An inquisitive cautionary tale

[Seth]

I don't see it as a condemnation of all custom makers. It's not clear how many bad experiences this is based on, how much money was involved, whether it was the poster's own experience vs. hearing things from others or some combination, etc.

Everyone has their own threshold for how much risk is too much. Seth may have hit his limit, but other folks with have different experiences and tolerances for risk. Plus, each transaction will ultimately be decided on individually (even if factoring in personal experience and reported history), so some people might enter in to some type of arrangement with a maker who has an impeccable reputation.

I'm thankful this thread is here, and that there have been many constructive and illustrative responses. It's important information to have out in this community, and everyone should keep in mind there are risks. At this point, I wouldn't go for a custom for a maker who wanted payment up front, or even a significant part, like half. I'd be very careful to see what type of feedback is out there in terms of communication, reliability, timeliness, etc. Also good to be very clear in communications and saving records. In the end, if a buyer has given money and has an issue, I'm not sure how much recourse there generally is. Yes, some public posting might have an impact, but might not.

For the record, in virtually every case where I've heard of problems, I think the maker has entered into the agreement with good and honest intentions. But sometimes the issues of life, whether family, health, business, etc. have become a significant impediment to fulfilling the order.

Yes Larry, so let me clarify as I often use a broad strokes out of laziness. I have had several annoying experiences and it is not applicable to all vendors here. So I take it back, uncle, uncle. I am not that interested in putting myself in the position described by some people - just a personal choice. I think that the power of the forum can be to hold vendors to a minimum standard. As we are not naming people most of us will learn the hard way and ymmv, as you say.

 

[larrybard]

. . . . I have no idea what a margin is on a custom kitchen knife . . . .

As a purchaser sometimes I feel fortunate -- and, at the same time, a bit guilty -- that some of these talented knife makers aren't also accountants. As with many often underappreciated skilled endeavors (one need go no further than a professional kitchen staff, for examples), a realistic, careful calculation of time spent (and, when also relevant, materials purchased), compared to ultimate sales prices/salaries would likely reveal almost unconscionable compensation. I really don't want to think too long and hard what some of the skilled knife makers with very limited volume wind up making per hour for their efforts.

 

[marc4pt0]

I now know what ymmv means. So today I learned something.

 

[HHH Knives]

Interesting thread Its good to see some other makers sharing there thoughts on this thread.

Cris your comments always make me think. and show your respect and maturity, both as a person and a maker.. Mert Is a true artist. and his comments and his work both culinary and as a knife maker show that fully.. Much respect gents..

Speaking to the comments of ordering or not ordering a knife from a vendor. This is a choice. and should, like any large purchase.. Not be taken lightly. Buyer and seller should both do there homework.. So in short. I would be doing some research prior to purchase. And if large sums of money and time are involved. Im asking some pointed questions up front both to them and myself about risk/reward. You likely will find that when you order from a artist/craftsman. Be it here or anywhere.. The results more often then not, end in your favor.. Be it that you end up with a very nice cutting tool.. Or even sometimes a knife that is sometimes even more.. Something I dont know exactly how to put into words. without sounding mystical. or crazy.. LMAO! But I think many here know what I mean..

Its no secret that the vast majority of the men and women that make handmade knives and other items are Artists. Honorable and hard working, and most are not making alot of money. true.. And money is often NOT the driving force behind the unique creations. Its their "Passion" for the art, craft. Its learning and always trying to improve, the experience. These things mean more to most makers then the monetary side of things. We are doing something me love. Which you cant put a price on..

Makes me think for many of you guys. Working Long hours and holidays and weekends. In a industry that doesn't often pay you fair for the amount of commitment and work and passion you put into your foods! But you drive forward with passion and commitment to your craft.. LONG hours of work low pay scale. etc. Yet many of you. Probably most would not give it up. Although you would appreciator a bump in your pay scale. I say this to use as a parallel about the money. Not to start a new argument. lol Hope my babbling is making sense..

I want to thank you guys for both a informative look at these issues addressed in this post. More so, for the civil communications back and forth through this post. It really says alot about the forum and its members. Much respect.

Blessings
Randy

 

[MAS4T0]

I say "suspect" as he's never committed to a lifetime warranty, but I just feel like he's got me covered through our correspondence.

I've taken this somewhat out of context, so I apologise Marc, but this concept of warranty is what is at the core of the views expressed here. It would seem that at least in some cases, knives are sold on a sold as seen basis and the maker can't afford to stand behind them to a major extent in terms of refunds or replacements. Most customers have the expectation that the maker will stand behind the work forever, obviously some will, but it is not a failure on the maker's part if the customer inferred a warranty which was not offered.

I buy Snap-On tools because I know I'll have them forever. If one of the tools did fail me and they refused to replace it, I would probably end up taking it to court. I would also feel cheated if they accused me of misuse and thus refused a refund, as I take the utmost care of my tools.

On the other hand, I know a guy who used a standard socket on an air line and obviously ruined it, it was clearly apparent what he's done and I wouldn't be surprised if he admitted it, but they replaced it anyway as a gesture if good will and just told him not to do it again. That's why you're willing to pay double the going rate for their tools, but also the reason why they need to charge that amount.

If you read between the lines, some resellers have a policy akin to giving a 24 hour insurrection period after which you're on your own, while others effectively give a lifetime warranty. This is why we love some resellers and have a very dim view of others. I'd wager it's the same with knife makers and a lot these issues could be avoided if there were terms of sale which laid it all out. I honestly think that things would be much easier on everyone if T&C's of sale were a vendor requirement.

I can completely understand both sides. On the one hand you've got a customer who paid good money for a knife and is notified a year down the line that there's a problem, it buys it pre-owned and notices a problem. He then contracts the maker, having inferred that there's a warranty...

The maker on the other hand has shipped a knife to a happy customer and a year has passed (with him being unaware of what's happened to the blade during that period). He's then contacted unexpectedly and asked to remedy this issue at his expense! He then has to make the choice between keeping the customer happy or being able to provide for his family that month. It's a loss either way though because it's either his wallet or his reputation which takes the hit.

It's complicated, but a little clarification would go a very long way. The other thing is that it's always a loss for the maker, he either loses his pay day or his reputation, so having clear terms of sale would definitely be in their best interests.

 

[Dave Martell]

Surprise! The knifemaker that this thread is about is me, but I'm guessing many of you already knew that.

I wasn’t going to respond to this thread at all because of it’s Yelp(ish) qualities but then I figured that unlike Yelp I have the opportunity to represent myself, to counter the accusations being presented, and present the truth. As so many of you have already mentioned, "there's two sides to every story".


So I ‘m going to respond to Marc’s posts as they come, doing my best to represent the truths as I know them to be….

I want to start this off by saying this thread is solely intended to get some constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings. Call it an inquisitive cautionary tale if you will. It will most likely spark some negativity, though I hope it will not get out of hand. I do not want this to become a crap show of mud slinging. So please, if posting a comment here, keep it civilized.

My counter-posts will hopefully also serve to enlist “constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings”. I will call my post “Another…… inquisitive cautionary tale”. I also hope that my posts do not spark negativity.

*Moderators- please help, if possible to keep this clean. I realize I'm walking a pretty thin line here, but I feel compelled to share this unfortunate experience.

Yes I agree, this experience should be shared. As always I’m sure that our moderators will keep us honest.

This ordeal started back in October of 2013 as a fairly positive experience. One that highlighted the positive vibe this Forum offers in spades.
I purchased a knife off of BST from a respected member here for a very good price. The member made mention of a flaw it possessed, and the original maker of this knife offered to help right this flaw. So off to the original maker it went. Once he received it he sent me a message with some pictures showing me that the flaw was worse off than he had thought, and that he may not be able to fix it.

The date is correct. Marc also has correct that this situation started out embodying what this forum offers in spades, positive experiences.

What’s missing….
The knife in question is the 4th knife I had ever made (#4 Martell gyuto), a beginner knifemaker's knife.

The knife came to Marc with a cracked handle, a crack that was actually much worse than the seller knew about, the scales were buckled and pulling away from the tang. What the seller noticed was a small crack on one side near the center pin.
*Note - This damage has since been found to have stemmed from unreliable wood being used in the construction, wood that was supplied by the initial customer/owner.

My initial offer was to fix the handle (not replace it) and was based on what information I had at the time the knife was sold to Marc. I also offered to clean up/re-finish/sharpen the blade at the same time. The idea was that I would seal the crack, re-sand/re-finish the handle, clean the blade up and that was all.

I made the above offers to the seller (not Marc – the buyer) to help him sell the knife (as he’s a valuable long-time customer) yet these offers were also meant to provide the seller with a better quality product than he bargained for in the deal. Basically I put myself out there to take a loss without anyone asking me to do so, I was under no obligation to make these offers, they were made solely to support these two KKF members.

After some goings back and forth, the maker offered to replace the knife. Free of charge (minus some handle material costs, I believe). This was extremely generous, as I think anyone would agree. So happy me.

It became clear to me that I should replace the entire handle. I brought up the issue of the wood costs and the seller offered to supply the wood.

After some further inspection of this beginner blade (I had made) I realized that to fix the handle I would have to address the full tang and need to also mess with the blade (beyond what I offered to previously do) so I made the decision that it might just be easier to made a whole new knife and this is what I offered.

Yes I’m sure that Marc was very happy here, he was offered a MAJOR upgrade of what would equate to a $250 gain for him.

Time had passed, and the original seller and I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress. The maker had told me that it would be finished soon. More time had passed, and the maker apologized for the length of time and told me that he had received the knife blanks, insinuating it would be finished soon. Or at least that's how I read it. This was followed by another message 7 months later saying he had the original gyuto sitting center stage as a reminder to get it started ASAP. This message came almost a year after the original purchase was made. There were other pm's in between this time, I don't feel that some of them show well for the Maker, so I will leave them out.

Fast forward a few more months- We had been keeping in touch from time to time regarding this, and he always apologized for the amount of time it had taken. I always understood and was never upset about it. After all, how could I be? He was still committed to this more than generous offer and for that I was always appreciative. In hindsight, maybe I should have expressed this more often in our correspondence. During our messaging we would wish each other Happy Holidays and such, and I'd inquire as to how he was coming along with his personal/professional struggles. I thought we were getting along well actually.

Marc said, “I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress”
I would say that Marc reached out more like every two weeks looking for an update. His PM’s always had a passive aggressive nature to them, asking questions like "how is the knife coming along" when he knew I hadn't worked on it yet, noting that “I’m impatient”, yet always stating that he’s "not rushing me", etc. Frankly speaking, I’ve never been hounded this badly, not even close. I realize that some people believe that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but sometimes it also gets left to rust.

Then late last year he posted another knife for sell. I bought it as I thought it would be interesting to see his work in stainless steel form, which this knife offered. We messaged back and forth about it after I received the knife, I mentioned how well I thought it performed and that I had some reservations about a specific detail. I mentioned I liked his handle work and I thought this specific knife didn't really offer his full potential. I then offered/inquired about sending him a Carter 240 gyuto along with handle materials to have it re-handled. I asked about pricing and ball park time for turnaround. The Carter doesn't get used too much as I'm currently not really digging the existing handle. There was more than one way to acquire a sample of his work, I thought.
It's around this time that all heck broke loose, which included him "publicly" insulting me in another thread.

This is a complete mis-representation of that situation. Marc purchased a clearly marked 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] quality “as is” gyuto that he later came to realize that he didn’t want based on his personal financial issues and was looking to return said knife and was declined. Marc was upset over this matter.

Yes, Marc was publicly insulted by myself for a passive aggressive post he made. I’m not sorry for insulting him, only for taking his bait.

For more details, and a more accurate account of the matter, please see…
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Gyuto-CPM-154?p=379981&viewfull=1#post379981

Up until now I've referred to this guy as the maker during this recount, just to keep his name somewhat out of it. I know full well that most members here will quickly figure out who I'm referring to, especially after the recent handle dilemma I just mentioned. This is where I fear this thread may go poorly, or simply just disappear as the person I'm speaking about is a highly regarded member here. I realize that by posting this I may be subjecting myself to some negative focus, but I feel very strongly that this ordeal needs to be discussed openly.

Our moderators won’t close this thread unless give a reason to. I always hoped that our members would one day come to understand that our moderators do what’s right and play no favoritism. It appears that this hasn’t yet been realized.

Everyone either knows who Marc is referring to or can request the information through PM. Passive aggressive discussion doesn’t help, Marc should have named me or posted in my sub-forum.

After the whole handle dilemma, I reached out to the maker and asked him to simply return the original knife that I had bought over 2 years ago. I figured it would just be easier this way, for the both of us. An easy way to make this all settle a bit softer. He then replied by telling me the original knife was ruined from an experiment he tried in an attempt to fix it, prior to his offering a replacement knife. So now I know why the maker offered a replacement knife in the beginning. I still think it was a generous offer, but he had never mentioned this prior to this message about a month or so ago.

This is 99% incorrect.

Marc did request that the #4 Martell gyuto be returned to him without me having done anything to it. This was about 1 month or so ago.

I replied that I could not indulge as the knife had been ruined from an experiment that I had attempted on the blade. Marc has made the assumption that this experiment is what caused me to make my offer to replace with an entire new knife, but, as I explained above this wasn’t the case. This experiment was actually done to see if I could fix this knife and I screwed it up, but, this was done AFTER I moved into my new shop which is over 1.5 yrs from my initial offer of replacing the knife.

BTW, I was doing this “experiment” because I was hoping turn a bad situation into a positive and donate the #4 gyuto to someone needy through knifeknerd's pay it back program. That's what I get for trying to do something nice.

He then went on to ask me what I had paid for the original knife (2+ yrs ago) and asked if I could provide some proof showing this. I thought this was weird but I fwd him the correspondence between the original seller and I so he could see.

Another month passed by and on Monday I received another email from the maker. In this email he stated that he will no longer be offering the replacement knife that he initially committed to quite some time ago. He then offered me a credit for the price I paid, to be used towards a new knife that must be twice the amount. As of now, I don't think this maker charges $700 for a knife. At least not that I'm aware of? Lastly, he told me that he will need to see formal proof that did I indeed pay for this knife, and it must show the amount I paid. This, he closed, will be his only offer.

Now, to me, this is in its purist form straight downright dirty dishonesty. I also think this can be considered a form of theft. And it's absolutely crazy for this person to think that I would ever consider giving him my hard earned cash again. Technically, that was my knife that he "ruined". Technically, if he refuses to make me the replacement he obligated himself to, he would owe me $350. What's a credit worth with this guy? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Yes I did make this final offer to Marc and yes I also require him to provide proof of what he paid for the knife and I have a good reason for doing so.

Up until just last week I had been dealing with Marc in the assumption that he had bought this knife, that this #4 Martell gyuto was owned by him, and that I owed Marc for any compensation due. I would come to find out that this wasn't at all true.

In one of Marc’s emails he mentioned that he “settled up” with the seller "a long time ago" over this matter and that I should now "deal with him directly". I took his advice and I contacted the seller and found out that Marc was given a replacement knife years ago and that the #4 Martell gyuto was in fact the property of the seller this entire time. Marc had no claim what-so-ever to the new knife he was asking me to make!

Also disclosed from the seller is the fact that Marc’s interest in the new to be made Martell knife was that he was given first right of refusal meaning that Marc could buy this new knife (valued at $600) for the sum of $350!

The facts in this matter are now much clearer. Marc was looking to make himself a profit, to take advantage of a (lucky for him at least) situation that he found himself in. This is the crime being committed here, this is the dishonesty he speaks of.

Let me rewind to over 2 years ago here. The original seller was very surprised by the maker's photos and comments regarding just how damaged the knife was. The seller had contacted me and apologized, making note that the knife wasn't that bad when he had sent it. At least not that he had thought. And the pictures he had posted on his BST thread didn't look that bad. The seller than offered to mail another knife he had just received to let me toy around with until this fiasco had come to pass. Well, I'm a knife addict so naturally I was quite impressed with this second knife. So the seller and I worked out a deal- he'd sell me the second knife (for an amount that I don't recall) which meant he kept the original $350 plus I would owe him a few more $$. And that's what we did. The other part of the deal was when the maker finished the replacement he would send it to me. If I decided to keep it I would then owe the seller the original asking price. If I decided it wasn't for me, I would simply mail the knife back to the seller and that would be that. Pretty amazing if you ask me.

Supporting evidence!

I bring this little factoid up as I think it's pretty relevant to the current status this whole ordeal is in. After reading the maker's last email I decided to bow out. He had gone too far and I simply do not wish to continue dealing with him and his dishonest ways. I informed the seller of this and thought it best that he deal with it, as it is really him that's still out the $350, not I. Yes, I felt somewhat bad pawning off this problem to someone else who has been more than fair during the original transaction. I have to be honest though, I also feel a bit relieved that it's not my $350 that this maker is choosing to screw me out of.

It should again be noted that Marc placed himself into this situation. He was impatient in his dealings with me, he expected more than what he was due, and was looking to make a profit from myself and the seller.

This situation between Marc and myself should have never happened as he had no business in this deal once he was compensated for the #4 Martell gyuto. He should have disclosed this information and relieved himself from any further discussion at that point.

It’s simply absurd that Marc finds himself to have been screwed in this matter as he’s the only one of the three of us who hasn’t taken a loss, he was looking to profit and gain - period.





Some final notes…

Since being in contact with the original owner (the seller) of the #4 Martell gyuto there is already a great discussion on righting this mess that we can both live with. This will be fixed. :cool2:

This “inquisitive cautionary tale” should serve (as was originally planned through Marc's intent) not only the members from getting screwed by knifemakers but to help members realize that other members can screw you as well. Knifemakers should also gleam something from this little tale too, customer’s aren’t always right.

To my loyal customers and friends, thank you for our support, and for sticking with me through all these years.

 

[Dave Martell]

Well over 3 years ago I gave another (separate) knife maker $100 as a deposit for a knife to be made. He kind of fell on hard times as well but promised to come through. Later he even started a thread here showing a detailed work in progress. It was never finished, and he has since disappeared.

In some respect it is a crapshoot. I've had great dealings with some amazing knife makers here, and I've had some that are not so great.

Another gentleman quoted me $500 for a custom gyuto almost 3 years ago when I first inquired about his work. His prices have since increased (rightfully so) and today they are almost 3 times what his original quote was. During that time my gyuto was back-burnered on several occasions, many times by my own doing. However, when I finally gave the green light to go, he insisted on keeping with the original $500 quote.
He didn't have to, and I certainly wasn't asking for it as it wasn't fair to him. But in the end he kept to his word and original commitment. And because of this, along with his extraordinary talent, I respect the heck out of this guy. And the knife I got from him last month was more than worth the wait.

I agree that the knifemaker did right by you but IMO he did only what any decent maker would do, what most of us likely do. Sorry but this is what should be expected - not what you think is extraordinary.

 

[Dave Martell]

Should I have started this thread in the vendor's sub-forum? I wasn't too sure where to stick this, and as I mentioned before, I was hesitant in doing so for a couple reasons. I don't mind if it needs to be moved, though I think it might change the tone here a bit. That may not be an entirely good thing, or I may be wrong.
But if I did start this thread in the wrong location, I do apologize.

It's too late. This thread is so much more than you and I.

 

[panda]

both sides sound like turds now, which is exactly how every he said she said story goes. one person being grimey usually leads to the other dishing it back out of spite and it just becomes one big mess. pass the popcorn!

where is the #4 blade now? is it physically broken or just cosmetic and could still be used? would be interesting for a passaround.

 

[Dave Martell]

both sides sound like turds now, which is exactly how every he said she said story goes. one person being grimey usually leads to the other dishing it back out of spite and it just becomes one big mess. pass the popcorn!

I couldn't agree more.

where is the #4 blade now? is it physically broken or just cosmetic and could still be used? would be interesting for a passaround.

It's in my possession. The blade is too thin in some sections and too thick in others, with an overgrind in the edge. Maybe...maybe, a petty could be made from it but even then I'd think it'd be a waste of time and money to pursue. It sure won't be a gyuto ever again.

 

[MAS4T0]

Thank you Dave for stepping forward and responding to this thread.

I had thought that the lack of T&C's were likely a major contributing factor to the problem and that clearly indicating them would help avoid this kind of issue.

Looking at your sale post, you did do this and it doesn't seem to have helped...

I'm not sure what could have been done differently.

If you read between the lines, some resellers have a policy akin to giving a 24 hour inspection period after which you're on your own, while others effectively give a lifetime warranty. This is why we love some resellers and have a very dim view of others. I'd wager it's the same with knife makers and a lot these issues could be avoided if there were terms of sale which laid it all out. I honestly think that things would be much easier on everyone if T&C's of sale were a vendor requirement.
.

 

[marc4pt0]

Not too sure what to say to this, Dave. I'm glad to see you're posting here though.

I'll start off by saying that I think accusing me of hitting you up every 2 weeks is pretty aggressive. I also welcome you to (publicly) provide each and every one of my "passive aggressive" pm's I sent you over the years. By my count that would be 52+ pm's. I love to type, but not that much.

As for looking to make a profit from this, well, that's entirely false. You don't need to take my word on this, it simply doesn't matter. What matters is you can't support this statement, so let's keep closer to the facts here.

"Also disclosed from the seller is the fact that Marc’s interest in the new to be made Martell knife was that he was given first right of refusal meaning that Marc could buy this new knife (valued at $600) for the sum of $350!"

This is true, as you pointed out I had already mentioned this. The seller offered me this deal and we both kept in touch with you on the aforementioned New Martel you offered. Was it a great deal at the time? Hell yeah. Am I a bad person for for accepting this offer? I certainly didn't think so. Was anybody being sneaky here? Nope. The original seller and I came to and agreement, one that he had offered.

"The knife came to Marc with a cracked handle, a crack that was actually much worse than the seller knew about, the scales were buckled and pulling away from the tang. What the seller noticed was a small crack on one side near the center pin.
*Note - This damage has since been found to have stemmed from unreliable wood being used in the construction, wood that was supplied by the initial customer/owner."

Just to be clear, I never touched or saw this #4 knife outside of the pictures the seller and you provided me.

"Our moderators won’t close this thread unless give a reason to. I always hoped that our members would one day come to understand that our moderators do what’s right and play no favoritism. It appears that this hasn’t yet been realized.

Everyone either knows who Marc is referring to or can request the information through PM. Passive aggressive discussion doesn’t help, Marc should have named me or posted in my sub-forum. "

I don't consider moderators here as enemies or boogey men. Let's keep this as close to fact as possible.
And I already admitted that outside of the 2 reasons I posted earlier, I wasn't sure where to post this thread. But I appreciate your efforts in a little character defamation here.
When posting this thread I did have concerns. If I recall, you were a moderator here once, and in fact I believe you started this forum. So I think my concerns were/are founded.


"This is 99% incorrect.

Marc did request that the #4 Martell gyuto be returned to him without me having done anything to it. This was about 1 month or so ago.

I replied that I could not indulge as the knife had been ruined from an experiment that I had attempted on the blade. Marc has made the assumption that this experiment is what caused me to make my offer to replace with an entire new knife, but, as I explained above this wasn’t the case. This experiment was actually done to see if I could fix this knife and I screwed it up, but, this was done AFTER I moved into my new shop which is over 1.5 yrs from my initial offer of replacing the knife.

BTW, I was doing this “experiment” because I was hoping turn a bad situation into a positive and donate the #4 gyuto to someone needy through knifeknerd's pay it back program. That's what I get for trying to do something nice."

Below is a copy/paste of the last pm you sent me clearly stating that you had performed your experiment prior to you offering a replacement. I can only go by what you say here.

"Marc,
I would send that old gyuto to you except that I've ground on it some, doing an experiment to see if I could fix it for you back some time ago before I committed to replacing it with a better upgraded version. This didn't work out and in fact made it worse, the edge has a hole in it, it's not fixable."


"This is a complete mis-representation of that situation. Marc purchased a clearly marked 2nd quality “as is” gyuto that he later came to realize that he didn’t want based on his personal financial issues and was looking to return said knife and was declined. Marc was upset over this matter.

Yes, Marc was publicly insulted by myself for a passive aggressive post he made. I’m not sorry for insulting him, only for taking his bait."

Personal financial issues? Please provide a message or email from me where I stated this. Take a look at my knife collection and tell me where my "financial issue" is. Do I spend a lot on knives? Duh. (Heck I just bought another today) Did I have an issue with my basement flooding? Yup. Did I sell a knife to help off-set the cost of remodeling? Yup. Did I ever once say I had financial issues? Never.

Also, please provide an email or pm showing where I asked you for a refund. Better yet, let me provide what exactly it was that I said:

"I used solely your knife today for a multitude of tasks, all of which varied from one way or another. I really like the profile and how the knife performs on many levels. But I gotta ask ya, what's the deal if I can't get past how small the handle is? As of now I'm kind of growing to it and how it makes the knife overall blade heavy (like some others I have). It looks badass, and the knife performs exactly how I had expected. I'm just on the fence with the handle. I've held/used 2 other knives from you at this year's ECG, one being the all black buffalo horn handle you sold last December as a "second". I thought the feel of those were pretty much spot on, especially the handles.
I was really excited about getting this one from you, not only because it's stainless and the performance, but I'm a fan of your handles. Now I'm kind of wrestling with maybe feeling slightly "shorted" with the handle...?

Please don't think I'm sounding any alarm just yet. Like I said, the handle is starting to grow on me and I want to give it a solid chance. I think it's only fair that way.

Let me ask you this as I don't recall the exact details from the ones I handled earlier this year- typically your handles are wider and a bit taller, correct? I ask as I have a Carter that I use from time to time and started using again recently. I'm growing less fond of wa handles, which is why I don't use it so much, and am considering re-handling it. I'm not too sure which way I'm going with it yet. Thinking about maybe even trying my own hand at making a handle, but the time factor is what's stopping me. I actually have the wood, spacer, pins, liners and all, but just don't have the time currently. What's a rough time quote for getting a Martell Western re-handle done? I figure there may be more than one way to get your standard handle, should the current one prove to be not too small..."

There was a message I sent you prior to this mentioning the handle being small-ish, and also mentioning that I had only used it briefly on a carrot and onion, or something like that.
And there was another message I sent you after this, in response to another you had sent me, but I can't find it at the moment. I do recall being pretty pissed and saying something like most vendors offer returns or whatever, but again I never asked for a return. So can we please get past this and get back to the facts?

Again, I'm happy that you decided to take part of this discussion. I think it's smart on your part, and it's certainly good to defend yourself publicly. But I am hoping you can do so by keeping true to the facts. I tried my best to do so, and I expect the same from you.

 

[mr drinky]

Oh man, the only thing that would make this worse is a divorce lawyer...and that divorce lawyer was Oivind Dahle.

k.

 

[Chuckles]

I will dip in here for a quick second as we enter the dirty laundry portion of the event. I am the 'seller' in this scenario. I have been out of the country the last week and have just recently discovered the thread. I only have a couple of things to add.

I do think a thread like this can have some value, especially when taken in the abstract.


The nature of this fiasco is extreme and would test the limits of any vendor/customer relationship. The timeline is long. In the intervening time I have had transactions with both Dave and Marc. I bought a gyuto from Dave and his customer service was exemplary and the turn around was very quick. I also traded knives with Marc and the terms were generous and friendly.

I am posting this only to point out that while this may indeed be a cautionary tale about how a situation can go from sticky to hairy to ugly it should not be viewed as a complete portrait of the individuals involved. Personally, I would not hesitate to purchase from Dave again and I consider Marc to be a friend.

That's all.

 

[Dardeau]

Oh man, the only thing that would make this worse is a divorce lawyer...and that divorce lawyer was Oivind Dahle.

k.

I've been avoiding this thread, as it doesn't seem to be headed anywhere good. This joke made all the reading of disagreement worth it. That aside, I only skimmed the thread, but it seems the parties are staying comparatively civil and I hope it stays that way. And as an aside a DM hidden tang western on your Carter would look really good Marc.

 

[mr drinky]

I will dip in here for a quick second as we enter the dirty laundry portion of the event. I am the 'seller' in this scenario. I have been out of the country the last week and have just recently discovered the thread. I only have a couple of things to add.

I do think a thread like this can have some value, especially when taken in the abstract.


The nature of this fiasco is extreme and would test the limits of any vendor/customer relationship. The timeline is long. In the intervening time I have had transactions with both Dave and Marc. I bought a gyuto from Dave and his customer service was exemplary and the turn around was very quick. I also traded knives with Marc and the terms were generous and friendly.

I am posting this only to point out that while this may indeed be a cautionary tale about how a situation can go from sticky to hairy to ugly it should not be viewed as a complete portrait of the individuals involved. Personally, I would not hesitate to purchase from Dave again and I consider Marc to be a friend.

That's all.

I think this is the best post I have read on this forum in years.

k.

 

[marc4pt0]

^^ I'll second that. Thank you Charlie

 

[Dave Martell]

Below is a copy/paste of the last pm you sent me clearly stating that you had performed your experiment prior to you offering a replacement. I can only go by what you say here.

"Marc,
I would send that old gyuto to you except that I've ground on it some, doing an experiment to see if I could fix it for you back some time ago before I committed to replacing it with a better upgraded version. This didn't work out and in fact made it worse, the edge has a hole in it, it's not fixable."

Marc, you should know that copying 'n pasting other member's PM's (Private Messages) has resulted, in the past, in members being banned or having their PM privileges revoked. Just sayin'

As for context, you and I both know the timeline of how things went down but if you don't want to be forthright then there we have it, don't we?

Come on man, you got busted pulling a fast one, just come clean and let it go already.

 

[Dave Martell]

I will dip in here for a quick second as we enter the dirty laundry portion of the event. I am the 'seller' in this scenario. I have been out of the country the last week and have just recently discovered the thread. I only have a couple of things to add.

I do think a thread like this can have some value, especially when taken in the abstract.


The nature of this fiasco is extreme and would test the limits of any vendor/customer relationship. The timeline is long. In the intervening time I have had transactions with both Dave and Marc. I bought a gyuto from Dave and his customer service was exemplary and the turn around was very quick. I also traded knives with Marc and the terms were generous and friendly.

I am posting this only to point out that while this may indeed be a cautionary tale about how a situation can go from sticky to hairy to ugly it should not be viewed as a complete portrait of the individuals involved. Personally, I would not hesitate to purchase from Dave again and I consider Marc to be a friend.

That's all.

Thanks Charlie

 

[malexthekid]

Dave if i were you i would leave this. And from my point of view Marc has nothing to gain by altering your words.

Whether you did it 18 months ago or 2 days before he asked for the return doesn't change his argument.

Not saying you are lying just that from objective veiwing yours is the least likely and will tarnish your standing unless you have irrefutable proof (which is basically impossible for pms).

Also, again trying to be the least offensive and help you from tarnishing a good image, but in my experience, from professional and personal dealings, the person that attacks a preson's charactet 9 times out of 10 is in the wrong and is using attack as their defence.

Again don't want to cast aspersions but this is how you are coming across which is a total opposite of the impressions i have of you from the few dealings we have had. Always been helpful in responding to questions and pms etc.

 

[easy13]

So, in two years a new (not even hand forged) replacement knife still hasn't been made for whomever it is owed/promised to?

 

[WildBoar]

Marc, you should know that copying 'n pasting other member's PM's (Private Messages) has resulted, in the past, in members being banned. Just sayin'

I agree with that in theory, but when it seems to directly contradict what is publically claimed in a dispute it becomes a grey area in my view. "He said" vs "he said" is all fine and dandy, but when actual correspondence is shown that holds a bit more weight.

As I stated in the previous thread about this dispute, I like both of you guys and hope things can be worked out. But Dave, that PM seems to directly contradict something you stated above and used to build your case against Marc. So either 1) you incorrectly remembered the timeline and did not go back through your info fully before posting, 2) you deliberately misstated the timeline, or 3) Marc fabricated that PM. Based on knowing you both over these years of KKF, I don't think it was 2) or 3). I guess if I was in Marc's shoes I would not have held back the PM when it directly countered a claim that he was looking to enrich himself. So 'forum etiquette' means he is supposed to keep quiet when he has direct correspondence that disputes the claims? Tough call there, but I come down on the side of 'it isn't private anymore'

 

[Dave Martell]

Dave if i were you i would leave this. And from my point of view Marc has nothing to gain by altering your words.

Whether you did it 18 months ago or 2 days before he asked for the return doesn't change his argument.

Not saying you are lying just that from objective veiwing yours is the least likely and will tarnish your standing unless you have irrefutable proof (which is basically impossible for pms).

Also, again trying to be the least offensive and help you from tarnishing a good image, but in my experience, from professional and personal dealings, the person that attacks a preson's charactet 9 times out of 10 is in the wrong and is using attack as their defence.

Again don't want to cast aspersions but this is how you are coming across which is a total opposite of the impressions i have of you from the few dealings we have had. Always been helpful in responding to questions and pms etc.

From Marc's initial post in this thread....

Now, to me, this is in its purist form straight downright dirty dishonesty. I also think this can be considered a form of theft. And it's absolutely crazy for this person to think that I would ever consider giving him my hard earned cash again. Technically, that was my knife that he "ruined". Technically, if he refuses to make me the replacement he obligated himself to, he would owe me $350. What's a credit worth with this guy? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.

Who did the attacking on a person's character? I believe that Marc drew first blood in that respect. I countered his assertions with my own, true.

Thanks for your input though.

 

[Dave Martell]

So, in two years a new (not even hand forged) replacement knife still hasn't been made for whomever it is owed/promised to?

Yes, that's 100% correct. I suppose you'd like an explanation to make you understand how this can happen?

 

[Dave Martell]

I agree with that in theory, but when it seems to directly contradict what is publically claimed in a dispute it becomes a grey area in my view. "He said" vs "he said" is all fine and dandy, but when actual correspondence is shown that holds a bit more weight.

As I stated in the previous thread about this dispute, I like both of you guys and hope things can be worked out. But Dave, that PM seems to directly contradict something you stated above and used to build your case against Marc. So either 1) you incorrectly remembered the timeline and did not go back through your info fully before posting, 2) you deliberately misstated the timeline, or 3) Marc fabricated that PM. Based on knowing you both over these years of KKF, I don't think it was 2) or 3). I guess if I was in Marc's shoes I would not have held back the PM when it directly countered a claim that he was looking to enrich himself. So 'forum etiquette' means he is supposed to keep quiet when he has direct correspondence that disputes the claims? Tough call there, but I come down on the side of 'it isn't private anymore'

I'd submit that I never stated that and I was hoping to not have to say that online because the nancys are bound to get wound up over this but the fact is that a PM can easily be, and has been, manipulated.

Even if it is accurate, I'm not of a changed opinion that Marc NEVER told me what he was up to nor does it change the fact that Marc Dixon attempted deceit.

 

[easy13]

Yes, that's 100% correct. I suppose you'd like an explanation to make you understand how this can happen?

Nope, all good

 

[Andrew]

Ugh, this is where an otherwise even thread goes off the rails.

It's hard owning a business in this internet age, but rarely does weighing in help...

If I were in your shoes Dave, I would chock this up to an unfortunate outcome and move on.

 

[Dave Martell]

Ugh, this is where an otherwise even thread goes off the rails.

It's hard owning a business in this internet age, but rarely does weighing in help...

If I were in your shoes Dave, I would chock this up to an unfortunate outcome and move on.

I can't argue, I hope I can do this, I'll try.

Thanks

 

[marc4pt0]

Marc, you should know that copying 'n pasting other member's PM's (Private Messages) has resulted, in the past, in members being banned or having their PM privileges revoked. Just sayin'

As for context, you and I both know the timeline of how things went down but if you don't want to be forthright then there we have it, don't we?

Come on man, you got busted pulling a fast one, just come clean and let it go already.

My apologies for copying your pm. I know better and have stated so in the other thread. But in this case I believe your untruthfulness needed to be pointed out.

I'm not sure how I got "busted" here, but it would seem that you are the one who got busted.

But is that how you really want to handle this? Dishonesty to then just making broad statements like "Come on man, you got busted pulling a fast one, just come clean and let it go already."
and also telling me I can get banned?

I see where you can think a fast one was pulled. And why wouldn't you? It's literally the only "defense" you have to hide behind. Continue with it, please. It makes my point of this thread much easier to hold its own weight.

 

[marc4pt0]

From Marc's initial post in this thread....




Who did the attacking on a person's character? I believe that Marc drew first blood in that respect. I countered his assertions with my own, true.

Thanks for your input though.

Technically your name hadn't been mentioned yet, just saying. Sure, it's a bogus technicality, but it's just fun to say. And I still stand by what I said here.