An inquisitive cautionary tale

[daveb]

Well said Dave. Some of the makers would do well to run their business like a business. One of the reasons Haburn and Bloodroot (to name only the first two to come to mind) have built good reputations relatively quickly is doing just that.

 

[mr drinky]

Thanks for the write up and cautionary tale. I think it is good that people know that dealing with custom makers, artisans, and forum members in general often poses some risk. I've lost deposits, a lot of specialty wood on one unrealized project, an Ealy knife that I loaned out, I never got my Eamon knife, and I have had problems with some very respected vendors on this site that cost me money and stress. With that said, letting go of these instances has been best for me, as the positives still so outweigh the negatives IMO. In one case I lost hundreds of dollars on a project when a person ran into health problems. Another time, long delays just meant I had to wright off ever cashing in on something and plus that person was going through hard times. In Eamon's case, I knew him, respected him, and rooted for him but also appreciate (now) the situation he may have been in with his family and new kids.

Other times, I have been at fault. Will Catchside has followed up on a long-ago paid-for project that I am sure he would like to get off his books, but my crazy taking-care-of-kids-moving-homes life has meant I rarely have time to follow up on it myself. Sorry Will But for some reason, forum members who don't return lent knives still piss me the fvck off.

Anyhow, I think your post is a good public service announcement to those making transactions with custom makers and other artisans. Eventually, though, you will get burnt on some projects/transactions in this informal knife economy run through a community forum. It will happen. And just as ecchef said above, even the best, most respected vendors on this sight might eventually have problems. We've already seen this several times, and it will happen again.

So be aware, but I also wouldn't let it scare anyone away from taking some risks for some amazing product. For all the knives I have lent people, only one has gone missing. To stop lending because of that one knife would be crazy and defeat the spirit of this forum. And if I didn't take a risk on some makers in their early days, I would not have some awesome knives.

Karring

 

[MAS4T0]

Who's to say which vendor is an "assured safe bet"?

Ok, I mis-worded that.

I was meaning that it seemed to me that if someone didn't know which vendor was being discussed, it could potentially affect other vendors (as they wouldn't know which one to be concerned about).

It's a small pool, so it should probably be a case of either stating only that it was a knife-maker or giving the name. I don't see the relevance of it being started as a vendor here other than to narrow the possibilities to that small pool.

Good people and businesses occasionally fall on hard times even after many years of stellar performance. Who would have ever guessed that GM would meet its demise the way it did? **** happens and sometimes it doesn't get made right. Is that OK?...no, it's not. But it also doesn't make someone Satan incarnate.

That's neither what I said or what I meant to imply, if it came across that way I'm sorry and I didn't realise that I was so inarticulate... I'll have to stop posting from my phone after bed time. I was trying to make the same general point that you are here, and I'd put the problems down to an over-eagerness to please and offering their work unsustainably cheaply in some cases.

This is what I wrote above the part which you quoted:

Nobody would intentionally under-deliver, but it can be very difficult to not over-promise until you have the experience to really know your capacity.

...The small margins would be a cause of concern for me as it does limit the maker's ability to stand behind the product before making a significant loss. I'd assume that some are too eager to please and consequently end up with a huge backlog and haven't budgeted time for admin and customer service in the rates they're charging, so something has to give.

 

[alterwisser]

Well said Dave. Some of the makers would do well to run their business like a business. One of the reasons Haburn and Bloodroot (to name only the first two to come to mind) have built good reputations relatively quickly is doing just that.

+1 - have not received either knife (both are not coming up for 5-6 and over 25 months respectively), but they do an outstanding job communicating and taking your suggestions...

 

[marc4pt0]

I've had a pretty overwhelmingly large amount of members here reach out to me via email, text and pm showing support. And it's nice to see as much support here in this thread as well.

I think it's important for threads like these to exist and remain active, so outside of thanking all those that have posted/reached out, I also want to thank the mods here. Iu understand this isn't easy, and believe me it sucks on this end too. I would much prefer keeping with my usual go-lucky-happy-posts-here-and-there self, but dealings like this need to be addressed. Not just regarding vendors/makers, but also forum members here as well. If Johnny Six Pack sold Tommy Housecoat a knife (or something knife related) through this forum, and failed to be honest about it or simply just didn't deliver in a timely fashion (or at all), Johnny Six Pack needs to be called out. But only if all other means/attempts were made to no avail.

I just believe that members here need to be aware of dishonest going ons. We're all in this forum together, some more than others, but boil it down its simply another internet pocket full of strangers sharing a common interest. Can it ever be 100% "safe"? Most likely not, but it doesn't hurt to try a bit here and there.

And if anyone is wondering, I was that kid that broke up fights inside/outside of school. If I saw others picking on a kid I had no fear jumping in the middle. Sometimes it went well, sometimes it didn't. But I always jumped in. Those were different times though, when the only thing you brought to a scrap were your words and fists.

 

[Neens]

That is a terrible way to do business. I've only dealt with 2 people in the knife world, one retailer and one maker, both have been great. I did have a similar experience in the custom cue world. 8 weeks turned into 16 months and the communication was pretty much nonexistent. But that's why forums like this are important, so other can know what to expect.

 

[chinacats]

Just a quick question on the original knife. Was the problem with the handle or perhaps a cracked blade? Just curious because the handle would be a fairly obvious quick fix while a cracked blade would be a different problem altogether.

Sorry to see this turning the way it has...I have personally had nothing but positive experiences with the same maker and you are definitely a highly respected member with tons of experience but sometimes **** happens. Guessing there is going to be another side to the story and to me it would make sense (if I was mad enough to post) to go ahead and post a thread in his subforum just to see if you get some type of response you can/would be happy with to move forward--I think this may be fair to each of you? If you are giving up on anything getting resolved then it still may be the right approach so that others can make a decision for themselves about how to proceed with spending their money.

As an aside, the only issue I had with work not being done at all (by a different maker) was resolved to my satisfaction after posting in his subforum...it was truly a last resort (and it bothered me to make the post) but maybe it is the way to proceed at this point?

 

[aboynamedsuita]

I have personally had nothing but positive experiences with the same maker

Likewise for me as well, I also agree that there must be a bit more to the story. Big thanks to ecchef for ensuring that this thread stays civil.

 

[marc4pt0]

I always say there's 3 sides to every story. His, your's and the actual facts. What connects them is a thin piece of string.

I chose not to post in this maker's sub forum for 2 reasons: 1) it still gives him a fair opportunity to resolve it while staying somewhat anonymous and 2) I wasn't sure how long the thread would survive before it was removed.

Back to this maker's side/version of what happened- I 100% agree that he has his side. And I 100% agree that anyone reading "my" side should keep this in mind. It wouldn't be fair otherwise.

As far as resolving it goes, I honestly don't know if this is still an option. Another member here, whom I think is good acquaintances (?) with Dave, shot me some texts yesterday offering a possible reason for this maker to rescind his original offer. This maker has publicly spoken about his hardships, and he has discussed them with me in pm a few times. I get it and I had hoped things would get better for him. Never do I "wish bad things" on others, and I'm just not the kind of guy to kick another while they're down.

In the texts he proposed the possibility that perhaps the maker realized that he could not, in his current state of finances, afford to hold up his initial offering. And perhaps it was just his pride that had prevented him from sorting things out in a better way. He then offered his "in between the lines" reading which boils down to the maker may be too broke to make this knife without at least bringing in enough money to cover time and some expenses. Which may explain why the maker made his "only offer" of crediting the original purchase price of $350 towards one of his new knives.

If this maker would have taken the time to chat with me about this possibility I most certainly would have worked with him on it. In fact I was trying to start this very conversation with him regarding another knife he had sold over a year ago. In all honesty though, I'm quite sure I wasn't super clear when trying to broach this discussion with him, and he didn't give me too much of an opening to chat more. I'm obviously a bit of a wordy guy when it comes to typing, so I'm sure that didn't help either.

Hopefully this maker and the original seller can come to an agreement where they both come out on top. As for him and I? Who knows. I remember him making a comment in another thread several months ago that was started by a member who was displeased about the service he received from an online vendor. He was frustrated about the vendor's lack of communication and response. In the end, the member came around to kind of apologizing for being too aggressive too quickly, and the maker (referred to in my thread) then came on to say "it takes a real man to admit when he's wrong". I couldn't agree more.

 

[panda]

how about he makes you two handles instead? that can't take that much time since he does so many..

 

[MAS4T0]

In the texts he proposed the possibility that perhaps the maker realized that he could not, in his current state of finances, afford to hold up his initial offering. And perhaps it was just his pride that had prevented him from sorting things out in a better way. He then offered his "in between the lines" reading which boils down to the maker may be too broke to make this knife without at least bringing in enough money to cover time and some expenses. Which may explain why the maker made his "only offer" of crediting the original purchase price of $350 towards one of his new knives.

It seems like it does all come down to the incredibly low margins that these guys are operating on.

I was recently speaking to a knife-maker to hash out the details for a commission. I was bracing myself for the pricing, when he got back to me with a quote for less than half of what I was expecting; I've never seen any of his work actually come up for sale and presumed it was MUCH more expensive.

I'm always dubious to ask for any kind of recompense from a craftsman, as it's an entirely different ball park to mass produced products. If you buy an item of mass produced jewellery (for example) and there is a defect, they can just give you another one with no problems as in that industry a product sold for $100 will often not cost any more than $20 to produce.

When dealing with a craftsman though, it is likely that an item sold for the same $100 could represent over $50 in costs and overheads and then the other $50 is to pay a relatively mediocre wage, from which the guy has to support himself. That means that it's a $100 cost price with no profit margin. If he's then required to replace an item for free, he's making a huge loss as he sold you the blade at cost price! That's significantly cheaper than the B2B cost of purchasing goods when you're doing so in bulk and you are taking the hit for defective ones.

This is what I was alluding to in my comment about M.S's. It seems that with few exceptions that they are the only ones who are able to charge enough for a knife that they can actually include a profit margin, which gives them much more freedom to discard a knife which is less than perfect or to offer a free replacement while still being able to pay the bills and put food on the table. But it shouldn't come down to the knife-maker needing to be a martyr and make all the sacrifices, in my view, if you want this kind of customer service you can choose to pay for it in the price of the knife - each failed blade and each defective blade needs to have it's costs covered in the price of the blades which are sold. If you want to pay well in excess of $1k for a completely safe bet, where you're giving the knife maker enough rope to enable him to discard any blades which are less than perfect while still making a living, then you have that option. On the other hand though, if we want to be able to buy US made knives with good F&F for under $500 then we as a community need to be willing to support the makers, otherwise if we want exemplary customer service I wouldn't think that many makers could afford to stay in business if selling their blades for less than $1k (for monosteel).

 

[CrisAnderson27]

It seems like it does all come down to the incredibly low margins that these guys are operating on.

I was recently speaking to a knife-maker to hash out the details for a commission. I was bracing myself for the pricing when he quoted me less than half of what I was expecting; I've never seen any of his work actually come up for sale and presumed it was MUCH more expensive.

I'm always dubious to ask for any kind of recompense from a craftsman, as it's an entirely different ball park to mass produced products. If you buy an item of mass produced jewellery (for example) and there is a defect, they can just give you another one with no problems as in that industry a product sold for $100 will often not cost any more than $20 to produce.

When dealing with a craftsman though, it is likely that an item sold for the same $100 could represent over $50 in costs and overheads and then the other $50 is to pay a relatively mediocre wage, from which the guy has to support himself. That means that it's a $100 cost price with no profit margin. If he's then required to replace an item for free, he's making a huge loss as he sold you the blade at cost price! That's significantly cheaper than the B2B cost of purchasing goods when you're doing so in bulk and you are taking the hit for defective ones.

This is what I was alluding to in my comment about M.S's. It seems that with few exceptions that they are the only ones who are able to charge enough for a knife that they can actually include a profit margin, which gives them much more freedom to discard a knife which is less than perfect or to offer a free replacement while still being able to pay the bills and put food on the table. But it shouldn't come down to the knife-maker needing to be a martyr and make all the sacrifices, in my view, if you want this kind of customer service you can choose to pay for it in the price of the knife - each failed blade and each defective blade needs to have it's costs covered in the price of the blades which are sold. If you want to pay well in excess of $1k for a completely safe bet, where you're giving the knife maker enough rope to enable him to discard any blades which are less than perfect while still making a living, then you have that option. On the other hand though, if we want to be able to buy US made knives with good F&F for under $500 then we as a community need to be willing to support the makers, otherwise if we want exemplary customer service I wouldn't think that many makers could afford to stay in business if selling their blades for less than $1k (for monosteel).

That's an interesting perspective for sure...and an honest/factual one. The trick for makers is to establish themselves thoroughly enough though, and put enough in savings...to be able to take the hit on a lost knife without issues. In the early stages it's likely nearly impossible...but once you're established you could just keep enough in reserve/savings...to cover yourself for the loss of a knife or four. Call it a trust account for yourself. It's your pay day if either you, or someone else screws things up. In this way your name remains intact, and everyone stays happy.

I owned an underground/utility construction company for a number of years. In this industry, the margin is exceedingly small, but...we offered a 2yr warranty on our work. The industry standard had become 1yr (thanks to illegal immigrants flooding the work force and the resultant drop in quality). Due to our hiring practices and standards, we only had to honor that warranty twice. Once during our time in business, and once after we closed our doors. You see, I had kept an account open with the required funds to cover general warranty work, for two years after we closed our doors. The reason for this was so that if I ever decided to start up again, my business contacts would not only remember my warranty, but also remember that I honored it regardless of my personal circumstances. When, a year after we shut down my customer called my cell to ask for redline drawings of our pipe install so he could hire a contractor to do the repair work, and I showed up with a hand picked crew and rental equipment and repaired the damage (which was caused by flooding, not poor quality work), the general contractor was literally stunned. He actually offered me a job as a project superintendent lol.

That is how it should always be. It's just good business I would guess. That said, personal businesses are much more difficult to handle, and I think too many people try to make a career out of a hobby without understanding some of those liabilities. I know one maker who is struggling with the 'personal' business aspects of turning his knifemaking into an actual company, though he has prior experience as a business owner.

The two things are very different, and it can absolutely be difficult.

On the pricing in general...the market will only bear what it will bear . If a maker is already near the top for whatever kind of knives he makes, it wouldn't be fair for him to charge double to one customer who understands the costs involved lol, and then half that for those that don't .

 

[MAS4T0]

Just to be clear, I'm not saying that it's acceptable to not reply to e-mails from a customer who has paid you a deposit or to go back on your word.

Rather that we as a community need to be reasonable with our expectations and recognise that "poor" customer service is not a symptom of a personal failure of character, but simply an over-eagerness to please everyone and the market not currently being able to support the prices needed to allow for it.

I'm sure all vendors would like to devote a significant proportion of their time to speaking to their customers (I know that I love speaking to mine), or to hire a secretary/ book keeper to keep all the admin in check. Unfortunately though it would seem that most guys need to spend all their time actually making knives (or work another job) in order to bring in enough money to support themselves.

 

[MAS4T0]

On the pricing in general...the market will only bear what it will bear . If a maker is already near the top for whatever kind of knives he makes, it wouldn't be fair for him to charge double to one customer who understands the costs involved lol, and then half that for those that don't .

I do completely understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that I feel as though I'm robbing the guy! :bat:

 

[MontezumaBoy]

I have been in a couple of similar situations (not knife related) and, in the end, made sure the supplier was compensated to "my" satisfaction - probably very silly to many but I like to sleep well at night and regardless of the beginning of a relationship the steps one takes during it are far more representative on one's character - just my $0.02

I do completely understand this, but it doesn't change the fact that I feel as though I'm robbing the guy! :bat:

 

[larrybard]

In order for this thread to remain open, vendors will not be called out by name unless they (vendors) themselves post and become part of the discussion. Until then, any inquiries regarding the identities of vendors should be through p/ms. Thanks.

Am I correct that this means one shouldn't criticize any vendor by name -- but it's okay to refer to a vendor by name if saying something positive?

 

[ecchef]

No, not at all, larrybard.
Criticism, if constructive, is just as important as praise and won't be restricted to sub-forums. A very personal and specific topic such as we have here is quite a different subject.
One the reasons that the vendor sub-forums were set up was to have a place where issues between vendors and customers/members could be discussed in a more, for lack of a better word, 'contained' arena. There are many instances of vendor issues arising in the general forums, where it degrades into offensive/defensive arguing, people choosing sides, and (worst of all) comparison with other vendors. One of the guidelines of the vendor sub-forum is that only that vendors products/services/etc. should be discussed there.
For what it's worth, the OP of this thread showed remarkable restraint and composure in presenting a very sensitive issue, and the responses have also been objective and tempered. That is why this thread is still open.
Speaking as a Moderator, it is very time consuming and draining to have to clean up a thread full of innuendo and disparaging commentary. That's why I urged that vendors not be named in this thread. Sorry for not being clear. It's been a tough week at work.

 

[marc4pt0]

Should I have started this thread in the vendor's sub-forum? I wasn't too sure where to stick this, and as I mentioned before, I was hesitant in doing so for a couple reasons. I don't mind if it needs to be moved, though I think it might change the tone here a bit. That may not be an entirely good thing, or I may be wrong.
But if I did start this thread in the wrong location, I do apologize.

 

[larrybard]

. . . . I never do business with custom makers here anymore. That is one way to arbitrate. I just got tired of the ********.

I understand your own decision, but it seems to me to be [mis?]interpreted, broadly, as an implied condemnation of all custom makers. I have admittedly much more limited experience than many, many others on KKF, and as others have already observed some people have had no problems with specific knife makers and other people have had nothing but horrible experiences with the very same knife makers ("YMMV"), but when I think, for example, of what a pleasure it's been to deal with someone like Cris Anderson, and the incredible professionalism and integrity with which he has conducted himself, it troubles me when I read someone saying that they will never do business with any custom makers anymore due to the ******** they have run into with some bad apples. I realize you're probably just describing how you personally have decided to protect yourself against another frustrating experience (or possibly worse -- financial loss), but some readers might read it -- as well as this thread generally -- and conclude that they ought not to patronize most custom knife makers. And I think that would be a shame. Like most dealings in real life, there's always risk, but one tries to at least greatly reduce it with a bit of due diligence and selectivity.

Sorry for ramling on a bit.

 

[Cheeks1989]

I understand your own decision, but it seems to me to be [mis?]interpreted, broadly, as an implied condemnation of all custom makers. I have admittedly much more limited experience than many, many others on KKF, and as others have already observed some people have had no problems with specific knife makers and other people have had nothing but horrible experiences with the very same knife makers ("YMMV"), but when I think, for example, of what a pleasure it's been to deal with someone like Cris Anderson, and the incredible professionalism and integrity with which he has conducted himself, it troubles me when I read someone saying that they will never do business with any custom makers anymore due to the ******** they have run into with some bad apples. I realize you're probably just describing how you personally have decided to protect yourself against another frustrating experience (or possibly worse -- financial loss), but some readers might read it -- as well as this thread generally -- and conclude that they ought not to patronize most custom knife makers. And I think that would be a shame. Like most dealings in real life, there's always risk, but one tries to at least greatly reduce it with a bit of due diligence and selectivity.

Sorry for ramling on a bit.

Nailed it.

 

[XooMG]

Should I have started this thread in the vendor's sub-forum? I wasn't too sure where to stick this, and as I mentioned before, I was hesitant in doing so for a couple reasons. I don't mind if it needs to be moved, though I think it might change the tone here a bit. That may not be an entirely good thing, or I may be wrong.
But if I did start this thread in the wrong location, I do apologize.

I think you handled it and posted it appropriately. This is tall grass and it's good to remind folks there are snakes.

 

[toddnmd]

I understand your own decision, but it seems to me to be [mis?]interpreted, broadly, as an implied condemnation of all custom makers.

I don't see it as a condemnation of all custom makers. It's not clear how many bad experiences this is based on, how much money was involved, whether it was the poster's own experience vs. hearing things from others or some combination, etc.

Everyone has their own threshold for how much risk is too much. Seth may have hit his limit, but other folks with have different experiences and tolerances for risk. Plus, each transaction will ultimately be decided on individually (even if factoring in personal experience and reported history), so some people might enter in to some type of arrangement with a maker who has an impeccable reputation.

I'm thankful this thread is here, and that there have been many constructive and illustrative responses. It's important information to have out in this community, and everyone should keep in mind there are risks. At this point, I wouldn't go for a custom for a maker who wanted payment up front, or even a significant part, like half. I'd be very careful to see what type of feedback is out there in terms of communication, reliability, timeliness, etc. Also good to be very clear in communications and saving records. In the end, if a buyer has given money and has an issue, I'm not sure how much recourse there generally is. Yes, some public posting might have an impact, but might not.

For the record, in virtually every case where I've heard of problems, I think the maker has entered into the agreement with good and honest intentions. But sometimes the issues of life, whether family, health, business, etc. have become a significant impediment to fulfilling the order.

 

[spoiledbroth]

Without condemning anybody I think it's sort of an inherent risk, in buying something made by what are (in the best sense) mom and pop businesses as opposed to buying something from Yoshihiro, Sakai Teriyaki etc.

 

[chefcomesback]

Without condemning anybody I think it's sort of an inherent risk, in buying something made by what are (in the best sense) mom and pop businesses as opposed to buying something from Yoshihiro, Sakai Teriyaki etc.

Yet I have seen many blades from the well know Japanese makers that looked like they were ground by Ray Charles , thicker behind the edge than a hatchet and not so cheap at $400 with machine finish and cheap ho wood handle . I don't get how this is turning into "why Japanese are more cheaper " subject .
If I had 2.5k to spend on knives I would rather buy a Burke San mai than shig yo kitaeji , just because something is made difficult by the maker for the lack of equipment they can't justify charging more right ???
There is a bad customer service and it has been told here , why condemn all custom makers ? Same person also shared a good example of good business practice by another custom maker ( Cris Anderson and him sticking to his quote )

 

[chiffonodd]

Sakai Teriyaki

lolol :spin chair:

 

[TurboScooter]

Without condemning anybody I think it's sort of an inherent risk, in buying something made by what are (in the best sense) mom and pop businesses as opposed to buying something from Yoshihiro, Sakai Teriyaki etc.

I thought I was in the Cooking With Soy Sauce thread for a second.

 

[spoiledbroth]

Yet I have seen many blades from the well know Japanese makers that looked like they were ground by Ray Charles , thicker behind the edge than a hatchet and not so cheap at $400 with machine finish and cheap ho wood handle . I don't get how this is turning into "why Japanese are more cheaper " subject .
If I had 2.5k to spend on knives I would rather buy a Burke San mai than shig yo kitaeji , just because something is made difficult by the maker for the lack of equipment they can't justify charging more right ???
There is a bad customer service and it has been told here , why condemn all custom makers ? Same person also shared a good example of good business practice by another custom maker ( Cris Anderson and him sticking to his quote )

No! I didn't mean to slag off anybody. My point was more that your average local corner store has a reduced ability to make good on product warranty than a big national department store. I think shig and Kato and such are quite different as most of their knives are purchased through third part vendors who live and die by how returns are handled. My assumption is based primarily on the idea that the big firms have more money in the bank than the average custom maker and can therefore eat the cost of replacing a defective knife without any worry. In an ideal world a maker would put himself in the poorhouse protecting his reputation. However I would rather everyone on this forum were out seven hundred bucks if it meant keeping a craftsman off the streets. I am sorry if it offends people but I believe if you are buying knives in that price range or higher you are either significantly more well off than the craftsman or financially irresponsible.

I also did not mean to imply a dichotomy between Japan and the rest of the world in terms of cutlery. I just mention yoshihiro and Sakai Takayuki as they are big outfits that I believe sell a lot of rebranded knives. They are also fairly ubiquitous brands where "better than shun" cutlery is concerned.

Glad people caught the takayuki joke.

I'm not saying either is better but economy of scale is a legitimate thing. So is the agility of a small (custom) maker. Additionally quality control I believe can work either way, more hands = more error, more eyes = increased capacity to notice said errors. However it's hard to have twenty people all on the same page about what constitutes a "pass" from a qc standpoint.

 

[malexthekid]

No! I didn't mean to slag off anybody. My point was more that your average local corner store has a reduced ability to make good on product warranty than a big national department store. I think shig and Kato and such are quite different as most of their knives are purchased through third part vendors who live and die by how returns are handled. My assumption is based primarily on the idea that the big firms have more money in the bank than the average custom maker and can therefore eat the cost of replacing a defective knife without any worry. In an ideal world a maker would put himself in the poorhouse protecting his reputation. However I would rather everyone on this forum were out seven hundred bucks if it meant keeping a craftsman off the streets. I am sorry if it offends people but I believe if you are buying knives in that price range or higher you are either significantly more well off than the craftsman or financially irresponsible.

I also did not mean to imply a dichotomy between Japan and the rest of the world in terms of cutlery. I just mention yoshihiro and Sakai Takayuki as they are big outfits that I believe sell a lot of rebranded knives. They are also fairly ubiquitous brands where "better than shun" cutlery is concerned.

Glad people caught the takayuki joke.

I'm not saying either is better but economy of scale is a legitimate thing. So is the agility of a small (custom) maker. Additionally quality control I believe can work either way, more hands = more error, more eyes = increased capacity to notice said errors. However it's hard to have twenty people all on the same page about what constitutes a "pass" from a qc standpoint.

I think you are wrong on two spots. Firstly, generally you will find mom and pop stores have the best returns policy as they live and die by their reputation. Big companies couldn't give a rats a$$ if you got one of the 10% below QA levels (though there are always exception).

Secondly, we pay significant money for these knives because they are made by craftsmen and we want the best of quality. Being a craftsmen isn't a cope to say "ohh i don't get much profit from these so deal with it" if that is the case then charge more or did a way to minimise costs or realise that, as Cris said, it is actually a hobby and you need to find another source of income

 

[spoiledbroth]

I think you are wrong on two spots. Firstly, generally you will find mom and pop stores have the best returns policy as they live and die by their reputation. Big companies couldn't give a rats a$$ if you got one of the 10% below QA levels (though there are always exception).

This is a bit of a red herring, because to be analogous the mom and pop shop would need to be a manufacturer of products, however on a small "craftsman" scale. I have no idea what a margin is on a custom kitchen knife, I suppose it's the kind of work where most of the sale price is actually dictated by the skilled labour of one or a few people. If we take these assumptions to be true I don't think it's a stretch to me that a "bad batch" could literally cripple an enterprise of the described size. In addition, it may only be anecdotal but I have never had any problems returning a product on warranty, nor have I ever heard of such issues with regard to consumer electronics and the like.

Secondly, we pay significant money for these knives because they are made by craftsmen and we want the best of quality. Being a craftsmen isn't a cope to say "ohh i don't get much profit from these so deal with it" if that is the case then charge more or did a way to minimise costs or realise that, as Cris said, it is actually a hobby and you need to find another source of income

I think the reason people purchase custom knives is actually pretty varied. There are people I'm sure who submit foolish designs who need to subsequently be "talked down" by a craftsman, as in the case of a poor idea for a tattoo. What's more quality and performance are highly subjective and relative to the use of the knife, the experience of the user, and I suppose a few other factors. What I'm trying to say is that a great cutter with good f&f to me is probably vastly different to somebody like marc4pt0 who is vastly more skilled and experienced than myself, and has a knife collection the size and quality of which put my own to shame.

I'm not sure I buy into the "if you're selling records in the lobby it's a hobby" ethos. I don't personally claim to know the financial particulars of anyone in my life, on the internet, my relatives. What I do think is if you're gifted at making something and want to share that with the world, who are we to rain on your parade? Now, if you're going to be dishonest in your dealings, that's another matter entirely.

 

[marc4pt0]

I'm glad to see Mert post here, as he is another gentleman in this industry. I hit him up for a knife earlier last year and he quoted me "roughly three months" (if I recall correctly). Our communications were fluid and on point. Once again, this is another situation where you not only gain another great cutting tool, but you also gain another friend. Mert Tansu listened to what I was looking for and interpreted it perfectly. Fast fwd roughly three months or so, I had a new knife. It was almost perfect. Through some use I had noticed 2 small issues: some food sticking and the handle had started to come loose a teeny tiny bit. I was reluctant to reach out to him as I have had a couple sour dealings with other makers, and I didn't want this dealing to be another. The knife, with its 2 small issues, was still an amazing knife and became a heavy user in my day to day. But I finally sacked up and reached out to Mert. His response was spot on. I had told him and showed him pictures of how heavily used his knife was in such a short time, yet still his response was one to be talked about.

In short, here's a knife maker that exudes passion. You almost think he doesn't care about the money, like this is his way to maintain inner peace instead. Mert mentioned he had tried a different glue on his handles and that explained why it had started to feel loose. He said I could keep the knife until he had a replacement ready, but the downside was the profile he made for me wasn't his regular style and it would be hard to match without the current knife present to act as a "stencil". I really liked this profile so I sent it back. Mert even refund the return shipping. He made a new knife and sent it back.

Mert is absolutely one of a few knife makers here that 100% wants their work to be with you for a lifetime, and I 100% suspect he'll cover that knife the whole time. I say "suspect" as he's never committed to a lifetime warranty, but I just feel like he's got me covered through our correspondence.

Him and the aforementioned Cris Anderson. Two solid gents among others in the custom knife making world here.

I'd also like to add that I'm concerned some readers here may, after reading this thread, decide to "never" buy a custom knife from our fellow makers here. That would be a sad loss for themselves. We have a lot of talent here, just do your research. Dig in deep and read about other's reactions and interactions with the knife makers. And read each negative comment with a grain of salt, including mine. Make good choices and make a list of questions. Contact makers you're interested in. Start a "relationship" with them, but keep in mind these fine craftsmen are most likely busy and aren't on the hunt for a new besty. By relationship I mean build a foundation of trust where you have asked your questions and received answers you hoped to get. If not, try another maker. Some gents here will only "customize" their work so much, and this may not suit you. Keep in mind, these guys basically have a "recipe" they use. It works for them. If they stray too far from this recipe it may make a knife that won't work for them, and become a potential loss. Maybe not immediately. Maybe in time the knife/handle/material may fail. It's hard to cover a "warranty" on something they were asked to step outside their comfort zone on.