You asked, you whined, now here it is: Kato passaround

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Just read Ben's note. I'll touch it up, but I won't kill it ;)
 
heirkb said:
Just read Ben's note. I'll touch it up, but I won't kill it ;)
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant to let you know that it needed some time on the stones. I really beat on it to see if it deserved the name 'workhorse'. And it does IMO. I have pretty rudimentary sharpening skills, so I didn't really feel comfortable sharpening it.
 
Im gonna run it through the paces myself. We have a lot of catering during my week, so it's gonna see a lot of use. Heirkb, after you take it to the stones, let us know what you think again
 
I have a bit of an update. Just a heads up, when it comes to things like knives, I'm usually the type of person who makes up my mind fairly quickly about a knife. This could be good or bad, but in my experience, it's been a fairly accurate predictor of how I'll like the knife in the future. I could learn to adjust to the tools, but with tests as simple as splitting an apple or mincing an onion, if the knife doesn't perform the way I want, I don't feel the need to adjust to a $500 tool when others can do the same job better for my uses. I've had experiences where I've compared a knife and found one knife to better cutting than the other for my uses. I then adjusted to the less nice cutter after using it almost exclusively for months, but as soon as I compared it to the better cutting knife again, it would immediately remind me of my first impressions of the knife. Anyways, that was a long disclaimer so that you know where I'm coming from with my opinion...

I sharpened up the edge on this knife and let me say, this was one of the hardest knives for me to raise a consistent burr on. Don't worry, Ben, I didn't remove too much metal (I'll post a pic of the current edge. I did end up lowering the bevel angle by just a hair I think, so that may have contributed to the issues raising the burr, but still, when I've done such a small decrease in the bevel angle (1-2 degrees probably), I haven't had this much trouble. The final edge is not awesome like a pro-sharpened edge would be, but a definite improvement.

The knife after sharpening behaved very differently. It shaved hard items much better. It cut semi-soft items (e.g. swiss chard stems) very well with no sticking. It did fairly well on the vertical cuts on the onions. It struggled a bit on horizontal onion cuts, which I'm sure was partly my technique and partly the knife. Finally, the knife struggled a good bit on bigger cuts on anything hard that I tried (e.g. turnips). I've talked a lot with others about this and how technique can improve it. Technique did improve the cuts on harder items, but the knife still struggled much more than my Marko practice gyuto (and more than I remember my Heiji struggling). All in all, there wasn't a single cutting test I did on a range of soft to hard vegetables (no meat slicing, though) where this knife outperformed my Marko gyuto (or my memory of my Heiji). Now this could be too hasty a conclusion, but as I said at the top of the post, I usually get a good sense of how I like a knife after the first few uses.

A few more things...this knife was not particularly reactive, but it just reminded me of how awesomely unreactive Marko's 52100 is for carbon. The onions I cut with this guy oxidized fairly quickly, but the ones I cut with the Marko gyuto were totally clean. Finally, this thing is HEAVY. Seriously, you've heard it, but you don't get it until you actually have the knife in your hands. Makes my Marko feel like a petty even though it's a 250 gyuto.

I'll keep this for another day or two just to make sure yesterday wasn't a fluke, but knowing the (perhaps too) hasty way I form opinions about knives, I don't want to hold up the passaround for longer than necessary. Thanks again for the awesome opportunity, Ben. Feeling like I no longer want to buy the Kato is like having a $600 weight lifted :lol2:
 
heirkb said:
I have a bit of an update. Just a heads up, when it comes to things like knives, I'm usually the type of person who makes up my mind fairly quickly about a knife. This could be good or bad, but in my experience, it's been a fairly accurate predictor of how I'll like the knife in the future. I could learn to adjust to the tools, but with tests as simple as splitting an apple or mincing an onion, if the knife doesn't perform the way I want, I don't feel the need to adjust to a $500 tool when others can do the same job better for my uses. I've had experiences where I've compared a knife and found one knife to better cutting than the other for my uses. I then adjusted to the less nice cutter after using it almost exclusively for months, but as soon as I compared it to the better cutting knife again, it would immediately remind me of my first impressions of the knife. Anyways, that was a long disclaimer so that you know where I'm coming from with my opinion...

I sharpened up the edge on this knife and let me say, this was one of the hardest knives for me to raise a consistent burr on. Don't worry, Ben, I didn't remove too much metal (I'll post a pic of the current edge. I did end up lowering the bevel angle by just a hair I think, so that may have contributed to the issues raising the burr, but still, when I've done such a small decrease in the bevel angle (1-2 degrees probably), I haven't had this much trouble. The final edge is not awesome like a pro-sharpened edge would be, but a definite improvement.

The knife after sharpening behaved very differently. It shaved hard items much better. It cut semi-soft items (e.g. swiss chard stems) very well with no sticking. It did fairly well on the vertical cuts on the onions. It struggled a bit on horizontal onion cuts, which I'm sure was partly my technique and partly the knife. Finally, the knife struggled a good bit on bigger cuts on anything hard that I tried (e.g. turnips). I've talked a lot with others about this and how technique can improve it. Technique did improve the cuts on harder items, but the knife still struggled much more than my Marko practice gyuto (and more than I remember my Heiji struggling). All in all, there wasn't a single cutting test I did on a range of soft to hard vegetables (no meat slicing, though) where this knife outperformed my Marko gyuto (or my memory of my Heiji). Now this could be too hasty a conclusion, but as I said at the top of the post, I usually get a good sense of how I like a knife after the first few uses.

A few more things...this knife was not particularly reactive, but it just reminded me of how awesomely unreactive Marko's 52100 is for carbon. The onions I cut with this guy oxidized fairly quickly, but the ones I cut with the Marko gyuto were totally clean. Finally, this thing is HEAVY. Seriously, you've heard it, but you don't get it until you actually have the knife in your hands. Makes my Marko feel like a petty even though it's a 250 gyuto.

I'll keep this for another day or two just to make sure yesterday wasn't a fluke, but knowing the (perhaps too) hasty way I form opinions about knives, I don't want to hold up the passaround for longer than necessary. Thanks again for the awesome opportunity, Ben. Feeling like I no longer want to buy the Kato is like having a $600 weight lifted :lol2:
Click to expand...
wow
 
It's good to hear different users' perspectives. Very nice writeup.
 
mainaman said:
wow
Click to expand...

Maybe yours is different. Or maybe everyone who has loved Shigs and Katos in the past has had a golden touch with them. Whatever it is, I simply haven't gotten why people think they're such special cutters. Special knives, yes, but as cutters, both my Shig gyuto and this Kato haven't blown me away.
 
Just to add a little more of an update in case I hurt a few feelings :lol2:

I threw more things at this knife. I'd been talking with another member about good tests for geometry and I agreed with him that mincing onion finely is a particularly good test, so that was one that I weighed heavily. I did a bunch of random cutting of a lot of hard winter vegetables, onion mincing, greens, softer veg...I split hard veg, shaved the hard veg, cut them into different sized cubes, minced onions, shaved leeks, did a lot of rocking with the greens and herbs, and other random things. Sorry, no meat because the meat I ate was braised. In every single thing except one, the Marko gyuto was just a much more effortless cutter. Where the Kato was better was on greens and herbs. I haven't loved really thin-behind-the-edge knives for greens in the past either (felt the same about my Tilman). For those who don't like hearing that I didn't love the Kato, maybe you can console yourselves by thinking that I am an unskilled user and that the Marko is more dumb-user-friendly, but I see zero benefit to buying a less user-friendly knife if another is already literally effortless at cutting (unlike many other knives that I had heard supposedly fall through food, the Marko actually does), has great food release, great edge retention, etc. without any need for esoteric adjustments.

A few other things...the reactiveness on this knife is nice. Not as nice as the 52100 practice knife, but still nice. There was a minor overgrind at the heel of the knife where the bevel tapered off when I got the knife. I don't think it was a sharpening problem, because the stone wouldn't hit that part of the heel for a while. It seems to have mostly come out after my sharpening, though.

Thanks again for the opportunity, Ben. I really appreciate having had a chance to try this knife. It will be in the mail tomorrow.

Here are some pictures:

very minor overgrind:
photo1-19_zps9e4cff20.jpg

bevels after sharpening:
photo2-16_zps1973fad2.jpg

photo3-14_zpsfe3dc54b.jpg

kato choil:
photo4-8_zpsa4e9552f.jpg

marko choil (can't quite see the grind well in this):
photo-7_zpsa81cfea7.jpg
 
The Kato went out earlier today (or I guess it's yesterday for us east-coasters), as promised. Thanks again.
 
I'll PM it to you soon; sorry for forgetting to do that earlier.
 
Sounds to me like I really have to get one Marko.
You mind passing yours around? :):spiteful:
 
I hate the postal service this time of the year. Estemiated delivery yesterday, and tracking not updated since it was shipped. Stupid mail.


Bitching over. I was just hoping to get some time with it before the holiday weekend.
 
I think I was the first person to get the knife on the pass around. Overall I liked it very much. The edge it had on it was excellent. It is a hefty knife by all accounts but it cut everything I used it for adequately. That being said I did notice more wedging on some potatoes than I have experienced on other knives. However I think that this knife is made with food release in mind, with the understanding that there will be a little more wedging. I did not sharpen it at all because I did not use it too much but a quick stropping had the edge sticky sharp again. I feel that a knife like this is a good example of differences in personal preferences. Some people like to drive a Big 4x4 pickup and others a little sports car. Both can be perfect for their owner but both still have pluses and minuses.
 
I picked it up from the post office this morning as I was my home to sign for it yesterday. Unfortunately, I had to drop it off home them head to Pittsburgh till Monday, so I will not have a chance to use it tip then

First impression though, was I was expecting a nicer f&f on a knife this price. The transition from the buffalo horn and the wood is a little rough. Maybe I'm just being a little picky. I do like the heft of her, but that's just from a quick handling. I'll report back a little more in depth after the holidays
 
Ill be mailing it out tomorrow. Didn't get to use it that much, but the little I did, I found it was a little to thick or my tastes. I liked the lower reactivity, and the edge retention was great, just didn't feel right in my hand. I'm glad I was able to try her out, just think its not my "thing." Probably due I me being a cleaver guy, but I was worth a shot.


I didn't sharpen her, just a few strops here and there, as I was happy with the edge it had.
 
Jmadams13 said:
Ill be mailing it out tomorrow. Didn't get to use it that much, but the little I did, I found it was a little to thick or my tastes. I liked the lower reactivity, and the edge retention was great, just didn't feel right in my hand. I'm glad I was able to try her out, just think its not my "thing." Probably due I me being a cleaver guy, but I was worth a shot.


I didn't sharpen her, just a few strops here and there, as I was happy with the edge it had.
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do you need my address, or is there a list with the knife?
 
It's on it's way Jacob, just left the post office. Should be there Friday.
 
looking forward to it! i have my 270 Heiji in fighting form, ready for a head to head. :)
 
That should be a good fight. Looking forward to your opinions.

I'm not are what it was, but I just wasn't feeling it. I think I'm just too partial to my bellyless knives. I did like the heft (sorta) and the low reactivity was a nice change, and low sticktion was a plus. It's probably in part that I'm used to cheaper knives or ODC. Looking forward to others opinions and feelings.
 
the Kato arrived. big knife! it has some edge chips, and it's quite dull, so i'll have to take care of that before i get a chance to use it, but i hope to do so this weekend.
 
I didn't sharpen it (don't trust myself,) but did notice the chips when I recieved it, forgot to mention, sorry, my bad. I must have dulled it pretty bad, lol.
 
Jmadams13 said:
I didn't sharpen it (don't trust myself,) but did notice the chips when I recieved it, forgot to mention, sorry, my bad. I must have dulled it pretty bad, lol.
Click to expand...

Don't feel bad, I beat on it pretty hard when I had it. Couldn't help myself. It just likes to work...
 
i went ahead and fixed it. didn't take long, Chosera 1k->Shapton 4k->Gesshin 8k. definitely more wear resistant than my Shig. very tall right hand bevel, which i raised ever so slightly to make up for removing the chips. the knife seems quite thick at the tip and edge compared to my 270 Heiji, and those things are instant suggesters of cutting performance, for me, but i'll keep an open mind until i get a chance to use it. here it is (in a bad, low light environment), next to the Heiji. the Heiji seems longer in the photo, but the edge length appears to be pretty identical.

click to embiggen
 
it would be very easy to make the tip very thin. here is my Heiji's tip, which this will be going against:

click to embiggen
 
Not to derail the thread, but I definitely need some help in regards to tip work. And do you mind posting a pic of the Kato's tip as well for comparison?
 
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