Anyone else moving toward All American Makers?

[Sabaki]

If that's the case I'd appreciate details, I've always been curious to try real authentic Damascus steel; I was under the impression that it was a lost art.

I didn't know any of the makers here made "true" Damascus steel. I was under the impression that everyone was using pattern welding to create the Damascus effect.

"True" cause the maker himself does his own pattern welding not someone elses

 

[MAS4T0]

du har sågspån i ditt huvud:doublethumbsup:

"True" cause the maker himself does his own pattern welding not someone elses

I have sawdust in my head?

If that's an insult, it seems quite low to write it in a foreign language. Hint: If you want to insult someone, it helps if they can understand what you're saying.

So a knife made by Marko using a billet forged by Devin is not true Damascus in your mind?

 

[Sabaki]

I have sawdust in my head?

If that's an insult, it seems quite low to write it in a foreign language. Hint: If you want to insult someone, it helps if they can understand what you're saying.

So a knife made by Marko using a billet forged by Devin is not true Damascus in your mind?

sorry for my bad English, i couldn´t help myself

yes of course it is true, Devin makes his own by hand so therefor it is true!

you do know that most japanese knifemakers buy factorymade damascusbillets right?

if i had said "original" damascus, i too would be very impressed

 

[MAS4T0]

sorry for my bad English, i couldn´t help myself

yes of course it is true, Devin makes his own by hand so therefor it is true!

you do know that most japanese knifemakers buy factorymade damascusbillets right?

Yes, I am well aware of that; it's cost prohibitive to pattern weld individual billets by hand for low end knives. This approach is not universal and is not generally used on high-end knives which are anywhere near approaching the price of an American Damascus blade. Do you really think that Hattori KD, Shigefusa Kitajei or Mizuno Suminigashi are made like that, and if they are does it make any difference?

In any case, the pattern welding is just as real. The pattern was created by the same process (forge welding). It's only through powder metallurgy that they could possibly fake the forge welding (by sintering layers of different steels together) and even then it makes no difference. It's not as though they've drawing the pattern on with a sharpie and then etching the blade to etch a fake pattern.

Ah, but in the scenario outlined before, the knife maker didn't make the billet himself.

 

[MAS4T0]

if i had said "original" damascus, i too would be very impressed

True: accurate or exact.

True Damascus comes from Damascus or is at least created using the techniques developed there. Pattern welded steel which is made in house is no more "true" Damascus than that which is bought in.

True Damascus is original Damascus...

My apologies everyone for derailing the thread.

 

[Sabaki]

Yes, I am well aware of that; it's cost prohibitive to pattern weld individual billets for low end knives. This approach is not universal and is not used on high-end knives which are anywhere near approaching the price of an American Damascus blade. Do you really think that Hattori KD, Shigefusa Kitajei or Mizuno Suminigashi are made like that, and if they are sites it make any difference?

In any case, the pattern welding is just as real. It was created by the same process. It's only through powder metallurgy that they could possibly fake the forge welding by sintering layers of different steels together.

Ah, but in the scenario outlined before, the knife maker didn't make the billet himself.

I cant answer for these Japanese makers you mention if they make true or not

There is many Japanese makers that produce amazing knives but it feels like a lottery and i´m done gambling

 

[Sabaki]

True: accurate or exact.

True Damascus comes from Damascus or is at least created using the techniques developed there. Pattern welded steel which is made in house is no more "true" Damascus than that which is bought in.

True Damascus is original Damascus...

My apologies everyone for derailing the thread.

you are about to bring out my swedish words again:biggrin::biggrin:

so you think forge welding is all the same no matter how or by who it is prodused?

Handmade forge welded damascus by a skilled craftsman has a much higher value and is more beatiful sharper than a machine spitting out 300yards an hour if you ask me

i rest my case

 

[knyfeknerd]

I'm about to go to 100% Richmond knives made by Lamson.
Will you guys please take my crappy Japanese made knives from me?

 

[Twistington]

I'm about to go to 100% Richmond knives made by Lamson.
Will you guys please take my crappy Japanese made knives from me?

Sounds like someone forgot... http://www.rhinoknives.com/

NEEDS MORE SPEEDHOLES!

 

[Lefty]

I'm going to go back and read from Sabaki's comments, but I want to make it clear that I do not dislike Japanese knives, and I, in fact, still love them. I've just noticed that my knives are slowly but surely becoming more and more "American Made" (except Will and Pierre). It's not been something I've done intentionally, but rather something that has just happened. Great knives are great knives, regardless of where they are made. Without the Japanese kitchen knives we so often discuss and heap praise upon, the American makers of today would still be making fancy versions of German knives.

A Shigefusa is an incredible knife, as is one made by Michael Rader. A Heiji is great, much like a Harner. Tanakas are wonderful pieces, as are Tsourkans. Place of origin doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things, but what does matter is the understanding and skill of the smith making your piece.

 

[panda]

the american makers focus more on fit & finish and look than anything else. grind to me is the key to cutting performance and domestic stuff falls short in that department.

 

[Mrmnms]

Is Ginsu made in America. "Cuts through a tin can and slices a tomato this thin!" I guess I could throw in a few Japanese Gyutos with Chris then .

 

[Pensacola Tiger]

the american makers focus more on fit & finish and look than anything else. grind to me is the key to cutting performance and domestic stuff falls short in that department.

What knives are you basing that conclusion on?

 

[MAS4T0]

you are about to bring out my swedish words again:biggrin::biggrin:

so you think forge welding is all the same no matter how or by who it is prodused?

Handmade forge welded damascus by a skilled craftsman has a much higher value and is more beatiful sharper than a machine spitting out 300yards an hour if you ask me

i rest my case

If there are no weld flaws there's no functional difference.

I do like the option to select a pattern of my choosing, but I am also very fond of the pattern on my Stainless Z-Kramer parer.

Hand made Damascus is an expensive thing to produce, if you want a cheap knife with Damascus it will invariably be machine made or of incredibly low quality. I'd prefer cheap machine made Damascus then cheap hand made Damascus.

 

[JohnnyChance]

I agree with MAS4T0 and panda/mistacoopa to an extent. I have a ton of knives, both American and Japanese made. I have bought more Japanese knives of late than American, but I also started buying customs too early in my collecting. Once I was comfortable spending more than $300 or so on a knife, I thought, why not spend a little bit more and get a custom instead? Sure, the Japanese make really nice knives in the $100-250 range, but with at least a few makers, once you are in that $350-500 range, you get some amazing performers that are finished really nicely as well. I skipped those the first time around and went back recently and bought them. And for the most part, yes, they do the job better than most of their American counterparts. I thought I had knives that cut really well, but until you use one (and are capable of noticing/appreciating its capabilities) you don't realize what a really excellent cutter feels like.

It can also be very hard to be objective about your new & expensive purchase. You want it to be amazing. That combined with the fact that not everyone is as skilled at evaluating a knife as everyone else, I frankly don't trust most people's assessment of their knives. That includes people on and off this forum.

There is obviously value in custom knives, you get steel, configuration, handle material, etc options that you normally don't from a Japanese maker. And some of them do cut as good as anything out there. It is just a different set of expectations and value from the Japanese perspective. When it comes down to cutting ability & value, especially for a pro cook, Japanese wins every time.

 

[marc4pt0]

I'm going to go back and read from Sabaki's comments, but I want to make it clear that I do not dislike Japanese knives, and I, in fact, still love them. I've just noticed that my knives are slowly but surely becoming more and more "American Made" (except Will and Pierre). It's not been something I've done intentionally, but rather something that has just happened. Great knives are great knives, regardless of where they are made. Without the Japanese kitchen knives we so often discuss and heap praise upon, the American makers of today would still be making fancy versions of German knives.

A Shigefusa is an incredible knife, as is one made by Michael Rader. A Heiji is great, much like a Harner. Tanakas are wonderful pieces, as are Tsourkans. Place of origin doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things, but what does matter is the understanding and skill of the smith making your piece.

I like everything this guy just said.

I will also agree with much, but not all, of Johnnychance just said.
My Kochi, Konosuke Fujiyama, Moritaka, and Shig all performed on levels that are hard to beat. Now these are the highest I've gone with Japanese knives, and I'm aware there are many great, if not better ones out there. In fact, the 240 Sakai Yusuke I picked up off the Bay was down right amazing. And that was like what, $250 shipped?

A good knife is just that,a good knife. What I think might be the bee's knees, one might think is crapolyaye.

And I'm glad to see WillC chime in, this guy is making amazing stuff and he's in the UK. So take that, America and Japan...

 

[Zwiefel]

I will do this for you...but only b/c I love you want you to be happy. Send me that Takeda/Caviar Server right away.

I'm about to go to 100% Richmond knives made by Lamson.
Will you guys please take my crappy Japanese made knives from me?

 

[labor of love]

the american makers focus more on fit & finish and look than anything else. grind to me is the key to cutting performance and domestic stuff falls short in that department.

Sorry guys, but Panda is correct here. When it comes to actual good grinds and cutting performance american makers have alot of catching up to do. I know its wrong to bite the hand that feeds, and this forum probably wouldnt even exist without all the american vendors but its the truth as Ive experienced it.

 

[Von blewitt]

You can't lump all US makers in one box, some make knives with exceptional grinds others not so much. The same can be said for Japanese makers. I'll agree that on a Dollar for Dollar basis Japanese knives offer better value. But I don't base my purchases soley on value for money. And am happy with the range of knives I have at the moment which is a mix of both.

 

[labor of love]

You can't lump all US makers in one box, some make knives with exceptional grinds others not so much. The same can be said for Japanese makers. I'll agree that on a Dollar for Dollar basis Japanese knives offer better value. But I don't base my purchases soley on value for money. And am happy with the range of knives I have at the moment which is a mix of both.

Youre right. However this thread seems to be founded on generalizations about makers based on their nationality. So if others are willing to speak generally then so am I. And generally speaking American makers fall behind in practically every category with the only exception being custom handles.

 

[Von blewitt]

I don't agree with that.... Different strokes

 

[Chuckles]

For me, one you get to the $500 mark in a gyuto you are buying something that goes beyond getting a tool to cut food. You are just indulging past that point and you should be able to get what you want for special features.

At $600-700 range I have had a Rader 'mid tech' and a Watanabe Honyaki. Both were great knives. My opinion was that I would probably rather have a cheaper Watanabe that I wouldn't mind being a little harder on and that I would like a more expensive Rader to get his full F&F shock and awe routine. It all depends on what you are looking for from a knife or from the maker.

I have found that I really favor weight distribution in a knife. So many japanese knives come with generic handles that throw off the balance too much for me. I like that many of the American makers put so much thought into the handle and the whole package of the knife often saya included.

That being said my Itou knives with western stag handles hit me right in my spot the same way the American makers do with weight distribution, comfort and aesthetics. And my Devin ITK has one the best simple, elegant, precisely crafted Wa handles I have used.

If you know what you want you can find a Japanese maker that is making exactly that and doing it very well. Depending on what you are looking for you may be able to find an American maker that does it every bit as well as his/her Japanese counterpart.


And to answer the question: I am leaning towards American made knives at work lately. Marko, 2 Mario, 2 Ealy, 2 Harner. At home it is 2 Itou, Takeda, Watanabe.

Go figure.

 

[MikeHL]

Youre right. However this thread seems to be founded on generalizations about makers based on their nationality. So if others are willing to speak generally then so am I. And generally speaking American makers fall behind in practically every category with the only exception being custom handles.

I hate to generalize but I have to agree, most of the American blade making talent is making hunting knives and fighters. While they look cool I don't think they make good kitchen knives. Of course are are exceptions but we are speaking generally. Tho once we get up to the the high $ customs its more about the skill of the maker then his/her nationality.

That being said, the Japanese are light years ahead of anyone in producing high quality mid range $ (2-400) cutlery. They still having a cutlery industry amazing blades in vast quantities. What would be awesome if there was a North American Manufacturer that can go toe to toe with the Japanese.

 

[Chuckles]

That being said, the Japanese are light years ahead of anyone in producing high quality mid range $ (2-400) cutlery. They still having a cutlery industry amazing blades in vast quantities. What would be awesome if there was a North American Manufacturer that can go toe to toe with the Japanese.

Yup.

 

[Chefu]

This is a great thread -- provoking a lot of good debate. Without our fine Japanese cutlery we wouldn't have the later "Western makers" getting into the kitchen knife business. I wish I could say which I like better, but unfortunately I'm still waiting for a chance to own most of the American made knives. The "best can only be objective to a point", and then, like food itself, it becomes subjective. Besides the fact that so many of us on the forums look for performance, there are many more that weigh that performance along with the pure art or craftsmanship of the knife itself. If not, we wouldn't be shelling out more than $400 for any given knife. One thing I can say is, that after seeing what both the high level Japanese and American makers put out, it's hard to see how they are getting rich on such fine tools. O.K. except Mr. Kramer I applaud both Eastern and Western makers for what they do.

 

[CB1968]

Everyone has a different opinion of a great knife, I love my Japanese knives but I also love my US and European knives, they are all different and have pros and cons, i have a nice selection of different knives from various makers and I honestly enjoy using all of them, when I am done I pass the knife on and try something different this is a great way of trying different grinds, steels, profiles etc without going broke, I take my hat off to the craftsmen that make these awesome tools and I only wish I had half their talent.

 

[Salty dog]

Where to start?

I wouldn't generalize. Most of the makers I've used, both foreign and domestic have specific characteristics. If you're familiar with those characteristics you can choose a knife that will fit your specific need.
I also will say the North American makers have come a long way in the last few years. Especially with cutting performance.
In my top five two are Japanese and three North American. I think it would be reasonable to say I've used a few.
I also agree in the sub $400 category Japanese stands out.

 

[XooMG]

I have had issues with email correspondence with many makers and vendors about details, both in Japanese and English. Those details help me figure out whether a particular purchase is up my alley or not. I'm not particularly keen on waiting several months on a gamble for a blade that might not suit my cutting style because the maker couldn't be arsed to talk a bit about their geometry.

 

[Mucho Bocho]

I was just curious was Misacoopa didn't like about Non-Japanese made knives. I'm not arguing because I agree with him to an extent.

I liken American knives to American craft beer. Anyone can buy brewing equipment and develop their own recipe and can brew beer. It might even get it to taste pretty good. Then compare that same style of beer to one that has been brewed for hundreds of years. You'll find that on the surface they both taste similar, the much older recipe will have greater depth of character, subtle nuance that make it far superior.

I'll admit to not having owned many us Knife Makers I've used Haburn, Marko, Forgecraft, MAC).

So far the only custom I can justify is my DT ITK. I have a WS Kramer Meiji too but I'm not sure you can call that American made. The DT is my reference cutter however, on par are my Kono. Wide Double Bevel Ginsan's, the Yusuke Sakai.

Most of my knives are Japanese for a reason, because I believe that they have mastered a craft that is not easily reproduced.

 

[WiscoNole]

i have zero interest in ANY of the american knives.

same. they just don't have the same allure and mystique.