Espresso nerds in the house?

[OkayMode]

this probably need a questionnaire more complicated than knife questionnaire

This is probably one of the reasons I haven’t bothered before

In terms of budget, footprint, warm up time etc I suppose I’m more fishing for what setup the needs would go for in ‘my friend’s’ position in order to get good results without spending a fortune.

 

[nhb22]

This is probably one of the reasons I haven’t bothered before

In terms of budget, footprint, warm up time etc I suppose I’m more fishing for what setup the needs would go for in ‘my friend’s’ position in order to get good results without spending a fortune.

agree with @PeterL

at least like a Cafelat Robot/Flair 58

these are good options.

A lot of people's gateway machine is Breville dual boiler - pretty much the only thing that's cheaper in Australia...you have to check the UK price

If I were you, I would do Breville. you might get lazy with manual levers. There are a lot more things you can play with on a Breville.

 

[Naftoor]

I’ve been a big fan of the 9barista. Started with that and the 1zpresso k ultra (I’d probably start with the j ultra next time). Can go from deciding I want a shot to drinking it in 4-7 minutes, foot print is about the size of a small moka pot. It’s a heat powered spring lever, so pretty fool proof. You can get fancy with removing it from the heat for things like descending profiles otherwise it gives roughly a straight 9bar with a brief preinfusion.

Only downsides is that it doesn’t do milk, and while doing 2 shots is fine you won’t be doing 7-8, but the nice thing is I don’t have to worry about preheating gear like with the manual levers.

As mentioned the brevilles are probably a good option to try. Available very cheaply used, just don’t be tempted to use the pressurized portafilters

 

[ehhh]

I personally find those portable lever machines like the Flair 58 really fiddly to use, having used my friend's for a few days while visiting. They can crank out good espresso, but it's a process that I wouldn't find enjoyable on a daily basis. Even with the electric heater, ideally you need to preheat the water chamber with boiling water a couple times. You'd need a stovetop steamer or a frothing wand to do your milk, and wands just can't compare to actual steamed milk.

I would recommend against a Gaggia Classic unless you want to tinker and mod it. A PID is almost a necessity, and even then the tiny boiler is a limiting factor for lighter roasts and longer shots. Breville/Sage are good options, I used one for a few years, though I'm not a huge fan of the 54mm machines. Not as much aftermarket support for 54mm. The thermoblock steam on them is also pretty underwhelming, takes a long time and hard to get good results with.

I don't know what UK prices are like, but you'd probably looking at a $1500+ machine here in the US for something that can grow with you, and $300-500 for a "good enough" grinder or quite a bit more for something closer to end game. At that level of machine, the limiting factor is really going to be the grinder.

 

[mengwong]

UNPOPULAR OPINION​

Home espresso doesn’t scale. Without multiple avid drinkers under one roof, consumption can’t keep up with the beans. By the time you’re dialed in, which is a moving target anyways, it’s time for a new bag!

Pour-over is a perfectly respectable and much more forgiving Zen-like alternative to the finicky clattering steampunk monster. There are no catastrophic failure modes that a new $10 funnel can’t fix. The biggest disaster is running out of filters.

In the WAF department, she tends to be generally positive about the idea of getting a new gooseneck kettle with the sculptural artsy trimmings. She tends to be less positive about the squat chrome box that hogs counter space and always has a grimy bit of espresso powder underneath.

Speaking of dirt: at a cafe, someone is paid to perform the rituals the espresso machine demands: back flush, cleaning powder, brushing, steam wand maintenance, descaling, gasket replacement, grinder cleaning… but at home, you’re doing all that yourself. If you didn’t plumb in, you’re constantly refilling the water, and even if you did, you might still have to worry about growing a Scoby in the tank.

This is why the Italians compromise with a Moka pot at home: all the mess and scalding risk of a portafilter, plus stovetop incompatibility with induction, what’s not to love?

 

[Rangen]

It's a good rant. My counterpoint:

Never had trouble keeping up with the beans. Two doubles is what, 30g. Do that every day, and you've gone through a full pound in less than two weeks.

Dialed in? I occasionally adjust the grinder a notch or two one way or another, but just to optimize the pull difficulty. Mostly I don't. All the difficulty was in learning and setting everything in the first place.

My lever machine is not finicky, does not clatter, and doesn't seem to have many failure possibilities. As for WAF, it's less than 8" wide. A marriage that cannot stand that strain was not on firm ground to begin with.

The rituals are a bit involved. You spray the Washita with oil, sharpen, first with scrubbing strokes, then edge leading, alternating sides, deburr, testing to make sure it's gone, try a cut, go back to the stone until it's just right, then wipe, add fresh oil, wipe, then wipe the oil off the blade...wait, wrong ritual.

Oh, and pour-overs are insipid and wussy. Espresso only confirmed my opinion that coffee should have texture. French press for me.

 

[Vertigo]

 

[ethompson]

View attachment 317858

Mix a tablespoon of that into a Coca Cola and now we're talking

 

[M1k3]

View attachment 317858

Fun fact, not only is cheap instant coffee cheap, it's also good to use as an enchant on knives.

 

[Vertigo]

Fun fact, not only is cheap instant coffee cheap, it's also good to use as an enchant on knives.

Gonna polish my dragon and give this a shot in the next couple weeks. Curious how the etch holds up to constant use / washing / use / washing. Like is it an etch or a stain?

Having profound GI issues due to decades of ****** coffee I *assume* it's an etch, but gotta try it anyways xD

 

[M1k3]

Gonna polish my dragon and give this a shot in the next couple weeks. Curious how the etch holds up to constant use / washing / use / washing. Like is it an etch or a stain?

Having profound GI issues due to decades of ****** coffee I *assume* it's an etch, but gotta try it anyways xD

More a stain. Lasts a decent amount of time, but will disappear. Looks cool while it's around though.

 

[ethompson]

Still some fine tuning to do with the PID and such, but it lives again! Making terrific coffee already

 

[MarcelNL]

@OkayMode

You could also try one of the vintage home levers....
My start was with a Faema Faemina, there are plenty similar machines dating back to the 50-ies that are still going strong and were designed for home use.
The faemina is a spring lever, which makes the process a bit easier.

shown a red label Faemina like I have (meaning first series, all of the models will do equally well), a very clever design that is perfectly home servicable.
Major drawback is boiler capacity, 1.5L combined with a continuous steam bleeding pressure regulator makes the risk of cooking the heating elements kaputt a real one... other than that, stellar ristretto's time and time again.
(I only upgraded to the Urania to get a bigger boiler and a machine that can stay on for longer periods)

Have a look at Francesco Ceccarelli's collection and sales page http://www.francescoceccarelli.eu/onsale_eng.htm

(he is a great guy to deal with, and a true ecyclopedia on vintage home levers)

 

[nhb22]

UNPOPULAR OPINION​

Home espresso doesn’t scale. Without multiple avid drinkers under one roof, consumption can’t keep up with the beans. By the time you’re dialed in, which is a moving target anyways, it’s time for a new bag!

Pour-over is a perfectly respectable and much more forgiving Zen-like alternative to the finicky clattering steampunk monster. There are no catastrophic failure modes that a new $10 funnel can’t fix. The biggest disaster is running out of filters.

In the WAF department, she tends to be generally positive about the idea of getting a new gooseneck kettle with the sculptural artsy trimmings. She tends to be less positive about the squat chrome box that hogs counter space and always has a grimy bit of espresso powder underneath.

Speaking of dirt: at a cafe, someone is paid to perform the rituals the espresso machine demands: back flush, cleaning powder, brushing, steam wand maintenance, descaling, gasket replacement, grinder cleaning… but at home, you’re doing all that yourself. If you didn’t plumb in, you’re constantly refilling the water, and even if you did, you might still have to worry about growing a Scoby in the tank.

This is why the Italians compromise with a Moka pot at home: all the mess and scalding risk of a portafilter, plus stovetop incompatibility with induction, what’s not to love?

There are a lot of view points here that I disagree. Instead of debating those points, let me provide another potentially unpopular opinion. If you don’t have a decent (not the brand) machine at home and you like espresso, you almost have no option in terms of getting good espresso. The goal of the commercial shops is to crank out reasonably ok coffee as fast as they can with reasonable quality beans. I can’t ask a shop to use the bean I want to try. I can’t ask the barista to take 10 minutes to make my coffee as perfect as it can be. Regular commercial shops can not and will not do pressure profiling even if they use a Slayer (arabica as an example). I dare to say my home coffee is better than any coffee I can reasonably find in midtown Manhattan, at least to me.if you order a cortado, at least 8 out of 10 places in NYC will overheat the milk in my experience. Do I think Starbucks (with all the resource they have) can’t make better coffee than me? No, I don’t think that. Do I think Starbucks is not interested in making great coffee given their business model? Absolutely yes.

 

[MarcelNL]

You can perfectly scale home espresso, all you need a is a decent espresso machine, like a Cafelat Robot, a La Pavoni (new or vintage) and a good grinder (buy a used shop grinder , clean it and put in a new burr set)
It won't set you back more than a few hundred and with some investment of time and effort you'll indeed make better espresso and milk based drinks than any pro shop around you BUT for the very few GREAT ones provided you get decent software (roasted beans).

 

[hendrix]

I’m seeing the WAF acronym here and there in this thread but the only thing I can find online is web application firewall but given the context here I’m thinking something to do with wife or woman?

Please help me out.

…In the WAF department, she tends to be generally positive about the idea of getting a new gooseneck kettle with the sculptural artsy trimmings. She tends to be less positive about the squat chrome box that hogs counter space and always has a grimy bit of espresso powder underneath. …

 

[Naftoor]

There are a lot of view points here that I disagree. Instead of debating those points, let me provide another potentially unpopular opinion. If you don’t have a decent (not the brand) machine at home and you like espresso, you almost have no option in terms of getting good espresso. The goal of the commercial shops is to crank out reasonably ok coffee as fast as they can with reasonable quality beans. I can’t ask a shop to use the bean I want to try. I can’t ask the barista to take 10 minutes to make my coffee as perfect as it can be. Regular commercial shops can not and will not do pressure profiling even if they use a Slayer (arabica as an example). I dare to say my home coffee is better than any coffee I can reasonably find in midtown Manhattan, at least to me.if you order a cortado, at least 8 out of 10 places in NYC will overheat the milk in my experience. Do I think Starbucks (with all the resource they have) can’t make better coffee than me? No, I don’t think that. Do I think Starbucks is not interested in making great coffee given their business model? Absolutely yes.

Yup. Tried close to every non-chain cage near me now. My shots were better than what I’ve gotten from them within 10 shots of getting my machine. Espresso, is as much as sharpening an art. Cafes unfortunately pay artist rates, which means people who are good enough or passionate enough at the job either go on to sell beans, stick to YouTube/instagram, or leave. Just about every place I’ve been to is almost exclusively staffed by high schoolers or thereabouts, which isn’t condemning in its own right, but it’s a decent indication they don’t have people with sufficient experience to properly train them.

Espresso absolutely scales at home. So long as you aren’t the guy who buys a nurri or one of the many 5k+ double boiler machines that take 40 minutes to heat up and wasting tons of energy in process, or doing something dumb like me which is ordering a different bean every week to try and speed run finding the perfect bean. If you have a bean you like, order in large volume, and freeze it. Freshness won’t be impacted even if crema is. Other than that, buy a unit with an appropriately sized boiler unit so you have to do water changes frequently. The cleaning shouldn’t be needed as much as commercial places since they’re making 50x what your machine does in a week, in a day. Another reason I like the machine I have is clean up is part of putting it away, so as long as you’re putting through remineralized water cleaning and descaling are essentially nonexistent.

I’m seeing the WAF acronym here and there in this thread but the only thing I can find online is web application firewall but given the context here I’m thinking something to do with wife or woman?

Please help me out.

WAF = wife acceptance factor. Espresso machines tend to be incredibly large, grinders just as much and both take up valuable counter real estate. Things that are small form factor, not shiny or have rounded corners tend to have better acceptance from spouses because they don’t make your kitchen look like a coffee shop.

 

[SeattleB]

There are a lot of view points here that I disagree. Instead of debating those points, let me provide another potentially unpopular opinion. If you don’t have a decent (not the brand) machine at home and you like espresso, you almost have no option in terms of getting good espresso. The goal of the commercial shops is to crank out reasonably ok coffee as fast as they can with reasonable quality beans. I can’t ask a shop to use the bean I want to try. I can’t ask the barista to take 10 minutes to make my coffee as perfect as it can be. Regular commercial shops can not and will not do pressure profiling even if they use a Slayer (arabica as an example). I dare to say my home coffee is better than any coffee I can reasonably find in midtown Manhattan, at least to me.if you order a cortado, at least 8 out of 10 places in NYC will overheat the milk in my experience. Do I think Starbucks (with all the resource they have) can’t make better coffee than me? No, I don’t think that. Do I think Starbucks is not interested in making great coffee given their business model? Absolutely yes.

I live in Seattle and there are a few cafes that make world-class coffee. There are even several former national and world barista champions walking around. Yet I still want good coffee at home. More convenient and much less expensive. Can I match them? Honestly, no. I cannot figure out how David Schomer (Vivace Coffee owner) can make such consistent perfect coffee. But I still make it at home 'cause I can match any typical non-champion barista. So it's worth it to purchase the right tools even if espresso machines make knives look reasonably priced. Amortized over the life of the machine, coffee is cheap.

 

[SeattleB]

Espresso absolutely scales at home. So long as you aren’t the guy who buys a nurri or one of the many 5k+ double boiler machines that take 40 minutes to heat up and wasting tons of energy in process..."

WAF = wife acceptance factor. Espresso machines tend to be incredibly large, grinders just as much and both take up valuable counter real estate. Things that are small form factor, not shiny or have rounded corners tend to have better acceptance from spouses because they don’t make your kitchen look like a coffee shop.

Hey, hey, watch out...I resemble that first comment. The machine has a timer and turns on an hour before we get up. I doubt whether the annual energy usage equals even half of one trip to go hiking, so I'm not concerned.

Yes, our kitchen does look a bit like a coffee shop, smells like one too. It's no different than looking like a restaurant with the stove and hood. It's where food work gets done. It's gonna end up looking purposeful.

 

[jedy617]

Went to a huge roaster and cafe in West palm Beach on vacation. Never seen a slayer in person till then...and I cried because they didn't bother using the flow control and the shot looked way too fast. Was pretty meh. Best coffee I've had is at home.

 

[SeattleB]

A friend with a cafe says it's just not cost effective to train baristas to use a flow-control machine (or any other machine with lots of adjustments). The manual flow control machines are worse, in that they take the barista's continuous attention for the entire pour when they otherwise could be doing something else (setting up the next shot, talking to a customer, taking an order, steaming milk).

The better course (from an owner's POV) is to have a tasting session with the baristas, decide on a profile formula, and use a programmable machine so they can save the specific profile for that coffee bean/roast. They then use that profile formula for that bean/roast going forward, hit the button and let it do its thing. Three bean/roasts? Three profiles stored in machine memory.

 

[MarcelNL]

WAF or Wife Acceptance Factor is IMHO not a major issue with espresso machines once you have educated her and she is into proper coffee ;-)
Or simply not marry at all...most guys into high end audio are single ;-)

By the way, the warm up time and power use is a factor of boiler mass and heater power and shots pulled... ;-)

My Urania heats up like 3 Liters of water in 20-25minutes, My feamina heats up in 15 min....the Faemina is 11Kg of brass containing 1.5L of water of which 300-400ml or so gets transformed into espresso...

The heater of the urania cycles on and off, it's something 1300W and I estimate it has a 20-25% duty cycle...

About training Baristas....they do need training....and a machine they can handle...it;s one thing to have the owner buy a fancy pancy machine but unless the folks operating it know how to it's pointless.

Here in town we have two places with a Kees Van der Westen machine, and neither has staff that know how to use it which makes the result taste like battery acid.
One of the places has a KvdW Lever, and they should be best positioned, since all that takes is to dial in the grinder, but even that is too much.

 

[Naftoor]

Hey, hey, watch out...I resemble that first comment. The machine has a timer and turns on an hour before we get up. I doubt whether the annual energy usage equals even half of one trip to go hiking, so I'm not concerned.

Yes, our kitchen does look a bit like a coffee shop, smells like one too. It's no different than looking like a restaurant with the stove and hood. It's where food work gets done. It's gonna end up looking purposeful.

Oh I didn’t really mean any offense, I envy whatever your set up is because the nurri remains a dream machine for me. As a household that only does 2-3 coffees a day, and frequently sporadically through the day it’s just not a practical coffee solution for me. I think with 1-2 more coffee drinkers where I was doing 7-8 cups a day it’d be awesome since I wouldn’t feel as bad as heating up big boy boilers everyday then.

It’s nice to see units designed around more flexible warm up times like the argos, decent and the meticulous coming out that can both warm up super quick, and still do milk coming out.

 

[MarcelNL]

simply UP your coffee intake, we manage that between the two of us ;-)
(I work from home so it's my 'office machine')

(we threw a bunch of PV panels on the roof to a.o. offset the espresso habit)

 

[jedy617]

A friend with a cafe says it's just not cost effective to train baristas to use a flow-control machine (or any other machine with lots of adjustments). The manual flow control machines are worse, in that they take the barista's continuous attention for the entire pour when they otherwise could be doing something else (setting up the next shot, talking to a customer, taking an order, steaming milk).

The better course (from an owner's POV) is to have a tasting session with the baristas, decide on a profile formula, and use a programmable machine so they can save the specific profile for that coffee bean/roast. They then use that profile formula for that bean/roast going forward, hit the button and let it do its thing. Three bean/roasts? Three profiles stored in machine memory.

What I thought as well. But thats slayer's whole schtick, so I was like why do you guys even pay for that lol

 

[mengwong]

It’s nice to see units designed around more flexible warm up times like the argos, decent and the meticulous coming out that can both warm up super quick, and still do milk coming out.

This is true – my Decent warms up so fast it actually takes longer to weigh and grind 18g (Niche Duo).

And the Decent does flow-control too. Been getting creamy, more balanced extractions despite some channeling that I still haven’t solved.

 

[MarcelNL]

This is true – my Decent warms up so fast it actually takes longer to weigh and grind 18g (Niche Duo).

And the Decent does flow-control too. Been getting creamy, more balanced extractions despite some channeling that I still haven’t solved.

overdosing is a great way to create channeling!

 

[Rangen]

This is true – my Decent warms up so fast it actually takes longer to weigh and grind 18g (Niche Duo).

And the Decent does flow-control too. Been getting creamy, more balanced extractions despite some channeling that I still haven’t solved.

My channeling problems were solved by

Using a convex tamper
Adding a little ritual to the tamping where I slightly angle the tamper to do a little compress toward the edge in 4 different directions (or a continuous version of the same idea)

 

[MarcelNL]

I usually do a chant, it must work as I hardly ever see channeling ;-)

(sorry, could not resist...as a non believer tamperology other than finicking too much around with a tamper- now that can cause channeling)

 

[mockit]

I've got to say the old-school levers are pretty damn cool. One day I'll get on the home spro wagon. Connecticut espresso leaves much to be desired and it's a little overkill to drive 2 hours (Boston / NYC) for great coffee.