Surprise! The knifemaker that this thread is about is me, but I'm guessing many of you already knew that.
I wasnt going to respond to this thread at all because of its Yelp(ish) qualities but then I figured that unlike Yelp I have the opportunity to represent myself, to counter the accusations being presented, and present the truth. As so many of you have already mentioned, "there's two sides to every story".
So I m going to respond to Marcs posts as they come, doing my best to represent the truths as I know them to be
.
I want to start this off by saying this thread is solely intended to get some constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings. Call it an inquisitive cautionary tale if you will. It will most likely spark some negativity, though I hope it will not get out of hand. I do not want this to become a crap show of mud slinging. So please, if posting a comment here, keep it civilized.
My counter-posts will hopefully also serve to enlist constructive feedback and to inform others of my unfortunate dealings. I will call my post
Another
inquisitive cautionary tale. I also hope that my posts do not spark negativity.
*Moderators- please help, if possible to keep this clean. I realize I'm walking a pretty thin line here, but I feel compelled to share this unfortunate experience.
Yes I agree, this experience should be shared. As always Im sure that our moderators will keep us honest.
This ordeal started back in October of 2013 as a fairly positive experience. One that highlighted the positive vibe this Forum offers in spades.
I purchased a knife off of BST from a respected member here for a very good price. The member made mention of a flaw it possessed, and the original maker of this knife offered to help right this flaw. So off to the original maker it went. Once he received it he sent me a message with some pictures showing me that the flaw was worse off than he had thought, and that he may not be able to fix it.
The date is correct. Marc also has correct that this situation started out embodying what this forum offers in spades, positive experiences.
Whats missing
.
The knife in question is the 4th knife I had ever made (#4 Martell gyuto), a beginner knifemaker's knife.
The knife came to Marc with a cracked handle, a crack that was actually much worse than the seller knew about, the scales were buckled and pulling away from the tang. What the seller noticed was a small crack on one side near the center pin.
*Note - This damage has since been found to have stemmed from unreliable wood being used in the construction, wood that was supplied by the initial customer/owner.
My initial offer was to fix the handle (not replace it) and was based on what information I had at the time the knife was sold to Marc. I also offered to clean up/re-finish/sharpen the blade at the same time. The idea was that I would seal the crack, re-sand/re-finish the handle, clean the blade up and that was all.
I made the above offers to the seller (not Marc the buyer) to help him sell the knife (as hes a valuable long-time customer) yet these offers were also meant to provide the seller with a better quality product than he bargained for in the deal. Basically I put myself out there to take a loss without anyone asking me to do so, I was under no obligation to make these offers, they were made solely to support these two KKF members.
After some goings back and forth, the maker offered to replace the knife. Free of charge (minus some handle material costs, I believe). This was extremely generous, as I think anyone would agree. So happy me.
It became clear to me that I should replace the entire handle. I brought up the issue of the wood costs and the seller offered to supply the wood.
After some further inspection of this beginner blade (I had made) I realized that to fix the handle I would have to address the full tang and need to also mess with the blade (beyond what I offered to previously do) so I made the decision that it might just be easier to made a whole new knife and this is what I offered.
Yes Im sure that Marc was very happy here, he was offered a MAJOR upgrade of what would equate to a $250 gain for him.
Time had passed, and the original seller and I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress. The maker had told me that it would be finished soon. More time had passed, and the maker apologized for the length of time and told me that he had received the knife blanks, insinuating it would be finished soon. Or at least that's how I read it. This was followed by another message 7 months later saying he had the original gyuto sitting center stage as a reminder to get it started ASAP. This message came almost a year after the original purchase was made. There were other pm's in between this time, I don't feel that some of them show well for the Maker, so I will leave them out.
Fast forward a few more months- We had been keeping in touch from time to time regarding this, and he always apologized for the amount of time it had taken. I always understood and was never upset about it. After all, how could I be? He was still committed to this more than generous offer and for that I was always appreciative. In hindsight, maybe I should have expressed this more often in our correspondence. During our messaging we would wish each other Happy Holidays and such, and I'd inquire as to how he was coming along with his personal/professional struggles. I thought we were getting along well actually.
Marc said, I had reached out a few times to check in on the knife's progress
I would say that Marc reached out more like
every two weeks looking for an update. His PMs always had a passive aggressive nature to them, asking questions like "how is the knife coming along" when he knew I hadn't worked on it yet, noting that Im impatient, yet always stating that hes "not rushing me", etc. Frankly speaking, Ive never been hounded this badly, not even close. I realize that some people believe that the squeaky wheel gets the grease but sometimes it also gets left to rust.
Then late last year he posted another knife for sell. I bought it as I thought it would be interesting to see his work in stainless steel form, which this knife offered. We messaged back and forth about it after I received the knife, I mentioned how well I thought it performed and that I had some reservations about a specific detail. I mentioned I liked his handle work and I thought this specific knife didn't really offer his full potential. I then offered/inquired about sending him a Carter 240 gyuto along with handle materials to have it re-handled. I asked about pricing and ball park time for turnaround. The Carter doesn't get used too much as I'm currently not really digging the existing handle. There was more than one way to acquire a sample of his work, I thought.
It's around this time that all heck broke loose, which included him "publicly" insulting me in another thread.
This is a complete mis-representation of that situation. Marc purchased a clearly marked 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] quality as is gyuto that he later came to realize that he didnt want based on his personal financial issues and was looking to return said knife and was declined. Marc was upset over this matter.
Yes, Marc was publicly insulted by myself for a passive aggressive post he made. Im not sorry for insulting him, only for taking his bait.
For more details, and a more accurate account of the matter, please see
http://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/s...-Gyuto-CPM-154?p=379981&viewfull=1#post379981
Up until now I've referred to this guy as the maker during this recount, just to keep his name somewhat out of it. I know full well that most members here will quickly figure out who I'm referring to, especially after the recent handle dilemma I just mentioned. This is where I fear this thread may go poorly, or simply just disappear as the person I'm speaking about is a highly regarded member here. I realize that by posting this I may be subjecting myself to some negative focus, but I feel very strongly that this ordeal needs to be discussed openly.
Our moderators wont close this thread unless give a reason to. I always hoped that our members would one day come to understand that our moderators do whats right and play no favoritism. It appears that this hasnt yet been realized.
Everyone either knows who Marc is referring to or can request the information through PM. Passive aggressive discussion doesnt help, Marc should have named me or posted in my sub-forum.
After the whole handle dilemma, I reached out to the maker and asked him to simply return the original knife that I had bought over 2 years ago. I figured it would just be easier this way, for the both of us. An easy way to make this all settle a bit softer. He then replied by telling me the original knife was ruined from an experiment he tried in an attempt to fix it, prior to his offering a replacement knife. So now I know why the maker offered a replacement knife in the beginning. I still think it was a generous offer, but he had never mentioned this prior to this message about a month or so ago.
This is 99% incorrect.
Marc did request that the #4 Martell gyuto be returned to him without me having done anything to it. This was about 1 month or so ago.
I replied that I could not indulge as the knife had been ruined from an experiment that I had attempted on the blade. Marc has made the assumption that this experiment is what caused me to make my offer to replace with an entire new knife, but, as I explained above this wasnt the case. This experiment was actually done to see if I could fix this knife and I screwed it up, but, this was done AFTER I moved into my new shop which is over 1.5 yrs from my initial offer of replacing the knife.
BTW, I was doing this experiment because I was hoping turn a bad situation into a positive and donate the #4 gyuto to someone needy through knifeknerd's pay it back program. That's what I get for trying to do something nice.
He then went on to ask me what I had paid for the original knife (2+ yrs ago) and asked if I could provide some proof showing this. I thought this was weird but I fwd him the correspondence between the original seller and I so he could see.
Another month passed by and on Monday I received another email from the maker. In this email he stated that he will no longer be offering the replacement knife that he initially committed to quite some time ago. He then offered me a credit for the price I paid, to be used towards a new knife that must be twice the amount. As of now, I don't think this maker charges $700 for a knife. At least not that I'm aware of? Lastly, he told me that he will need to see formal proof that did I indeed pay for this knife, and it must show the amount I paid. This, he closed, will be his only offer.
Now, to me, this is in its purist form straight downright dirty dishonesty. I also think this can be considered a form of theft. And it's absolutely crazy for this person to think that I would ever consider giving him my hard earned cash again. Technically, that was my knife that he "ruined". Technically, if he refuses to make me the replacement he obligated himself to, he would owe me $350. What's a credit worth with this guy? Nothing as far as I'm concerned.
Yes I did make this final offer to Marc and yes I also require him to provide proof of what he paid for the knife and I have a good reason for doing so.
Up until just last week I had been dealing with Marc in the assumption that he had bought this knife, that this #4 Martell gyuto was owned by him, and that I owed Marc for any compensation due. I would come to find out that this wasn't at all true.
In one of Marcs emails he mentioned that he settled up with the seller "a long time ago" over this matter and that I should now "deal with him directly". I took his advice and I contacted the seller and found out that Marc was given a replacement knife years ago and that the #4 Martell gyuto was in fact the property of the seller this entire time.
Marc had no claim what-so-ever to the new knife he was asking me to make!
Also disclosed from the seller is the fact that Marcs interest in the new to be made Martell knife was that he was given first right of refusal meaning that Marc could buy this new knife (valued at $600) for the sum of $350!
The facts in this matter are now much clearer. Marc was looking to make himself a profit, to take advantage of a
(lucky for him at least) situation that he found himself in. This is the crime being committed here, this is the dishonesty he speaks of.
Let me rewind to over 2 years ago here. The original seller was very surprised by the maker's photos and comments regarding just how damaged the knife was. The seller had contacted me and apologized, making note that the knife wasn't that bad when he had sent it. At least not that he had thought. And the pictures he had posted on his BST thread didn't look that bad. The seller than offered to mail another knife he had just received to let me toy around with until this fiasco had come to pass. Well, I'm a knife addict so naturally I was quite impressed with this second knife. So the seller and I worked out a deal- he'd sell me the second knife (for an amount that I don't recall) which meant he kept the original $350 plus I would owe him a few more $$. And that's what we did. The other part of the deal was when the maker finished the replacement he would send it to me. If I decided to keep it I would then owe the seller the original asking price. If I decided it wasn't for me, I would simply mail the knife back to the seller and that would be that. Pretty amazing if you ask me.
Supporting evidence!
I bring this little factoid up as I think it's pretty relevant to the current status this whole ordeal is in. After reading the maker's last email I decided to bow out. He had gone too far and I simply do not wish to continue dealing with him and his dishonest ways. I informed the seller of this and thought it best that he deal with it, as it is really him that's still out the $350, not I. Yes, I felt somewhat bad pawning off this problem to someone else who has been more than fair during the original transaction. I have to be honest though, I also feel a bit relieved that it's not my $350 that this maker is choosing to screw me out of.
It should again be noted that Marc placed himself into this situation. He was impatient in his dealings with me, he expected more than what he was due, and was looking to make a profit from myself and the seller.
This situation between Marc and myself should have never happened as he had no business in this deal once he was compensated for the #4 Martell gyuto. He should have disclosed this information and relieved himself from any further discussion at that point.
Its simply absurd that Marc finds himself to have been screwed in this matter as hes the only one of the three of us who hasnt taken a loss, he was looking to profit and gain - period.
Some final notes
Since being in contact with the original owner (the seller) of the #4 Martell gyuto there is already a great discussion on righting this mess that we can both live with. This will be fixed. :cool2:
This inquisitive cautionary tale should serve (as was originally planned through Marc's intent) not only the members from getting screwed by knifemakers but to help members realize that other members can screw you as well. Knifemakers should also gleam something from this little tale too, customers arent always right.
To my loyal customers and friends, thank you for our support, and for sticking with me through all these years.