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240+ Knives and 1k Stones Are Hivemind Hype!
- Thread starter HumbleHomeCook
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I run a few types of stones around that grit.
Imanishi make a couple of 1000's, the orange one cuts super fast and and it's kind of a dud at polishing, the white one is soft and gives the darkest contrast between steels.
The old King 800 and 1200 are pretty much a 1000 stones but the 800 is soft and the 1200 is hard. Both are good for different purposes.
TKX 600 and 1500(stainless steel stones that no one talks about but are the best stones for almost any stainless) the 600 cuts like a king 800 and is the best at cleaning up scratch patterns from a hard thinning sesion. The 1500 finishes a cheap stainless steel edge beautifully.
@stringer has a great set up but the knowledge that is needed to understand and differentiate between natural stones is quite far down the rabbit hole so the law of averages means us shop guys say a 1000ish stone should be a good beginner stone, they learn to sharpen and want a sharper edge so the get a 3000-5000 and after awhile need to take out a chip then buy a 200-600 stone and the have a 3 stone set up.
Then they drink the TF/Shig/FM/Jnat
Cool-aid and they end up on this forum, discussing the pros and cons of 240mm knives and 1000 stones.
Made dinner with just 180mm Sugimoto, actually pretty nice, still wish a larger knife but I can understand the appeal, actually like it better than 210mm…
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Now use that 180 on a whole beef brisket.
Seriously, though...in a moment of weakness and affection, I picked up a 175mm Denka Gyuto on the BST, and I have to admit, I have a lot of affection for the little guy. Not when I am facing a whole beef brisket, though.
Luckily I have bunch of 270…
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Well of course you do.
180, with nothing else in the toolbox: bad
180, with a deep toolbox: good
Something I've realized is my gradual embracing of the Japanese philosophy of more specialized knives for the task. I pretty much always used the classic "chef's knife" for most everything with the occasional bump from a paring or serrated knife. But the chef's knife did pretty much everything.
But as I've gotten serious about this hobby, that slowly changed. I started still with a bent on 210's but kept gravitating back to shorter knives despite not using them most of life. I also knew I liked nakiris so that too lends itself, generally speaking, to shorter knives. Then I got a 240 suji and it just all seemed to click. That suji handles my longer knife needs but predominantly slicing as it is intended to do. From there I played with different knives and found the funayuki-bocho that I also love. It was an organic process but I really have changed to liking different knives for different tasks versus the more western approach of one knife for most all things.
Sure, I still do most if not all of a night's work with a nakiri but I have the others and other sizes if and when I need them and I just sort of naturally flow between them as the situation dictates.
But as I've gotten serious about this hobby, that slowly changed. I started still with a bent on 210's but kept gravitating back to shorter knives despite not using them most of life. I also knew I liked nakiris so that too lends itself, generally speaking, to shorter knives. Then I got a 240 suji and it just all seemed to click. That suji handles my longer knife needs but predominantly slicing as it is intended to do. From there I played with different knives and found the funayuki-bocho that I also love. It was an organic process but I really have changed to liking different knives for different tasks versus the more western approach of one knife for most all things.
Sure, I still do most if not all of a night's work with a nakiri but I have the others and other sizes if and when I need them and I just sort of naturally flow between them as the situation dictates.
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180 to 195 is my happy top size. After reading other replies to your post, I finally realized why I’ve been satisfied with smaller knives: no brisket carving going on here. My wife used to serve brisket on special occasions, but her tastes changed over the years, mostly because I’m doing much of the cooking.
I wanted to add that I think 55+ heel hight is also unnecessary (just saying 55 as a starting point, but I think you could reasonably argue it down to 50). My reasoning.
1. I find it uncomfortable to use such high heel heights (like 60s) but that is a personal preference)
2. I could see an argument for more heel hight = more lifespan, but lets be honest, for most of the casual user (not counting professionals) you have more knives than you have Time to use and you'll not sharpen it so much that you will reduce heel hight so much it will be a problem because you have so many knives to rotate through.
3. functionally - I'd love to hear some arguments against this - I don't see that it significantly adds a lot to the use?
1. I find it uncomfortable to use such high heel heights (like 60s) but that is a personal preference)
2. I could see an argument for more heel hight = more lifespan, but lets be honest, for most of the casual user (not counting professionals) you have more knives than you have Time to use and you'll not sharpen it so much that you will reduce heel hight so much it will be a problem because you have so many knives to rotate through.
3. functionally - I'd love to hear some arguments against this - I don't see that it significantly adds a lot to the use?
Me personally (granted I'm a "professional" user), I find 50-55mm (not a hard number, more of a guide for me) heel height as a sweet spot. Tall enough for good knuckle clearance, short enough to not feel like I should be using a cleaver.
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I like a tall heel, but I run into issues with cleavers when I can't easily reach over the top of the blade to keep a nice, neat stack together. I am okay with a Takeda, but anything too much taller, and I'm looking elsewhere when I have to dice.
ETA: Tall is great for scooping, but once a knife gets longer than about 250mm, the tall ones feel unwieldy to me.
ETA: Tall is great for scooping, but once a knife gets longer than about 250mm, the tall ones feel unwieldy to me.
Large bunches of home-grown (or otherwise) kale, dandelion greens, bok choy & chard come to mind. But 55+ is certainly not necessary. I handled my greens garden with a 45mm tall nakiri and a 50mm funayuki no problem. But I'm a home cook - if I were prepping lots of leafy stuff for lots of people, a taller knife might be nice.
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For me, length helps more with greens than height. Give me a large bunch of Kale, and I'll reach for my 270 Toyama, my (oversized) 270 KS, or something like that.
I don't like shorter heel knives, it's 50 or above for me. I don't mind a heavy taper/shortening of blade height as it goes but the taller heel feels a bit more comfortable for me, food doesn't touch my fingers as much and has more space to crawl up blade and fall off, also gives more space for a thick spine (my preference) to taper to a thin edge. To @HumbleHomeCook point about scoopability, tall heeled 240s/50s make usable scoops when a 210 is better off being set down for a bench scraper.
This big honkin Okubo is 57 mm at the heel and I can happily use the back half of knife as an effective scoop. I've always got a scraper nearby but it's nice to not have to set the knife down.
I've been getting some wicked edges off my morihei 4k paired with stropping on wood then felt. It's been liberating getting away from establishing my bevels on a 1k for every sharpening. Unneccesary unless your initial edge is really dull.
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That’s exactly my progression too. Either Morihei or SG 4K+wood+felt. Sometimes felt then wood, or maybe just one of them. Is there a proper order?
Twinzies!
I don't know if there's a proper order. You notice any difference?
My assumption is that the felt would polish a touch, and therefore goes last. Truthfully, I intended to buy a wood block with leather on it and accidentally bought a felt lined one instead. That lead to me attempting the stropping on the wood and felt instead of leather like I had initially planned. I really like it.
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oh where did you get the felt lined wood block from? I need to replace my felt strop. It’s gotten wet too many times and formed bubbles on the surface
Desert Rat
Senior Member
This knife size debate reminds me of the framing hammer debate back in the day. The big hammer and rigging axe guys always got more done, it was inevitable.
I like 240 gyutos, do most of my veg prep with a bunka. I've been debating whether I should dip my feet into the Nakiri pool or it would be redundant?
I use natural stones for just about everything and coarse stones only for heavy lifting so not often.
I like 240 gyutos, do most of my veg prep with a bunka. I've been debating whether I should dip my feet into the Nakiri pool or it would be redundant?
I use natural stones for just about everything and coarse stones only for heavy lifting so not often.
As a reformed bunka user turned nakiri user, I'd encourage a toe-dip. I really don't find myself missing the pointy tip much and I like being able to slide my off hand all the way out to the end of the spine for rock chopping and the like.
I'm also a reformed bunka user. Sold my 4 bunkas but kept all the nakiri and haven't really missed the tip, you can still do everything you need with the sharp rounded tip of the nakiri. If anything, I like them more than a short gyuto because the tip is lower/flatter so less arm lifting, and still very good for draw cuts.
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I don't love them for draw cuts on things like thin apple slices. Not sure a Bunka is ideal, but they work better for me in that case.
A little redundant maybe, but so is having 14 gyutos, and that hasn’t stopped many of us from owning them.
bahamaroot
Idiot Savant
I thought that was the mandatory minimum to get your "Enthusiast" badge?
For the large end, 180mm to ±195mm is prime territory here for daily use.
