An inquisitive cautionary tale

[marc4pt0]

I can't argue, I hope I can do this, I'll try.

Thanks

Crap. My apologies. The 2 previous posts were submitted before I saw this. I'm not a fast typer.

 

[jacko9]

Deleting post since I didn't read all other posting.

 

[mikedtran]

I have actually followed this thread closely, after reading all of this the one thing I would like to say is:

I really hope at the end of this that Chuckles is made whole/happy with the outcome.

I also realize that I'm sure for all parties involved this has been a taxing/draining experience and really hope this as a whole doesn't scare people from working with custom makers. I have worked with two custom makers to date and both have been amazing. A big part of the custom maker experience in my mind is learning from the custom maker (for myself at least) and I have to say that it has accelerated my understanding of knife geometry/performance significantly.

 

[chinacats]

TLDR, what Mikedtran just said...Chuckles is the only one that has been hurt here and it appears as though he is being taken care of...everything else doesn't matter.

Marc and Dave, this is going nowhere (coming from someone not involved who usually doesn't know when to let it rest...).

 

[marc4pt0]

^^Me and my cigarette break concur

 

[jacko9]

"The End" - very good read for a Saturday evening. As a retired custom furniture maker I was deeply engrossed in this thread.

 

[ecchef]

You guys have restored my faith in humanity. :biggrin:

 

[JohnnyChance]

Oh man, the only thing that would make this worse is a divorce lawyer...and that divorce lawyer was Oivind Dahle.

k.

This is some fcking KF/KKF OG humor for you kids.

 

[marc4pt0]

So I'd like to apologize for what was certainly inevitable here. I think most knew that once the maker started posting sparks were bound to fly. Hopefully that has calmed a bit now.

I still stand behind the original intent(s) of this thread and I believe its served this particular purpose, and then some. I also believe this became a good thread for several members here. It's certainly highlighted a few good vendors and hopefully educated some members on how to go about selecting a custom made knife.

I'd also like to add that I absolutely had nothing to "gain" by starting this thread, but I did feel like there was a potential to lose (something greater). I had no expectations or hopes of the maker offering anything more (to me). In fact the the sole expectation I had of the maker was met, exceedingly. Do I regret creating this thread? No. It opened several doors for others, and as a result I've made several new acquaintances.

That said, I would like this thread to not "die" on false conjectures and dishonest dance-arounds. It would be a disservice to what had already been offered prior to the sparks.
The more I think about it, the more I believe this thread was started in the right location. If it had been created in the maker's sub-forum I think that would have cast a grey cloud over it that many members wouldn't want to touch, let alone post their comments.

I'm not really sure how to tie this into a closing statement so I'll just carry on with with my next post:

 

[marc4pt0]

I'm also pleased to see Randy of HHH post in here as well! Now here's another vendor/knife maker that stands with class. Him and his son practically stand on their own platform with the work they put out.

I'll admit up front that I'm a little biased here as I did win a free gytuo that was offered by Randy several years ago. The drawing was done the same day my daughter (1st child) was born. So this gytuo holds a special value to me, as well as its maker.

It's important that I explain how I received the above mentioned knife, also known as the Tuxedo Gyuto. This knife gets used by me from time to time but I intend on passing this one down to my daughter once she's able to actually use it. In other words, this will be a heritage knife that I hope will last a lifetime.

While using it one day I noticed an ever tiny gap between the ivory scale and the tang. Again I was hesitant to bring this up with Randy, but once I did I was once again more than pleased with the reply. Now here's a unique situation where the maker has already gained nothing financially on this piece. So there's no built in buffer to "cover a warranty". Yet, once I brought this to Randy's attention his response was to send it back immediately. Even though this knife was essentially just given to me, Randy still stands behind it. I don't know what this kind of repair/fix will entail, but Randy has expressed concern that I return it asap to get fixed.

*Randy, my apologies for dragging my feet on returning it. I just got back from a mini vacation Thursday. I will have it in the mail this Monday!

This is the kind of service that I personally want from knife makers, and in general, when spending this kind of money. I express this so others who are considering a custom knife might want to include this as part of their inquiry with vendors here or elsewhere.
For the most part I believe vendors here are solid and will back their work/product as much as possible. I certainly don't expect a free repair if I jack the knife up or snap the tip off, and I don't expect a free thinning (though I have received this service from a few which was more than nice). I do expect a defect or something somewhat beyond my control to be covered. We have many talented makers/vendors here, but even they can make a small mistake from time to time. It's human. And sometimes material might "age" differently than expected, which is completely out of their control, and mine. It's how they handle these instances, and follow through for that matter, that separates the good from the untrustworthy.

Randy, my hat's off to ya. Thank you for being one of the good guys!!

 

[DeepCSweede]

I think the original intent of "the cautionary tale" holds extreme validity as I think a lot of the newer members may think that ordering a custom or even just a knife from a member is as simple as putting in an order and the knife will appear in a few weeks. That has not been my experience so far. Even ordering what a maker considers a ready made knife can be a PITA. Most knives I have ordered have been delayed by months or even years with little to no communication from the vendor. That can be extremely frustrating. I stayed out of the Eamon debacle and am infinitely glad I did because to see how Eamon treated that situation was really sad. However that situation really righted itself by the determination of Danny "Zwiefel" who took a really bad situation and showed the heart of some awesome vendors who wrapped up the project without being compensated for it.

While this situation leaves a bad taste in both parties mouths, I think it is a good lesson that we are all human and each of us has our own perception of how events transpire and that transactions can and may take a turn for the worst. I personally don't make any judgement against either party at this point, I hope a resolution can be made and you guys can move on.

There are some great makers here just be patient with the process.

 

[AllanP]

I'm sorry but I'm rather disappointed at a lot of comments about problems with custom makers. It seems like the practice of weeks turning into months, turning into years happens way more than it should. I think the expectations are so low around these parts that people don't even expect anything to be handled in a timely or professional manner anymore and just sees it as part of the process. I think I can understand the pain of individual knife makers and their hardships of running a business. But then again we live in a real world where vendors should have some accountability about people's hard earned money.

I read the forum, all I hear is praise about custom maker knives being the buzz and how great of cutters they are. Maybe there should be more reviews on customer services and basic business practices so people have a realistic expectation of what they are putting their money into.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

I'm sorry but I'm rather disappointed at a lot of comments about problems with custom makers. It seems like the practice of weeks turning into months, turning into years happens way more than it should. I think the expectations are so low around these parts that people don't even expect anything to be handled in a timely or professional manner anymore and just sees it as part of the process. I think I can understand the pain of individual knife makers and their hardships of running a business. But then again we live in a real world where vendors should have some accountability about people's hard earned money.

I read the forum, all I hear is praise about custom maker knives being the buzz and how great of cutters they are. Maybe there should be more reviews on customer services and basic business practices so people have a realistic expectation of what they are putting their money into.

I think your suggestion holds a lot of merit.

On your first comments though, as someone who is intimately acquainted with that process...I feel the need to explain a few things. I have a number of friends who are bladesmiths. Most of them have extensive wait lists. When asked 'how long', they are often expected to give a date down to the week, at minimum. In general they are requested to give a ball park guess as to when the customer might be up on the list. Sometimes this is doable, but most often...being as how each individual knife is its own creation, with its own issues and possible problems...it isn't even close to possible. The best thing that can be given is a guess. Even once a specific customer's project starts, sometimes things go awry and it gets drawn out. This IS part of the nature of things, and if a person isn't prepared for that they should probably buy a pre-made knife from one of the excellent resellers, or even a pre-made from one of the custom vendors. This comment is not meant to be disparaging in any way! It's just a fact. In addition, most guys doing this full time did it partially (if not mostly) for the freedom of expression inherent in the process, and a patient customer will almost ALWAYS get that maker's best work. A pushy customer who is expecting a 5 day 9am deadline to be met on the dot (sarcasm there lol), is probably not going to get that kind of return. Not because the maker doesn't want to provide it, but because he's no longer free to 'follow the muse' so to speak. A part time maker will almost invariably have a main job and family time to contend with, and will more often be even more erratic in their management of time...and understandably so.

Now, understand that those are somewhat extreme examples, and most makers have things in hand enough to have something more than zero control over the process. That said, the same issues (and dozens more I'm not going into) apply. Understand also, this is NOT an excuse for poor communication. If a maker is a poor communicator, he should be selling through an intermediary, rather than direct to customers. In my opinion, when one pays $600-$1500 or more for a gyuto...one is buying a large chunk of a maker's time with it. Possibly not as much as some makers provide, but certainly more than I hear many makers are giving.

So in the end, I do tend to agree with you across the board, with a few caveats as far as time frame expectations go .

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Oh, also...deposits almost completely negate many of the things I've said. Once you take a deposit you are ABSOLUTELY beholden to a customer in regards to both communication and a more accurate level of scheduling. This is the nature of service once you have taken someone's money.

 

[stevenStefano]

I thin if there's one thing to learn from this thread for people who have never ordered a custom before, is that they take time and it's easy for weeks to turn into months and months, years

 

[CrisAnderson27]

I thin if there's one thing to learn from this thread for people who have never ordered a custom before, is that they take time and it's easy for weeks to turn into months and months, years

I think 'easy' would be a very large exaggeration.

Think about it like this. How many people on this forum have custom knives? How many have spoken up saying they had issues? A number in this post, yes...but, that's what the post is about (sort of), so that's the kind of responses it will draw. I can promise you that the percentage of those who have issues as compared to those who have a good experience, is very small indeed...for most all custom knife orders. There MAY be vendor specific exceptions, but I'm not aware of these and so cannot comment there.

 

[malexthekid]

Oh, also...deposits almost completely negate many of the things I've said. Once you take a deposit you are ABSOLUTELY beholden to a customer in regards to both communication and a more accurate level of scheduling. This is the nature of service once you have taken someone's money.

I totally agree with this and why i would be very reluctant to get a custom knife from someone with a 6+ month wait time that wants an upfront deposit. Too much can change in that time period.

 

[chefcomesback]

I totally agree with this and why i would be very reluctant to get a custom knife from someone with a 6+ month wait time that wants an upfront deposit. Too much can change in that time period.

If someone asks for a full payment or half of it upfront I would be vary however most makers with the common business practice will ask minimal deposits upfront (10-20) percent . This is to determine serious buyers , as you can Imagine 40-50 will inquire, 30 will say they will deposit something to be on the list and 15-20 will actually deposit to be on the list . From makers point if they allocate time for all the quotes their timeline won't be realistic and at the end they also need to plan how many they are going to make , if they make a specific knife for someone and there is nothing to hold the buyer against like deposit the maker will be stuck with something fully custom that they may not be able to sell .

 

[MAS4T0]

I thin if there's one thing to learn from this thread for people who have never ordered a custom before, is that they take time.

I agree that this is a very important lesson, if you have tight time constraints you would probably be best advised to avoid commissions and buy ready made.

In some other fields it's not uncommon for finished work to sell for double the cost of commissioning it. I didn't understand this until I found myself 5 years into a project which is still not close to completion.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

If someone asks for a full payment or half of it upfront I would be vary however most makers with the common business practice will ask minimal deposits upfront (10-20) percent . This is to determine serious buyers , as you can Imagine 40-50 will inquire, 30 will say they will deposit something to be on the list and 15-20 will actually deposit to be on the list . From makers point if they allocate time for all the quotes their timeline won't be realistic and at the end they also need to plan how many they are going to make , if they make a specific knife for someone and there is nothing to hold the buyer against like deposit the maker will be stuck with something fully custom that they may not be able to sell .

I completely understand this Mert! But...I would assume a custom maker would communicate with a customer before he began making the guy his knife . At that time a small (say 20%) surety deposit is completely reasonable. But a deposit just to get on the list is sort of silly. One maker I know accepts everyone and anyone who wants to give a name, address, phone, and email. If the person doesn't respond within a day of attempted communication, they get bumped back one slot. If they don't respond by the time the knife for the next person is finished, they get pushed to the end of the line and lose any price breaks they got with their initial order (meaning if prices were raised since). If they come back around AGAIN with no communication, they are simply relegated to a 'dead' file on the list and remain there until they choose to communicate again themselves. Nowhere in this process is a deposit necessary, or even wanted...as it poses an obligation to the maker as well.

The only drawback to this is as you said...their timeline may not be realistic. BUT...if anything it makes customers who are behind them on the list a bit happier .

 

[malexthekid]

If someone asks for a full payment or half of it upfront I would be vary however most makers with the common business practice will ask minimal deposits upfront (10-20) percent . This is to determine serious buyers , as you can Imagine 40-50 will inquire, 30 will say they will deposit something to be on the list and 15-20 will actually deposit to be on the list . From makers point if they allocate time for all the quotes their timeline won't be realistic and at the end they also need to plan how many they are going to make , if they make a specific knife for someone and there is nothing to hold the buyer against like deposit the maker will be stuck with something fully custom that they may not be able to sell .

Totally agree Mert but from my point of view i would only be willing to do that with a maker that i have a repore with and trust, like yourself. And i also have no qualms with paying for materials upfront before you start work.

It really is on a case by case basis but my primary stance is one of reluctance for a deposit until close to work is starting.

 

[chefcomesback]

Totally agree Mert but from my point of view i would only be willing to do that with a maker that i have a repore with and trust, like yourself. And i also have no qualms with paying for materials upfront before you start work.

It really is on a case by case basis but my primary stance is one of reluctance for a deposit until close to work is starting.

Definetely understand your point too Alex , I had couple instances where I purchased the handle materials and got stuck , if it is a regular items not so bad but for odd lengths and profiles the maker will get stuck with it .
120mm petty with mammoth tooth handle is lot difficult to sell if the person changes their mind vs 240 western or wa gyuto

 

[jacko9]

I understand the deposit consideration - for me as a custom furniture maker the material cost when I first got started was about 50% of the total cost and if the buyer backed out it was a huge hit for me. I got to the point that I would only take commissions from (mutually) trusted customers and it worked for my business.

Last year I purchased a knife from Teruyasu Fujiwara online (and with limited language barriers) I upgraded to the upgraded ebony handle and paid the full amount with paypal. There was a delay because of the scarcity of ebony but, I received my knife 6 weeks later (he sent me an email telling me of the delay).

 

[ecchef]

Ok guys, last call. Please end this on a positive note. Thanks.

 

[JohnnyChance]

Sorry y'all, this was supposed to have been closed but got moved/deleted instead. It's back though (as you can see).