Which German knives are of the highest quality?

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nugnugs

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Hello all,

I did extensive Google searches last night to try to find this answer, but I'd like to confirm with you guys.

A lot of folks who aren't into into knives do not know of these master blacksmiths from Japan who create Japanese knives of superior quality. Many think brands like Shun are top of the line. Before I stumbled across these forums, I was actually in that camp. Since then I feel like I've learned a lot from the countless discussions here.

However, I've found that there's very little discussion on German knives. All discussions I've found point to brands such as Wusthof, Messermeister, Henckels, etc. being the apex of quality German knives. You know, brands you can purchase in your local Williams and Sonoma. Like Shun.

I'm just wondering if there exists any analogs to the Kurosakis, Sajis, Masamotos, etc. in the German knife community that the mass public may be unaware of, that would make a Wusthof seem subpar in comparison. Because if there is, I couldn't find anything.
 
Of the commonly available I like the Messermeister Meridian Elite. Would rather have a good Sabatier if looking for Euro (not German) knife.

Our European members will be along shortly and probably provide you better answers. There is a "which knife" questionnaire at the top of this forum that will help them provide recommendations tailored to your requirements.
 
Herder, especially their 1922 series. Old school, Art déco, traditionally forged, with a narrow fingerguard, simple carbon steel C75W, but hardened at 60Rc. Excellent thin grinding. Their 23cm chef's and 23 slicer are amongst my favourites at home.
 
No, german industry has been industrialized for a long time.
 
HRC_64 said:
No, german industry has been industrialized for a long time.
Click to expand...

You miss the point which is that in spite of industrialization, there are still a handful of German manufacturers hand making (not robots) good knives with traditional techniques.
Two examples are Gude and Herder. Herder in fact has an apprenticeship program to try to preserve these skills.
 
Thank you all for generating discussion, I'll fill out the questionnaire so we have more to work with.



LOCATION
What country are you in?
USA (nyc)


KNIFE TYPE
What type of knife are you interested in (e.g., chef’s knife, slicer, boning knife, utility knife, bread knife, paring knife, cleaver)?
Chef's knife

Are you right or left handed?
Right

Are you interested in a Western handle (e.g., classic Wusthof handle) or Japanese handle?
Western only

What length of knife (blade) are you interested in (in inches or millimeters)?
8-10. I'm used to 8, but have a 240mm gyuto which I have gotten used to. Judging by what people say, once you get used to 10, you'll never go back to 8. So maybe longer than 8.

Do you require a stainless knife? (Yes or no)
Highly preferable. This will be a 'beater', something that can take abuse, and something I wouldn't mind letting friends use if they want to cook in my house.
I already have a high-maintenance gyuto, and am in the market for something that is the exact opposite of high-maintenance, yet still of superb quality.

What is your absolute maximum budget for your knife?
Cost is no issue, but I don't want to spend extra $$ for non-functional upgrades. ie. I would not get a Wusthof Ikon blackwood over a Wusthof Classic Ikon, since the difference is only the handle material.


KNIFE USE
Do you primarily intend to use this knife at home or a professional environment?
Home

What are the main tasks you primarily intend to use the knife for (e.g., slicing vegetables, chopping vegetables, mincing vegetables, slicing meats, cutting down poultry, breaking poultry bones, filleting fish, trimming meats, etc.)? (Please identify as many tasks as you would like.)
Ideally it should do be able to do everything short of butchering. I got a cleaver for that. Something that can handle breaking down a chicken, maybe?

What knife, if any, are you replacing?
Not replacing a knife, just want a new one that can take abuse. For the record I DO have a J.A. Henckels 4 star lying around somewhere.

Do you have a particular grip that you primarily use?
Pinch grip

What cutting motions do you primarily use?
Pushcut, but I'd like something can can handle rocking and drawing.

What improvements do you want from your current knife? If you are not replacing a knife, please identify as many characteristics identified below in parentheses that you would like this knife to have.)

Better aesthetics (e.g., a certain type of finish; layered/Damascus or other pattern of steel; different handle color/pattern/shape/wood; better scratch resistance; better stain resistance)?
I want something with a half-bolster, for ease of sharpening. Other than that, I don't care much for aesthetics, but better stain resistance would be nice for the lower maintenance.

Comfort (e.g., lighter/heavier knife; better handle material; better handle shape; rounded spine/choil of the knife; improved balance)?
I would definitely like something balanced for a pinch grip.

Ease of Use (e.g., ability to use the knife right out of the box; smoother rock chopping, push cutting, or slicing motion; less wedging; better food release; less reactivity with food; easier to sharpen)?
Less reactivity to food, smoother rock chopping

Edge Retention (i.e., length of time you want the edge to last without sharpening)?
I kind of like sharpening, so I dont care. Nothing more frequent than once a week though. That's excessive.


KNIFE MAINTENANCE
Do you use a bamboo, wood, rubber, or synthetic cutting board? (Yes or no.)
Wood
Do you sharpen your own knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes
If not, are you interested in learning how to sharpen your knives? (Yes or no.)
Yes
Are you interested in purchasing sharpening products for your knives? (Yes or no.)
Already have a 1000/6000 Cerax combo, with a diamond plate. Not really interested in purchasing more than that, Kind of hoping this knife wouldn't need any more special considerations


SPECIAL REQUESTS/COMMENTS
I have a chinese cleaver and a japanese gyuto. I kind of want something top of the line from Germany, to flesh out my collection of the different chef knives from across the world. I want this to be the quintessential European knife. I've been eyeing the Wusthof Classic Ikon 9 Inch, but I'd like to know if there's better out there.
 
The 4 Star was the last good knife line Henckels produced. Still have an 8 and 10 inch around somewhere.

I've worked with newer Henks and Wusties Classic and Ikon, and there's not a lot of difference - all very average knives. Both brands are evenly balanced to appeal to housewives. The Messermeister suggested above is a little blade heavy which makes working with it (seem?) easier. And you don't have to pay the premium to not have a bolster.
 
Meridian Elite looks good actually.

Is there a difference between the Meridian Elite and the Olive Elite, besides the handle?
 
I have one 4 star Henckels 8 inch and one Wussie Classic 8 inch and I like them both,yes,even with the bolster but it sounds like I am the only one on the planet who does.Hey,I think that makes me special.:biggrin:
 
Just get a wustoff and pair it with a j-knife and you're fine.
 
If you insist on getting a German knife: some models of the former Wüsthof Cordon Bleu series have now migrated to the Classics:
https://www.wuesthof.com/internation...-knife-4581-23
Lighter, balance point at the bolster, no fingerguard.
Out of the box, the will need a bit of work: working away the shoulders, convexing the bevels, putting a realistic edge on it. I use a Chosera 400 for that purpose. Be aware that soft stainless is very abrasion resistant and doesn't hold highly polished edges. So you need a medium coarse stone and may strop and deburr with your 1k.
The factory edge is thinner than the steel can hold or even take: have seen a few that weren't deburred. Behind the edge they are as all stainless Germans twice as fat as desirable.
No big deal, but it needs some light work before the first use.
 
Thank you all.

I managed to find a Wusthof half bolster LCB 9 inch for $100. It is to my understanding that the Meridian Elite and the Classic Ikon are very similar, and seeing as how they are respectively $150 and $200, I've elected to purchase the Le Cordon Bleu verson.
 
What's your current knife and why do you call it high maintenance?

Forthe record, most Euro stainless kind of sucks.
 
Oh I messed up...

That price is for the stealth though, is the stealth better than the non-stealth version? I figured a bulkier blade = more durable and able to take more abuse, so for my purposes i don't want stealth.
 
chinacats said:
What's your current knife and why do you call it high maintenance?

Forthe record, most Euro stainless kind of sucks.
Click to expand...

I currently have a Kurosaki Syousin Migaki AS. I suppose it's not so high of a maintenance, but I'm still looking for something that can be neglected.
 
nugnugs said:
Thank you all.

I managed to find a Wusthof half bolster LCB 9 inch for $100. It is to my understanding that the Meridian Elite and the Classic Ikon are very similar, and seeing as how they are respectively $150 and $200, I've elected to purchase the Le Cordon Bleu verson.
Click to expand...

I have the same, my last stainless chef's. Wüsthof had to abandon the name of this series since Le Cordon Bleu went into business with Zwilling / Henckels. That's why they integrated them in their Classics, and you may get some old stock much cheaper.
The best Wüsthof you can get IMHO. The work to be done I've described is the same with all German stainless, I'm afraid. This one is a bit lighter and thinner, though.

Can't tell anything about the Meridian. Is made by Burgvogel, Solingen, who is slightly differently positioned abroad than in the European market. With us it's a reliable, cheaper and slightly softer alternative to Wüsthof and Zwilling / Henckels.
 
If you want something extraordinary you could get a handmade knife from Jürgen Schanz. He is one of the best custom knife makers in Germany and worldwide (among other things he was the youngest person to ever earn an official certified German "Meister" status in his line of work. He is also the official purveyor of all edgy shharp things to the Royal Family of Qatar who like to give away his knives as presents of state). The prices are pretty reasonable because the knives are relatively simply made and he doesnt use exotic supersteels but they all perform extremely well:

https://www.schanz-shop.de/de/handgefertigte-messer/kochmesser/
 
You may also want to consider Tilman and Xerxes.
 
mhpr262 said:
If you want something extraordinary you could get a handmade knife from Jürgen Schanz. He is one of the best custom knife makers in Germany and worldwide (among other things he was the youngest person to ever earn an official certified German "Meister" status in his line of work. He is also the official purveyor of all edgy shharp things to the Royal Family of Qatar who like to give away his knives as presents of state). The prices are pretty reasonable because the knives are relatively simply made and he doesnt use exotic supersteels but they all perform extremely well:

https://www.schanz-shop.de/de/handgefertigte-messer/kochmesser/
Click to expand...

He uses mainly Niolox...
 
mhpr262 said:
The prices are pretty reasonable because the knives are relatively simply made and he doesnt use exotic supersteels but they all perform extremely well
Click to expand...
I either wouldn't call Niolox a very simple steel that explains Schanz' moderate prices.
 
Xerxes, one of the few non-Japanese makers I want to try
 
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