Anyone else moving toward All American Makers?

[TDj]

This is a fascinating thread. As someone who came over from the old KF/FF days, back when we were still buying knives from korin and jck, when the big dogs people aspired to were primarily Shigefusa and Itou and Hattori KD (and waiting for a powdered steel Hattori FH), when Suisin IH was "the" laser (Tadatsana was the newfound upstart) while Aritsugu A-type was "the" thick knife ... those were the days, right? I imagine I'll always have that nostalgic feeling when I see the kanji on the sides of a knife. While my American knife exposure is limited, there is something to be said about J knives that strikes an inexplicable chord with me. I liken it to how different old world and new world wines are to me: the new world has some great wines ... but there's something about the old world that gives it a bit of an edge for me.

 

[Chuckles]

I think the wine analogy is very apt.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

Let me expand. I have 3 ealys, I have two hhh ordered, I am going to get a dt, and a haburn.

That being said, I still stand by my statements. A few of the thousands of American makers that had great personal skill, who put in the work to learn, and who screwed up and learned from it, thus improving each time is not evidence that a highly technical skill is best learnd from the Internet vs the apprenticeship.

If you lumped all j knives in a pile and all American knives In a pile, I suspect there would be substantial tidally higher quality from the j knives.

My internet is out from the storms, and going into any real depth on my phone will take more effort than I'm willing to input tonight .

To hit the key points though:

First, how many Japanese makers do you think there are? This is an honest question, because I genuinely don't have the first clue. I can't imagine there's more than a couple hundred though. Maybe not even that. As a matter of fact, in my mind I imagine it to be substantially less than that. Regardless…for argument's sake, let's say 100. Of those, I only ever hear of a handful that stand out. This is important to my point.

Now, you mention thousands of American makers. I'm pretty active in those circles, and couldn't name 1000 proficient makers. I'm sure you're right that there is, but we both know we're not discussing every last American smith here. We're talking the well known, the guys you're willing to give more than $700 to for a gyuto…the top say…100? Of those, there's more than a handful that I hear about regularly. But that's probably a matter of where I am and my exposure.

Anyhow, THOSE are the guys I'm comparing, not the general population of US blacksmiths that have banged out a knife. And honestly, very few of those guys I'm talking about have had any benefit from even being second generation bladesmiths, much less thousands of years of tradition. The fact that they're even being compared says a hell of a lot about the benefits of being free to learn and explore without the shackles of tradition. One generation of American bladesmithing tradition, and there they are, within a hair's breadth of a culture that's been producing this product since what…the 1300's?

Now, understand…I'm being the devil's advocate here to an extent. With the attention to detail, and absolute focus that's part and parcel of the Japanese culture…if they WERE free to explore things as the US makers do…wow. But the bonds of tradition (as maintained by the apprenticeship system in place) still have them cold forging, edge packing, and heat treating by eye.

I firmly believe that with the rate of improvement even the last five years have shown in high end US kitchen cutlery, you guys will be in for some real treats in the next five. You mentioned Ian's knives as one of your intended future purchases. Look at the grind on his latest tall gyuto. Pretty cool, and I know first hand that he's not the first to do it .

Just some things to thin about.

Oh, and Charlie, you're absolutely right. Apprenticeship will push out proficiency in volume, for certain. However, I still believe that being free to learn without the binding of that system will produce a higher level of proficiency, although likely with a more limited volume.

 

[panda]

old world: all the work has already been done, and it's a matter of refining the knowledge and techniques already laid out.

new world: gonna make an unpopular opinion here and just say it 'posers', deviate as much as you want and call it 'freedom' but just because it's something new does not mean it's any good let alone better than an original that has been fine tuned.

 

[CrisAnderson27]

old world: all the work has already been done, and it's a matter of refining the knowledge and techniques already laid out.

new world: gonna make an unpopular opinion here and just say it 'posers', deviate as much as you want and call it 'freedom' but just because it's something new does not mean it's any good let alone better than an original that has been fine tuned.

Unless the knowledge and techniques in place are in fact metallurgically or otherwise wrong, you bet. And just because its something new does not mean it sucks and is at all worse than an original that has been fine tuned.

Here's the thing though, you speak of refining knowledge and techniques already laid out, as though it would be impossible for an American smith to take those same techniques and do the same. That makes zero sense.

Honestly, look at it like this. Charcoal forges are great. Propane forges are more efficient, and PID controlled heat treat ovens or high temperature salts are superior to both, in virtually every aspect. But by your logic, a bladesmith is a 'poser' for taking advantage of those tools. Because that is exactly the kind of improvements I'm talking about. Another example. Jon just bought about the best 2x72 belt grinder money can purchase. Does that make him a 'poser' as well? Good logic holds up across the board, you can't pick and choose where its applied. If by your commentary one is a 'poser' for exploring new (sometimes radically so) technology to improve upon old, we're all posers.

And seriously, using thecword 'poser' to describe a person is more of a blatantly 'rude' comment, rather than just 'unpopular'. Not saying that's how you meant it, but that's how it comes across. Where I'm from calling someone a 'poser' is about the same as spitting in their faces. Its combative in a rather aggressive way.



I should probably duck out of this one guys. Its obvious I'm being misunderstood. I have nothing against tradition and even holding to it when warranted. I've also said that I feel that non-Japanese smiths could take many lessons from their Japanese counterparts.

That doesn't make the fact that they could do the same any less true, nor does it take away from the huge leaps westerners have taken in the last however many years in improving this art. 'Posers' or not.

 

[29palms]

I think there are those that use and have a great knowledge of what they use and there are tinkerers who see the potential in 'READY MADE' work and a lot of us fall into that category. Then there are those of us who genuinely want to learn the trade, but our only avenues are things like forums and video.

 

[CB1968]

A good knife is good knife, buy more knives so you can make your own founded judgements and opinions, sell the ones you don't like and buy some more eventually you will end up with a collection of knives that you will have issues as to which one to use (because they are all so awesome), I love some of my Japanese knives but I also love some of my non Japanese knives, notice I have included the word some, that is because it is difficult to heap everything into Japanese and non Japanese, I have had crap Japanese knives and I have had crap non Japanese knives, go out investigate and try different steels, makers and grinds you will soon know what and where your preferences lie.

 

[Casaluz]

My only experience has been with Carter and it was almost by chance. I am very happy I did it