and thirsty) and I have expected not too polished edge from it. The Hyderiyama is a little harder and polished edge would probably not be a surprise. But the thing is - I had shaving sharp edge off the Gesshin 6000 and somehow managed to 'loose' it with the subsequent sharpening on the natural stones. I guess that tells a lot about my skills. Anyhow - I need to use them more and see whether it makes sense for me to keep them. In particular if I seem to prefer toothier edges nowadays. The feel is however really something I can appreciate. Both stones were advertised as suitable for kitchen knives (and in the case of the Hyderiyama I have contacted Maxim beforehand).

Speed - yes, they are both slower than the Gesshin 6000, but that does not come as a surprise to me. I did not expect them to topple a high end synthetic stone.

 

[SolidSnake03]

Mucho:
That JKS Takenono/Arashiyama sounds like what I'm looking for in regards to a final stone or step I can take that will leave a bitey finish. Being able to push cut like that sounds good to me. The price on that stone seems good and the fact that it's splash and go is an added bonus, will look into that one more.

Matus:
Thanks for the info, when you mention shaving sharp edges off the Gesshin 6000, you mean you could pop arm hair off easily but the edge didn't have the "bite" you wanted? This was taken from your last post as well when you mentioned the 6000 not leaving enough tooth for you. So in other words, the edge would shave hair but wasn't ideal for food cutting? Or at least wasn't ideal for cutting all sorts of food like pepper skin or tomato?

Interesting about loosing the sharpness when going to the naturals, no idea what might have caused that? Maybe Maxim or Jon or someone would need to further elaborate on it.

Regarding speed, sort of figured they would be slower, just wanted to know, thanks!

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Hi SolidSnake, just wanted to let you know that i just had a wonderful experience with a Takenoko on a Yoshikane SLD blade. It was unable to easily go through tomatoes' skin and this knife has never been sharpened. I just got the Takenoko today and used it directly on the blade (without any lower grit stone preceding it). To my surprise, it widened the bevel pretty fast and after the sharpening this knife was going through the tomatoes' skin like butter.

 

[Asteger]

Well, the Hakka is a 'composite' stone I made from 2 small Hakka stones (about 160x40x40 each) that were lv 2.5. That stone is very muddy (and thirsty) and I have expected not too polished edge from it. The Hyderiyama is a little harder and polished edge would probably not be a surprise. But the thing is - I had shaving sharp edge off the Gesshin 6000 and somehow managed to 'loose' it with the subsequent sharpening on the natural stones. I guess that tells a lot about my skills.

Interesting about loosing the sharpness when going to the naturals, no idea what might have caused that? Maybe Maxim or Jon or someone would need to further elaborate on it.

As the 2 naturals Matus was writing about should be pretty near the Takenono/Arashiyama in fineness, I think as Matus said that switching between them and losing some sharpness off the edge would probably be down to technique and not quite getting it right whichever final stone was used. Easily happens, and that's what I'd presume if it happened to me. Or it might also have been that the shaving sharp edge that was lost was overly fine and wouldn't have lasted anyway, and this is what came off. However, you should be able to get a hair-nicking level of sharpness with any of the stones in this class, I think, so probably the technique wasn't as good on the final stone.

.. just wanted to let you know that i just had a wonderful experience with a Takenoko on a Yoshikane SLD blade. It was unable to easily go through tomatoes' skin and this knife has never been sharpened. I just got the Takenoko today and used it directly on the blade (without any lower grit stone preceding it). To my surprise, it widened the bevel pretty fast and after the sharpening this knife was going through the tomatoes' skin like butter.

Bom dia, M. I like this one too. One of the first stones I bought, and though I rarely pull it out it's survived over in my stone room.

 

[Marcelo Amaral]

Bom dia, Gerrard! Just got it out of curiosity in order to use it on stainless steel. Besides the Hakka (and i imagine, Takashima) and Hideriyama, which other stones would you use it to get an edge similar to the one Takenoko leaves?

Interesting about loosing the sharpness when going to the naturals, no idea what might have caused that? Maybe Maxim or Jon or someone would need to further elaborate on it.

I'm not an experienced sharpener, but when that happened to me it was because i was using too much pressure when sharpening. This happened with a pretty soft steel blade, a tramontina knife, so it may not relate to the case. It was sharpened on a 800 or 1k (don't remember) synth stone and later on, an Ikarashi from JNS, when it happened. Hope this helps!

 

[Asteger]

Besides the Hakka (and i imagine, Takashima) and Hideriyama, which other stones would you use it to get an edge similar to the one Takenoko leaves?

Hmm, Hakka is a special one, as JNS really seemed to have a line on them for a couple of years (I mean, they didn't even seem to be an option in Japan, and still don't) and the JNS ones seemed to be pretty good or really good.

Hideriyama, well, if you're talking tomae are maybe best avoided, depending on what you want, due to strong silica bits within the stones which are annoying and scratch. You could get a dracula-like toothiness if you want with these, maybe, although I hope there are good ones out there too. I've seen that Hideriyama exist too, but don't know what they're like. On the other hand, as they're outside of the classic area of Kyoto awasedo mines, and the mine was operational not too long ago, it seems they're more economical, and they're also softer and so more knife-friendly.

There are similar softer Ohira and Shobu, and potentially some others, depending on the stone. Ashiya, near Takashima, is one I wonder about. Maybe some stones from the active mine Maruoyama are a possibility too, but like many other stones to they're not available through the usual international channels.

(By the way - I'm just thinking of different nat stone comparisons and what I know. Always good to check yourself, but I'm not pulling out my Arashiyama to compare and double-check all this )

 

[SolidSnake03]

Thanks for that info guys! Makes more sense now about losing the edge when going to a natural potentially being more down to technique or a fragile edge that wouldn't have withstood kitchen use anyway. I was wracking my brain thinking how a higher grit could cause a loss of sharpenness and that is all I could come up with as well.

I am interested in picking up one of these Takenoko's at some point then. I actually just got a Imanishi Tamago 4k and REALLY like it, leaves a very nice edge that has some bite. Went from a 2k Shapton Pro to the Imanishi Tamago and was pleasantly surprised by the edge. Wondering if going to something like the Takenoko next or the Kitayama might up my edge even a bit more while still retaining a bit of tooth?

Or potentially dropping out the Tamago and going straight to the Takenoko from the Shapton 2k?

Just thinking out load here.

 

[panda]

i think what you are looking for is a 'sticky edge'. and a hakka definitely has that type of finish so it is most likely down to your technique. at higher grits you only need to spend a short amount of time with very little pressure.

 

[Matus]

Mucho:

Matus:
Thanks for the info, when you mention shaving sharp edges off the Gesshin 6000, you mean you could pop arm hair off easily but the edge didn't have the "bite" you wanted? This was taken from your last post as well when you mentioned the 6000 not leaving enough tooth for you. So in other words, the edge would shave hair but wasn't ideal for food cutting? Or at least wasn't ideal for cutting all sorts of food like pepper skin or tomato?

Interesting about loosing the sharpness when going to the naturals, no idea what might have caused that? Maybe Maxim or Jon or someone would need to further elaborate on it.

Regarding speed, sort of figured they would be slower, just wanted to know, thanks!

Regarding the Gesshin 6000 - yes, that is what I meant. Hair popping sharp, but too little 'bite' on food.

Concerning the natural stones - I would blame that entirely on my technique and my (lack of) ability to get the angles right. Sharpening knives some 6-10 times per year does not really make you a master after 2-3 years. Just an OK sharpener. Using natural stones properly is apparently still quite a bit beyond my current skills.

 

[SolidSnake03]

Thanks panda, that is definitely a good description of the edge type I'm interested in. I'll be sure to remember to keep the pressure light on the higher grit stuff.

Matus, that is exactly how I found the Gesshin 6000 too. I didn't like it as a food edge but I could shave with it. Much prefer the Tamago edge for example.

That makes sense about technique and sharpening experience, I sharpen a bit more than that myself but after the last year I feel like I do "ok" but not great by any means. That said though I'm still interested in picking up a natural to give itba spin anyhow

 

[Matus]

Just to add - I have that new synthetic natural stone from Jon on my next order and I will keep trying to improve my 'natural' skills

 

[SolidSnake03]

Whenever you get that stone I would be interested to hear how you like it. Thanks!