240+ Knives and 1k Stones Are Hivemind Hype!

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Fun thread.
When I started my jknife journey I was for the most part a 270mm absolutist. Can’t really qualify now exactly why I felt that way but I’ll try anyway. More edge=more edge contact against the board during the cut , more cutting motion, longer cuts to be made, perhaps less approximation necessary, plowing all day is a lot of fun.
Overtime the real world caught up with me. Tiny kitchen after tiny kitchen had me reconsidering how to make the most of my space that was allotted. Much of the time I am cutting generic product that is maybe 2 inches long (lemons, Brussels) or perhaps 5 inches (bell peppers onions tomatoes) and I did start to feel a certain benefit for sizing down to suit the size of the product. Maybe it’s just me but I found more accuracy not using 270mm of edge to cut something 2-5inches long on the board.
Spent a decade in the 240mm space. Then Sakai knives (225-230mm) started to make me rethink even the efficiency of the 240mm size. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. Kato standard began to feel like an extension of my hand. Anything more felt unnecessary and almost baggage much of the time.
Now my last 2 purchases have been 210mm gyutos (Denka and Catcheside). Throw out all other attributes of those 2 knives…the smaller size helps me quite a bit do things with a more surgical approximation that I found more difficult to do with larger knives. Particularly anything that involves much more tip work.
Still bring 270mm, couple 240mm, couple 210mm to work daily as part of a rotation. Task at hand decides the size I want to use. 270mm definitely serves a roll still but I reach for it a lot less.
Not sure there is a good one size fits all knife size. But I do think the way one decides a gyuto size probably should have a lot to do with the size of the majority of stuff you’re cutting. Same way proper Deba and Yanagiba size is determined if I’m not mistaken.
 
In general I'm off the opinion that length - just like height, is mostly a personal preference... but.

-There's plenty of product that's large enough that a 210 (or even shorter) is just annoying to deal with it, whether you're cutting large bulbs of fennel, cabbage, lettuce, or piles of spinach. Yes that's relevant even in home - user proportions.
-Even on smaller stuff, the ergonomics are a lot better with a longer knife when the product is more than a few centimeters tall with a lot of cutting styles.
-Even on smaller stuff, there's just a lot more you can have under the knife, so even when you're doing a brunoise of just 1 carrot and 1 large onion the process becomes a lot more efficient. And not just when rough chopping, it's especially at the finer work that you really start saving time.
-One of the reasons 240 is a bit of a sweetspot recommendation is that it's just that little bit longer, while still making the tip easy to use, and not feeling too unwieldy for anyone 'sizing' up. In that sense 270 brings a lot of the same advantages 240 does over a 210, but the step just becomes too large for someone used to a typical 20 cm knife.
-A lot of this applies to 'getting 1 good knife'. If you have a whole quiver of knives, then yes, it doesn't matter if you grab a short knife when you have a meal that only requires cutting some shallots and garlic. But eventually you're going to cut some large items, at which point having at least 1 larger knife is really of benefit. Hence why getting the 240 makes sense when you're getting your first/only good knife. Longer is also always better when slicing.
-As others mentioned, pinch grip tends to shorten the blade. You can also modify grip to make tip work easier though.
-What people do on camera isn't necessarily representative of what's actually efficient, what's actually being done in a restaurant, or what they do when they're not sponsored product placement. Also keep in mind that for example high end chefs do very little to no cutting (that's what prep cooks are for), and the higher end you get, the more non-standard the prep.
-Just because you can do something with a smaller knife 'just fine' doesn't mean it's the efficient or long-term most ergonomical way to do it.
-Boning / filleting work is a different type of cutting so that's not necessarily indicative of a broader trend. I always prefer something 180-ish for boning / trimming, even though 240-250 is my sweetspot for a gyuto / chef knife.
-Better at rock chopping is not just about 'more lever', it's about having to life the handle less. This also applies to guillotine & glide type of techniques.
-Weight is IMO a competely seperate story seperate of length. Personally I rather have a lighter longer knife than a heavier shorter knife, but I think knife weights / grinds are just a seperate aspect of knife preferences.
-I've seen family members make entire meals with paring knives. I've also seen how unevenly and roughly cut their vegetables were, how they often resorted to cutting stuff larger than they should because they couldn't do it properly, and have experienced how it negatively affected a dish. I've also seen them take far longer than they would have if they knew how to properly use a knife. The fact that supermarkets here make fortunes selling pre-cut vegetables tells me that these family members I witnessed weren't an exception.

My thoughts about 'what the best beginner grit is minimal' but IMO finer grit edges not only push cut better, but also bruise the product less, which means is actually noticable - there's less fluid loss and less oxidation. I'm not sure where the sweet spot is (going really high means more work sharpening and might mean worse edge retention) but I'd definitly prefer 1k edges over really course like 320 or 500.
It's also relevant that a one-stone set is always seen as a starting point not an end point. The 1k is liked because it's something you can buy that does a well enough job to suffice as a one-stone solution, while also remaining relevant in a lineup of multiple stones. So it's easy to build upon.

On the whole body length / countertop height situation:
-I'm on the taller side (188-190, 6'2), and I guess limb length is reasonably proportional.
-My countertops are too low (90 cm, 35,4 inch) though I compensate a bit with a tall cutting board (6 cm / 2,4 inches). However my preferences still hold true at my girlfriend's place (96 cm / 37,8 inch countertops - 4 cm / 1,6 inch cutting board).
-My preferences are long yet I'm definitly in the low blade height camp. I prefer 45 mm - even on a 250 - over 55mm. 45-50 tall is basically my sweetspot.
-I've read several times, though I don't know how much water this holds, that elbow to wrist length is a decent indicator of what knife length you should pick.
 
I'm still trying to figure out the sharpening thing, so I won't respond to that.

As a home cook, I am most comfortable with, and most often reach for, a 210. I'm getting a bit more comfortable with 240s, but with 240s and especially 270s, I feel I have substantially less control when doing anything involving the tip. For most things, a 240 just feels like overkill. I don't need that much knife to chop an onion or to break down many of the products I cook with. I do like longer knives for slicing proteins, though.

Thinking of the folks I know who are decent home cooks, I don't know of any who own knives longer than 210 or 8", unless we're talking about a bread knife or a brisket slicer.
 
Also, another advantage of longer knives is that there's just a lot more space to work with to create a good profile. It's easier to balance flat spot, belly, curve and tip positioning.
 
Jovidah said:
[...] But eventually you're going to cut some large items, at which point having at least 1 larger knife is really of benefit. Hence why getting the 240 makes sense when you're getting your first/only good knife.
Click to expand...

Totally agree. A 270 might be overkill in many situations, but sometimes it's not. It's almost never too much knife.
 
HumbleHomeCook said:
To be clear, the intent wasn't so much to justify why you like longer knives but more so the blanket insistence they are the standard and everyone will just end up there.
Click to expand...
I guess I think there are good reasons to say the 240 is a kind of standard -- close to the 10" chef's... -- but that standard need not apply to everyone.
 
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HumbleHomeCook said:
To be clear, the intent wasn't so much to justify why you like longer knives but more so the blanket insistence they are the standard and everyone will just end up there.
Click to expand...
'The' standard should be a knife that can do just about everything. 240 simply does that better than a 210 because it's far better at tackling the larger ingredients, without really giving up anything in dealing with smaller stuff. The 240-250 range tends to be the range where most people can still comfortably use it for any task and that's accessible enough that it's not a big hurdle to get used to.
The reasons I mentioned aren't 'why I like them', they are objective advantages of a longer knife.
 
re the 1k stone

You should almost never need to go below a 1k stone if you are starting with a new knife. All you’re doing is wasting steel with 320s and the like. Even with a worn out knife, it just takes longer with a finer stone with no other downsides.

I do like the SG500 to SP2k to suita edge, but that’s not a beginner progression nor just one stone.
 
Certainly there will be a range of preferences based on counter size, caninet height over the counters if that’s where you cut, counter depth, hand size and of course personal preference.

Usually I’m using a bunka or gyuto in the 180mm - 210mm length, or a 165 - 180mm nakiri. The 180mm nakiri feels long, maybe because of the straight edge. My counters and cabinets next to the stove are somewhat limiting for long blades, though if I’m cutting at my island a 240-270 is no problem, I just have to get the food over to the stove. Recently I got a 195mm TF Denka and that’s a really nice length for my next-to-the-stove work. Most of the 240 and up blades that I’ve had felt overly blade heavy unless they were pretty thin.
 
Steve56 said:
Certainly there will be a range of preferences based on counter size, caninet height over the counters if that’s where you cut, counter depth, hand size and of course personal preference.

Usually I’m using a bunka or gyuto in the 180mm - 210mm length, or a 165 - 180mm nakiri. The 180mm nakiri feels long, maybe because of the straight edge. My counters and cabinets next to the stove are somewhat limiting for long blades, though if I’m cutting at my island a 240-270 is no problem, I just have to get the food over to the stove. Recently I got a 195mm TF Denka and that’s a really nice length for my next-to-the-stove work. Most of the 240 and up blades that I’ve had felt overly blade heavy unless they were pretty thin.
Click to expand...
195 denka sounds like a lot fun!
 
Anything over 210 mm is stupid when you have three square feet of work space. A 240mm is silly in my kitchen because it is so small. I honestly use a 165mm Bunka more than anything , for the same reason
 
Dan- said:
re the 1k stone

You should almost never need to go below a 1k stone if you are starting with a new knife. All you’re doing is wasting steel with 320s and the like. Even with a worn out knife, it just takes longer with a finer stone with no other downsides.

I do like the SG500 to SP2k to suita edge, but that’s not a beginner progression nor just one stone.
Click to expand...

Nah. A burr should jump up quick on a coarser stone so no need to waste metal if a person takes their time and studies what they are doing. More time on the stone means more opportunity for error. I've taught a lot of people how to sharpen and quite often on a Crystolon or India stone. One or two passes with a marked edge on the coarser stone reveals their angle quickly. Easy to remark, adjust and try again. So long as you're not leaning into the blade you won't take off too much metal. I know that gets said all the time but it is just not my experience so long as they get some education before starting. And they should be doing that regardless of the grit.

Coarser stones also handle a really nice range of steels, including softer stainless, without too much fuss. I know a 1k isn't too bad but still not as good as a coarser stone.

When I went to crime prevention school, they taught us how to pick locks so we would understand how vulnerable they are. They taught us on filing cabinet locks. For one, they are simpler and for two, they pop out when you get them. Instant gratification that was rewarding and encouraged us to take the next steps.

:)
 
A strong argument in favor of recommending a newbie starting point of 210 is that it lowers the barrier to entry and/or allows someone to try a higher quality knife. Plus, when a 210 is too short, so is a 240. The proper solution is a 210 and a 270 of course.
 
Jovidah said:
In general I'm off the opinion that length - just like height, is mostly a personal preference... but.

-There's plenty of product that's large enough that a 210 (or even shorter) is just annoying to deal with it, whether you're cutting large bulbs of fennel, cabbage, lettuce, or piles of spinach. Yes that's relevant even in home - user proportions.
-Even on smaller stuff, the ergonomics are a lot better with a longer knife when the product is more than a few centimeters tall with a lot of cutting styles.
...
-As others mentioned, pinch grip tends to shorten the blade. You can also modify grip to make tip work easier though.
Click to expand...

These really are what's relevant for me liking 225+ gyutos. I won't try to talk someone out of a 210 (or even 180, I guess) as a primary knife if that's what they're comfortable with, but if someone's on the fence about 210 vs 240 and uses a pinch grip (or wants to), I'll point towards the high end (or at least a Sakai 240).

Stones - agree that a SG500+SP2k or something would be a better choice than a 1k, someone should really make a decent combo stone in that range so it can be a sensible one and done buy for normies (until they realize they need to flatten it...). I rarely use my 1k anymore except to erase lower grit scratches in a progression so I'm not particularly attached to it as a recommendation. But I'd hesitate to tell someone to only buy a coarser stone to use with their first nice knife as they're learning to sharpen, seems like a recipe for letting it get thick BTE quick, messing up the profile, or getting deep scratches on the blade face as someone's getting the hang of it.
 
Lots of 240 defenders here (no surprise). I’m in the 200mm or less camp. Most stuff cut is under 4”, and going over 200mm is not good for tip work. A 240 on garlic? I use a tall 120mm on cauliflower and its precision is awesome.

I find little use for a 1k stone on edges. 500 for cheap stainless and 2K+ for anything decent. Don’t let stuff get dull!
 
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Home amateur's 2 cent: 2x 240s and one 210 so far, I just got my first 270, and pretty sure I won't go back. Reasons:
  1. Medium to large hands for me means I prefer more heel height and it's hard(er) to find something "acceptable" in the 240 category. Looking at old stock, seems like they made them much higher back than (I dream of an affordable 60-70mm)
  2. Guess it depends on the grind, but my new 270 has such a nice taper from robust to very thin, I can use the tip for precise work and the back for aggressive chopping if needed; it can do it all, far more versatility in one blade.
  3. The longer edge means I can slice without pressure, even if the edge is not that sharp (so it can still handle tomatoe skin). This increases enjoyment
  4. Getting a (this) longer edge also "guarantees" a more generous flat spot
  5. You loose some of the blade length just with pinch grip anyway
  6. Gentler edge curve is far more versatile, unless you do rock chopping
Downside of course, is the price, and some say you need to be more careful, because that much blade can get away from you. Although I don't understand this one yet

Edit: I should mention, that my opinion thus far has changed with every new knife I got :D
 
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