Tooth vs. Polish? Stone Advice?

[joyless]

i have just received harder takashima from aframes and i think this might be the edge i was always looking for. i have no idea what's the "grit", but the balance between tooth and refinement seems just perfect.

 

[joyless]

the edge seems to be much more refined than what i get from rika, yet it still has much more bite

 

[spoiledbroth]

I think this is really not a simple question to answer I think there are two variables which are going to affect what kind of edge you receieve (not taking technique or skill into the equation because I don't think that's what you're asking).

For the first variable: the stone... I don't think grit ratings mean anything. A 1k naniwa stone is going to have a different particle size than a 1k king or a 1k bester, at least this is what Lee Valley has led me to believe with their stone comparison chart (which I'd assume they got particle sizes from the manufacturers).

So are two stones at 10 micron grit going to produce the same edge? I'm not a vastly experienced sharpener like Jon Broida, or any of the other vendors here who sharpen for a living (and may chime in after this post telling me my assertion is wrong), but I'm going to posit the answer of no! Synthetic stones are made by various methods (resin bonding, vitrification etc) and composed of various materials. Here is something interesting I found while surfing around Suehiro toishi on TFJ yesterday...

Usually, any given stone manufacturer will offer a single stone of a single grit in a stone 'family' and it will be of a particular composition.

In the case of this WA (White Alundum) #8000 grit stone, it is one of a pair of superficially identical stones, the other using GC (Green Carborundum) abrasive.

The difference between the two abrasives is not simple, but is distinct.

WA is a tougher, more resilient abrasive. It offers greater speed as the abrasive stays 'on size' for longer, and when it does break down, it loses it's sharpeness creating more of a polishing/burnishing effect. The edge should be brightly polished, smooth and sharp but missing some of the bite when compared to the GC stone.

GC is a harder, more brittle abrasive. It offers superior capability with harder, tougher steels but when the abrasive 'breaks down' it becomes smaller in size, but still quite sharp leaving a well polished, but slightly 'sharp' edge with more bite than the WA stone offers.

The difference between these two stones is not great, but for the well practised sharpener, the differences should be easily identified.

I thought this was super interesting, and I'd venture to argue that while I might not consider myself a well practised sharpener I bet even a relatively new knife enthusiast would probably be able to determine the difference (let's say they're a/b testing) between the two edges mentioned above (in use, not in sharpening, say cutting a tomato or something). FWIW the Rika is a white alundum stone too.

The other variable is the steel... Some steel just doesn't hold up to a high level of refinement, with stainless in particular I find going for a high level of refinement on any of the run of the mill steels (aus, vg, 440, xcrwhatever, even the beloved sandvic and bohler uddeholm razor steels) isn't going to produce much in the way of a good all around edge (in particular not great for a general purpose knife like a gyuto unless all you're doing is processing hard root veg).. I really like ginsan so I might not include it in that list, I've had pretty good results in stropping it and not getting a weak or running edge. As ever, I suppose your mileage may vary.

 

[SolidSnake03]

Hey everyone, just wanted to check back in here and say that I've currently found 3 stones that are leaving pretty much a dream edge for me. The edge is about as good as anything I've ever used minus a pair of edges finished with some very expensive natural stones (Hakka and a Suita). The two stones I'm finishing with right now are the

Imanishi Tamago 4k
JNS 6k
JKI Diamond Stone 6k

All of these stones are leaving wonderful edges that have exactly the sort of tooth and bite I'm looking for. Every knife from a $8 Kiwi and a $9 no name random Asian Market Nakiri to an old MAC petty to an Itinomonn Santoku and Z Kramer Essential has had a wonderful finishing edge from either of these stones. I've been switching off using either the JNS or Imanishi as my finisher and found both to do an excellent job leaving an edge that seems to jump into tomato's with the lightest slice. Regarding the JKI 6k Diamond, I've had the pleasure of using a few knives now that were finished with this thing and have been just as impressed as the two stones I own and use myself (Imanishi and JNS).

Anyhow, just wanted to check in and say that so far I've found 2 wonderful stones as finishers that I do truly love after trying a ton of others from the Gesshin line, Shapton Pro's, Shapton Glass, Chosera's (although I really should try these again because I was a bit more naive in my sharpening when I had them), SuperStones, King and Suehiro.

Highly recommend any of these stones as a finisher if you're looking for an edge with some bite to it, something that really does seem to grab your thumb nail and yet still seems to easily shave some arm hair off. For me, it's an ideal balance.....but of course that doesn't mean I wonder stop trying to push my edges even further while keeping that bite.

 

[alwayssharp]

I think edges depend on the user...
For me, working with fish and soft proteins, all of my knives are polished with a kitayama 8000 grit or sometimes chosera 6000.

After about 10 years of sharpening, i dislike toothy edges.

 

[brainsausage]

I think edges depend on the user...
For me, working with fish and soft proteins, all of my knives are polished with a kitayama 8000 grit or sometimes chosera 6000.

After about 10 years of sharpening, i dislike toothy edges.

If you're primarily working with fish and soft proteins, I can see why you dislike toothy edges. Beyond that though, why would you not care for them?