Anyone else moving toward All American Makers?

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So let me get this staight...... even though I agree with the two thousand years of tradition..... to say that, with the advancements in technology, all customs are inferior & have absolutely no place in a j-knife conversation, to me is just stupid & closed minded. IMO
 
Whoa, the OP solicited opinions and opinions are what he's getting. Lots of them. Don't think that anyone's opinions are stupid or that opinions of opinions are whats being asked for.

For me, stainless clad knives work best and I find these mostly available from Japanese makers. This is where I'll start looking when considering future purchases. That's not to say I'm giving up my Marko petty, Ealy "line" knife and parers, Carters or Harners. Nor Shigs, Tads or Suisins.
 
cheflarge said:
So let me get this staight...... even though I agree with the two thousand years of tradition..... to say that, with the advancements in technology, all customs are inferior & have absolutely no place in a j-knife conversation, to me is just stupid & closed minded. IMO
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I don't think anyone said they have no place in the conversation. In fact, we are having a conversation right now that includes them. I have a pile of custom knives. Nearly one from every maker. Ones I don't have, I have handled or used in most cases. I like them all, I love some of them and others I would never part with. But I love them for entirely different reasons than why I love my Japanese made knives. And for me, which is personal opinion, when it comes down to value and cutting performance, the Japanese do have American makers beat. That is why I love them. I love my American (or Western) made knives for their customization, working with the craftsman to get what I want, for usually cutting very, very well, for their modern steel, uniqueness, etc, etc. They are great in a different way and usually cost more, sometimes 2, 3, 4 times as much. But again for me personally, after collecting for a long time as a professional cook, I have decided that the value offered by Japanese knives in terms of functionality and cutting performance is unmatched. So far.
 
This thread is totally not one sided and there have been a lot of great points raised on both sides, so I think it has been constructive. I actually received a comment from someone remarking on how civilized this thread was for the debate it generated.
 
I'm leaning more and more towards American makers. That's not to say that I find Japanese knives inferior, or vice versa. If I were a professional chef, I would probably go more towards Japanese right now, for the main reason, that I would be sharpening the knife to the point where, given ten or fifteen years, it would be worn to a nub. My own belief right now is that, since my sharpening is limited to every few months right now, I know the knives I have will last my lifetime, and I'll probably get to pass them down. I'm taking a gamble in thinking that the American knives will be worth more in the future (I believe this due to cultural differences that I won't get into right now). So for my lifestyle, I'm justifying that move. We all have different criteria for picking a knife, and nothing is right or wrong, as long as it makes sense to you.

This is not to say that I won't ever buy a Japanese blade again, but for the time being, my focus is pointed elsewhere.

That being said, I don't think a country of origin marks whether a knife is good or bad, but the maker's own determination in creating a blade from scratch.
 
panda said:
here's one for extreme - if you put a zakuri and one of the murcan customs in front of me, guess which one i would pick up to use? hint: not the pretty one.
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Unless you also specify the reasons behind this decision, it sounds pretty fanatical. I'm a big fan of Zakuri knives myself, but there's a big difference between high end custom US knives (I'm referencing to Rader, Burke, Marko, DT or many others).

If I pay over 400$ for a custom kitchen knife, I expect it to both perform flawlessly and have a great F&F. No matters where this knife was made.

Speaking on the thread topic, I think all generalizations are pretty inaccurate (including this one). "moving All Amerikan Makers" is a very broad statement… I haven't seen many KKF members moving to All American Rada cutlery for example :) Being a non US member, I'm lacking any patriotic feelings about US makers (or any other makers for that matters), so my choice is based purely on the expectations about performance and look&feel. So far I have only one custom knife, and it was made by Canadian maker, so it's too early for me to talk about them. But I'm currently waiting to get knives from DT and Marko. There are also custom knife makers from Russia and Poland that I'd like to get knives from one day, so for me country of origin isn't a deciding factor.
 
This is a REALLY interesting topic to me...but since I'm kind of a biased party, I don't feel it's really right to give my opinion lol. Suffice it to say I'm curious what all of your opinions are (and why)...and am content to follow along :).

Carry on!
 
What a great thread!

I'm with Panda, the performance of J-knives overall (in comparable price range) is much better than their North American counterparts.

My favorite knife from outside of Japan is actually German (Tilman Leder). Not saying better, but every bit as good in the performance as well as fit and finish as any NA knife I've had the pleasure to own or use (OK, Marko has the best fit and finish, but other than that...). Seriously, Leder makes one of the best performers period, and his price and turnaround exceeds everyone except maybe Heiji who can pump out a knife...speaking of performance we wind up back in Japan.

Not to say that the NA makers aren't putting out great products, hopefully they will stay inspired to match or even exceed their counterparts in Japan. Just trying to keep it real here. :running:
 
Have been holding off this thread, because I am new to the technical side of knives, but it's hard to argue with generations of training and an apprenticeship system as compared to many who are simply self taught.

Very general statement and I see no reason on a case by case basis there is any correlation between county and quality.
 
I think the existence of a forum like this one puts the 'simply selt taught' aspect into a grey area. New ways for rapid sharing and demonstration of knowledge make the development of these new 'modern' makers a fascinating process to watch. It is like watching evolution through time lapse photography. Someone like Marko has an army of Chef's for critical feedback, Devin for coaching on heat treat, Shigefusa and Mizuno to inspire grinds, Carter and Kramer to unlock the American market, and a whole internet community to egg him on.

I think this is actually the reason I am leaning toward American makers right now.
 
Salty dog said:
Where to start?

I wouldn't generalize. Most of the makers I've used, both foreign and domestic have specific characteristics. If you're familiar with those characteristics you can choose a knife that will fit your specific need.
I also will say the North American makers have come a long way in the last few years. Especially with cutting performance.
In my top five two are Japanese and three North American. I think it would be reasonable to say I've used a few.
I also agree in the sub $400 category Japanese stands out.
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Agree I never had a do it all knife, found several different blades for various tasks. All my work knives were Japanese as said because not willing to spend big bucks when had good performing blades that I wore down with use. I know am biased toward Japanese knives for how well they cut.

I have not owned any American customs. Have sharpened a couple Carters. Was pretty impressed with those knives. Know you use knives a lot, so having a few American blades in your kit says it. If someone wants a really nice custom and has the money go for it. Nothing wrong with pride of ownership of a stunning blade & handle.
 
Still do like my Yoshimitsu Tamahagane. It is high bevel super thin below the bevel glides through food. I noticed A-Frames sold out of the 210 wa gyuto's but ordered two more. So I guess someone else out there has a Yoshimitsu. They are relatively rare as Tamahagane kitchen knives nobody goes to that much labor & the brothers are very old.

The knife use the most is Konosuke Fujiyama blue#2 240mm gyuto. Another high bevel knife. Like the geometry of the carbon high bevel blades. Bought a couple more carbons at good price on BST here. An older Takeda 270mm which rehandled and a Singatirin V2 Honyaki. Everyone has different likes in knives respect that. I lean toward Japanese hand forged carbons.
 
This has been a great thread and very civil thank you. I enjoyed the discussion volley and the diversity of opinions and seriously I never meant to ruffle anyone's feathers. Tho some of y'all did tip your hands. :groucho:
 
Chuckles said:
I think the existence of a forum like this one puts the 'simply selt taught' aspect into a grey area. New ways for rapid sharing and demonstration of knowledge make the development of these new 'modern' makers a fascinating process to watch. It is like watching evolution through time lapse photography. Someone like Marko has an army of Chef's for critical feedback, Devin for coaching on heat treat, Shigefusa and Mizuno to inspire grinds, Carter and Kramer to unlock the American market, and a whole internet community to egg him on.

I think this is actually the reason I am leaning toward American makers right now.
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For reasons I can't go into here, I feel this is one of the most astute observations I've ever seen on the forums. I've handled a few Japanese knives in the last year, and honestly they're relatively impressive given their price point. Simple, but still impressive. The truly funny thing is, it's the simple qualities in them that ALLOW them to be impressive. Ultra thin core steel with soft iron cladding doesn't warp in the heat treat the way monosteel blades do. This means they can beat them thin thin thin with a hollow behind the blade road, heat treat them (no need to spend hours straightening them after heat treat, or lose 3 of 5 blades to warpage), then grind a secondary bevel/edge on them in 15 minutes and bam...you have a stiff knife that's ultra thin and nothing sticks to it...for far less than a similarly performing blade from a non-Japanese maker. Most non-Japanese custom makers have a far, far different process, and the price reflects it. Add to that, that a number of the custom makers are a one man show, supporting their family off of their work, as compared to a small business venture with employees and far greater volume capabilities, and the pricing suddenly makes sense.

If you'll note, I never said 'American' makers. I think the real comparison here is the Japanese vs everyone else. Makers like Will and Pierre face the same issues that custom American makers do. Custom knives from outside of Japan are all going to be similar in terms of fit and finish and overall quality. This isn't the sole province of American smiths, whereas the 'small factory' mindset...regardless of the end quality of the knife...is really very Asian.

Though, Murray is currently pushing a similar methodology here in the US. But...then again, he learned it somewhere...where was that again...?

:)
 
I think you'd be surprised by how much time is spent straightening... even on clad blades. I swear i straighten when making knives more than anything else that i do. Clad knives, mono steel, etc. Just different ways everyone straightens there than here.
 
So Jon are you saying the small American "crafters" are paying more attention to detail and craft than the Japanese production shops?
 
29palms said:
So Jon are you saying the small American "crafters" are paying more attention to detail and craft than the Japanese production shops?
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No... Rather that straightening processes are different and Japan does indeed spend a lot of time straightening too
 
I'm sorry but do we really believe reading something here translates to the equivalent of having a master craftsman teaching you for a generation?

In a craft manufacturing system, there is no substitute for an apprenticeship.
 
I guess my take on the impact of a forum like this one goes beyond just reading posts. It includes developing relationships, exchanging ideas and experiences, get togethers, hammer-ins, visits to master smith shops, trips to japan etc... These are things the makers here do and the internet and this forum definitely help foster these relationships and experiences.

Other aspects like the modern heat treat oven help take a step like heat treating and make it executable without needing to spend years learning how to judge the color of the steel while in the coals of the fire.

In a craft manufacturing system, there is no substitute for an apprenticeship
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I would be one of the last people to devalue apprenticeship as a valuable learning process. I learned my craft (which is not knife making) through low wage apprenticeship style work and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I do also credit Julia Child with Master Chefs videos (from the internet) as playing a role in my development years.

The overhead costs incurred by utilizing new technologies available to the modern knife maker play a large part in why custom knives from outside Japan often have a higher price point. A coal forge, a hammer, a sen, a grinding wheel, some stones, and a few apprentices definitley helps drive prices down when compared to multiple 2X72 grinders, an evenheat oven, power hammer, dust extraction, cryo materials, and a solo head of household maker. The current exchange rate certainly helps the american and european customer as well.

Please do not take this as me being against non american makers. I have my first Shigefusa on the way and I am very excited to get it into rotation!
 
Chuckles said:
I guess my take on the impact of a forum like this one goes beyond just reading posts. It includes developing relationships, exchanging ideas and experiences, get togethers, hammer-ins, visits to master smith shops, trips to japan etc... These are things the makers here do and the internet and this forum definitely help foster these relationships and experiences.

Other aspects like the modern heat treat oven help take a step like heat treating and make it executable without needing to spend years learning how to judge the color of the steel while in the coals of the fire.



I would be one of the last people to devalue apprenticeship as a valuable learning process. I learned my craft (which is not knife making) through low wage apprenticeship style work and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But I do also credit Julia Child with Master Chefs videos (from the internet) as playing a role in my development years.

The overhead costs incurred by utilizing new technologies available to the modern knife maker play a large part in why custom knives from outside Japan often have a higher price point. A coal forge, a hammer, a sen, a grinding wheel, some stones, and a few apprentices definitley helps drive prices down when compared to multiple 2X72 grinders, an evenheat oven, power hammer, dust extraction, cryo materials, and a solo head of household maker. The current exchange rate certainly helps the american and european customer as well.

Please do not take this as me being against non american makers. I have my first Shigefusa on the way and I am very excited to get it into rotation!
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Again, spot on. Every single bit of it.

Particularly the part in bold though. I wanted to make sure I wasn't misunderstood. I have an immeasurable level of respect for the Japanese culture and their results in just about every arena...not just bladesmithing. Some of the ways the Japanese are doing things are definitely ways non-Japanese smiths could learn to emulate to their benefit. As Jon mentioned, straightening for example. Two edge slotted 2x4's, and a 2x4 with a hole slotted in the center (all three with handles roughed in on them) can be a game changer for a non-Japanese smith who is used to straightening with a vice. You can remove twists, bends, waffled edges...etc, all with the strength of your own hands. Generations of learning passed down that started with straightening swords that had taken a set...aren't to be discounted. That said (and I know Jon mentioned straightening monosteel blades as well...I'm not entirely sure how this applies to that in a Japanese smithy), straightening a monosteel blade out of a high carbon US steel...at the level of hardness we require for performance...is something you do at tempering heat, and not below...unless you like your blades in pieces. We all just have different methods developed from different experiences...and everyone is trying to apply them to the same end goal.

Vesteroid said:
I'm sorry but do we really believe reading something here translates to the equivalent of having a master craftsman teaching you for a generation?

In a craft manufacturing system, there is no substitute for an apprenticeship.
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Honestly, this is completely untrue when taken on an individual basis. I know a couple of American makers whose work I'd put up against the best Japanese made blades out there...with money on the outcome, both in and out of the kitchen. None of them had anyone to teach them but the internet, and their own hard work and dedication. Some of the American swordsmiths working in the Japanese style have done so much to further the performance of those blades its not even funny...all without the benefit of an apprenticeship system. Added to that, some of the most ridiculous forging and heat treating methods I've ever heard have come from American smiths trained by Japanese masters. I can name two specifically, though I won't out of an abiding respect for the men themselves. Both are considered masters in their own right, by the way.

Traditions formed by the apprenticeship system can often be a shackle...probably in equal measure to how much experience passed on in the same systems can be a benefit. In my opinion this applies universally.
 
Let me expand. I have 3 ealys, I have two hhh ordered, I am going to get a dt, and a haburn.

That being said, I still stand by my statements. A few of the thousands of American makers that had great personal skill, who put in the work to learn, and who screwed up and learned from it, thus improving each time is not evidence that a highly technical skill is best learnd from the Internet vs the apprenticeship.

If you lumped all j knives in a pile and all American knives In a pile, I suspect there would be substantial tidally higher quality from the j knives.
 
untrue when taken on an individual basis
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If you lumped all j knives in a pile and all American knives In a pile
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We are getting into apple and oranges territory here. I would agree that while it is certainly possible for a hyper-motivated individual to become a first class bladesmith with just internet based learning if the goal is many many competent bladesmiths than the apprentice system is much more effiecient.
 
Just a couple of thoughts -

1 - I think of "custom" in terms of a one off custom order. That said I have acquired knives from some great makers here in the states and I would include Pierre and anyone in North America as "American" What got me started was a Carter I got for 25% off, then Del Ealy ran a special run, then I picked up a used Devin in AEB-L then one in 52100, then a HHH, then a Marko "practice gyuto", then a Rader (thank you Chuck). Not "custom" work, but everyday production work where the rubber meets the road. Besides a slew of vintage carbon I have these guys are really taking kitchen cutlery in a new direction both aesthetically and performance wise. I would love to try a Burk, Mario, Martell, and a few others, but I'm not resource rich.

2 - Look how the members of this forum have inspired many to attempt a rehandle, buy equipment, set up home shops and really explore the tools we use in the kitchen every day. Look at Stereo Pete - what a nice garage space shop he has now - and he's doing it, getting feedback from every action, discovering the craft. I recently purchased a 2x72 belt grinder and am looking for a decent anvil and will probably build a forge next year and who knows. The limit is the desire to commit to the learning curve and that has been tempered some thanks to the internet and the professionals and amateurs willing to share what they know and love.
 
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