Espresso nerds in the house?

[mengwong]

Coming to a roaster near you: Bertie Bott’s Every Flavour Coffee Beans

 

[nopomo]

So, dialing in a new grinder and two new beans has been a hilariously predictable and amateurish mistake with an expected outcome.

Haven’t had much luck with destroyer. It’s got a ton of acidity (brightness as ya’ll who actually have palates would say I believe), but haven’t had much luck pulling much else out regardless of tweaks. There were a few that raised eyebrows and made people say there was something different about it they couldn’t put their finger on. Closest I got from them in describing it was a full taste. I have no idea what that means, but I also described a coffee as smelling ‘blue’ so I can’t judge. Suspecting there may not be much else in there, since nothing really stood out about it when cupping. Gotten the same general acidity with shot times running from 20 seconds to around 60 seconds (9barista so it behaves a touch differently than traditional machines).

Mass appeal however has been both frustrating and very interesting. Even to someone who thinks shallots are just an onion that got a massage from some garlic cloves, so that’s saying something. None of the sugar cookie and other notes they talk about, but a pretty surprising amount of sweetness when cupped. I had one shot that was almost perfect from it (tasted like there was a solid tsp of sugar added to the cup and it lasted for at least a few minutes after the last sip. Did not expect that at all from a coffee), but I made some tweaks to try and reduce the acidity on the next shot and was unfortunately 7 shots into testing so my notes were a mite disorganized. Considering ordering it again to try and recreate that flash in the pan.

Maybe ya’ll were right about coffee. I still think roasters should be required to list coffee as the main flavor though because I was HYPED for a creamsicle flavored one and incredibly disappointed by the results.

Maybe try Antithesis next time, that has the most “classic espresso” profile.

 

[Naftoor]

Maybe try Antithesis next time, that has the most “classic espresso” profile.

Thanks for the suggestion! I’m sure I’ll circle back to ceremony again eventually; I’ll grab some antithesis when I do. For now, trying to try as many different places as possible to figure out what exists and I like. Got some daterra Peabody from flight coffee co landing this week. Seen folks talking about it tasting peanutty which sounded like it could be fun

 

[ethompson]

Up to some tomfoolery. My resolve to save up for an endgame machine after my Pavoni but the dust lasted less than a week, so here I am…

 

[Naftoor]

 

[MarcelNL]

Hope you have the schematic and ability to work with lethal voltages, other than that...there is nothing more than you need in a machine than a Pavoni other than creature comforts such as less overheating or a larger boiler. The majority of fancy espresso machines try to mimick a lever with tremendous amounts of gear and break down frequently as a result.

My little cafelat Robot does as well as my Urania, and sometimes even better..

 

[Corradobrit1]

Hope you have the schematic and ability to work with lethal voltages, other than that...there is nothing more than you need in a machine than a Pavoni other than creature comforts such as less overheating or a larger boiler. The majority of fancy espresso machines try to mimick a lever with tremendous amounts of gear and break down frequently as a result.

My little cafelat Robot does as well as my Urania, and sometimes even better..

The problem I have with the Robot is channeling and spritzing. I don't have my lever machine set up as it has to be plumbed in. I'm loading approx 16g into the portafilter and grind quite fine so as not to need a lot of force to get the extraction. Tamper medium pressure ie max with finger tips and I use the tool supplied with the Kafatek to break up clumps. Preinfusion approx 6 secs. Happens with fresh and older beans. Quite frustrating. Can't figure out if its the proprietory basket or the grinder. Careful attention to maintaining temps.
Whats your experience been like? The shots still taste great but I feel they could be better.

 

[MarcelNL]

The problem I have with the Robot is channeling and spritzing. I don't have my lever machine set up as it has to be plumbed in. I'm loading approx 16g into the portafilter and grind quite fine so as not to need a lot of force to get the extraction. Tamper medium pressure ie max with finger tips and I use the tool supplied with the Kafatek to break up clumps. Preinfusion approx 6 secs. Happens with fresh and older beans. Quite frustrating. Can't figure out if its the proprietory basket or the grinder. Careful attention to maintaining temps.
Whats your experience been like? The shots still taste great but I feel they could be better.

I see little or no spritzers, but I'm usually doing 'old school' 14 g in shots using my own roast.
Using up to 9 bars (initial pressure, tapering off to 6-7 and lower) I rarely have spritzers unless the coffee gets long in the teeth (3rd week of being away from a grinder).
Now I have a red click whatever brand it was manual grinder for travel, and that did also not create spritzers once dialled in.

I recall you have a pretty decent grinder, I'd start at a slightly lower dose and try that.


I'm using the Urania not plumbed in, filling the boiler intermittently using a centrifugal pump connected to the water inlet. I've also seen folks using the steam pipe to fill the boiler during cool down by the vacuum created ( that is, it only works if there is no vac breaker).

 

[ethompson]

Hope you have the schematic and ability to work with lethal voltages, other than that..

Replacing this wiring harness is pretty straight forward. And we have measly 120 over here, not nearly as scary as when I do anything, even very simple things, with our 480 ovens at work for instance. But you'r'e concern is well placed and appreciated, because I'm going a few steps further here.

there is nothing more than you need in a machine than a Pavoni other than creature comforts such as less overheating or a larger boiler.

Some of these creature comforts are what I am shooting for. I'm adding a PID along with a few other modifications as I go through resurrecting this unit. Im the only hot-coffee drinker in the household and would almost never pull more than 5 or 6 shots back to back, so the boiler capacity of this Professional is ample for my needs. Hoping to finish everything up Saturday and will report back!

The majority of fancy espresso machines try to mimick a lever with tremendous amounts of gear and break down frequently as a result.

I'd love a modern hybrid spring-lever like the Leva X, Spiritello, or Nurri, but regardless I'm firmly in the lever gang. I visited a roaster managed by a friend of a friend a awhile back when I was first getting into home espresso and got to play with a range of equipment. Lo and behold all the shots I liked the most were brewed emulating the pressure profile of a lever or with a lever proper.

 

[mengwong]

The problem I have with the Robot is channeling and spritzing. I don't have my lever machine set up as it has to be plumbed in. I'm loading approx 16g into the portafilter and grind quite fine so as not to need a lot of force to get the extraction.

Proposed experiment: load 18g into the 16g basket, does it touch the shower screen? If not that might fix the channeling.

Baskets pretend to go by weight but ultimately go by volume.

 

[MarcelNL]

Proposed experiment: load 18g into the 16g basket, does it touch the shower screen? If not that might fix the channeling.

Baskets pretend to go by weight but ultimately go by volume.

te Cafelat Robot does not have a showerscreen, it does have a 'floating' top screen. It's a manually filled not heated lever.

I bet I could fill the basket with 50g and not hit the shower screen ;-)

 

[WPerry]

I'd love a modern hybrid spring-lever like the Leva X, Spiritello, or Nurri, but regardless I'm firmly in the lever gang. I visited a roaster managed by a friend of a friend a awhile back when I was first getting into home espresso and got to play with a range of equipment. Lo and behold all the shots I liked the most were brewed emulating the pressure profile of a lever or with a lever proper.

My Profitec Pro800 isn't in the same league as those, but I still love it; I don't anticipate a time when I'll have the combination of the desire to meaningfully upgrade and the depth of pockets necessary to upgrade, so I'll enjoy being in the calm eddy for a while, out from the rushing current of FOMO.

Side note: some guy on another forum posted a "this is how you're supposed to do it," video of pulling a shot in his e61. Gawd, between the awful buzzing of the pump and the insinuated superiority, I had to close the browser tab and go make myself another coffee.

 

[mengwong]

te Cafelat Robot does not have a showerscreen, it does have a 'floating' top screen. It's a manually filled not heated lever.

I bet I could fill the basket with 50g and not hit the shower screen ;-)
View attachment 317232

Oh. Wow. I know nothing, Jon Snow.

Well, maybe that suggestion will help someone with a more conventional setup some time in the far future

 

[Naftoor]

i taste hints of orange with the peel or grapefruit and i hate that you all were kinda right about coffee not being 100% coffee flavor

creamsicle remains a wildly optimistic way to describe it. even if I could coax sweetness out without losing the citrus it’d just be a sweet orange with no vanilla. (And it’s still mostly coffee)

Also have you tried tamping on a kitchen scale to see how much force you’re applying? I ended up getting one of the self leveling tampers with a spring that compresses at a known weight so I know I’m hitting a minimum. With the completely manual tamp I found I often wasn’t applying enough pressure to actually fully compress the puck

 

[ethompson]

i taste hints of orange with the peel or grapefruit and i hate that you all were kinda right about coffee not being 100% coffee flavor

creamsicle remains a wildly optimistic way to describe it. even if I could coax sweetness out without losing the citrus it’d just be a sweet orange with no vanilla. (And it’s still mostly coffee)

I choose to look at the tasting notes as the flavors beyond coffee. I just mentally add coffee as the first note and then these as the extras. Except sometimes I get something that tastes not like coffee first, but that is less common. Expensive beans, but if you really want to see how fruity and sweet coffee can get, try this:
https://revelcoffee.com/colombia-washed-nitro-caturra/
It's the first time I've ever seen melon as a tasting not and immediately from the first sip agreed. Really crazy stuff!!

Also have you tried tamping on a kitchen scale to see how much force you’re applying? I ended up getting one of the self leveling tampers with a spring that compresses at a known weight so I know I’m hitting a minimum. With the completely manual tamp I found I often wasn’t applying enough pressure to actually fully compress the puck

I haven't, but I also subscribe to the idea that over-tamping is not a concern - I just press very firmly down compacting as much as manageable without throwing my full body weight into it.

 

[MarcelNL]

tamping is IMHO the single most over estimated part of the whole process of making espresso...anything over 10kg/20pounds is plenty, and does not improve things one bit.
Without tamping it's also possible to make a fine cup...proven to me on the Italian roadside a few years ago.

 

[ethompson]

You can definitely get away without tamping with certain beans, doses, and machines. Groups smaller than 58mm and darker roasts are significantly more forgiving of this. I choose to tamp hard enough to get full compaction every time because it removes a variable from the equation.

 

[Naftoor]

Definitely no snickers. Underlying flavor seems ok, but overridden by extreme saltiness. My understanding is that it’s a form of bitterness which some google-fu shows as being

1) Terroir, apparently non-stellar Indonesian beans can have it. Being as these are Brazilian I’m assuming shouldn’t be the cause

2) A roast done too quickly. They are quite dark, and pretty uneven especially compared to ceremony which had a gorgeously even roast

3) Severe under extraction. Pushed extraction times up to a minute and 1:2.5. Pushed pseudo ristrettos at 1:1.15 and 50 seconds. Only real difference I noticed was dropping the dosing from 18 to 17g, lowered it slightly I think, but still overpowering. May try going down to 16.

Also cupping these beans was AWFUL. Tasted almost like soil? Definitely not a food product. Weird how it doesn’t show in espresso.

 

[ethompson]

Just like me to take something simple and make it much more complicated. Should get to pulling shots by tomorrow.

 

[MarcelNL]

just make sure that SSR is cooled properly, with a PID that switches in high frequency they can get hot and fail pretty soon (especially when not overdimensioned)

 

[ethompson]

just make sure that SSR is cooled properly, with a PID that switches in high frequency they can get hot and fail pretty soon (especially when not overdimensioned)

Agreed, that was an area of concern. The SSR is quite a bit overspeed for the draw placed upon it, but also I used thermal paste between it and the metal base of the machine so hoping the machine itself can function somewhat as a heat sink. Plan to take regular temp readings of that area with my infrared at startup.

 

[MarcelNL]

if you did all that it should be fine!

That metal base ought to be enough of a heatsinkt when coupled by thermal paste!

 

[ethompson]

if you did all that it should be fine!

That metal base ought to be enough of a heatsinkt when coupled by thermal paste!

Ive sanity checked my wiring dozens of times and asked a couple real experts to review it also - still nervous as hell to plug it in for the first time haha

 

[MarcelNL]

that is a WAY better approach than plugging it in without any second thought!

Just keep one hand in your pocket and plug it into a socket protected by a fuse and leak current protection while watching out for the magic smoke leaving the device....

you'll be fine!

 

[Lars]

The problem I have with the Robot is channeling and spritzing. I don't have my lever machine set up as it has to be plumbed in. I'm loading approx 16g into the portafilter and grind quite fine so as not to need a lot of force to get the extraction. Tamper medium pressure ie max with finger tips and I use the tool supplied with the Kafatek to break up clumps. Preinfusion approx 6 secs. Happens with fresh and older beans. Quite frustrating. Can't figure out if its the proprietory basket or the grinder. Careful attention to maintaining temps.
Whats your experience been like? The shots still taste great but I feel they could be better.

Keep it simple. Don't use any silly tools and focus on the basics like grind, dose and extraction time.

 

[HolyDiverScallop]

Just like me to take something simple and make it much more complicated. Should get to pulling shots by tomorrow.
View attachment 317682

So what is it that you did here? I understand the individual components but not the outcome.

 

[ethompson]

So what is it that you did here? I understand the individual components but not the outcome.

Having not turned it on, right now I've accomplished nothing.

In theory, there is actually quite a bit going on down here now. Typically the pressure stat would control the element in a simple circuit and maintain a somewhat constant pressure. I wanted a bit more temperature control so I have assigned temperature control away from the pstat and over to a PID. I am swapping out the pstat for a higher threshold one and routing that to a small air pump that I've hooked up to the boiler - this will let me maintain a constant 1.5-ish bar of pressure regardless of water temp as the excess pressure will come from an outside source. And then I threw in the switch from a modern two element so I can bypass the PID / pstat all together and lock the heating on for higher pressure steaming or initial warm up.

I've also made some modifications to the group such as switching it over the water instead of steam heated and adding a heat sink to the group to aid in inter-shot temp stability.

 

[OkayMode]

Erm, so - hypothetically - if I were to want to have a play with espresso using some kind of approach that isn’t going to involve a permanent fixture on my kitchen counter…

Would anyone recommend a specific lever/steamer combo set up that can grow with my nerdery if I decide I like it?

 

[nhb22]

Erm, so - hypothetically - if I were to want to have a play with espresso using some kind of approach that isn’t going to involve a permanent fixture on my kitchen counter…

Would anyone recommend a specific lever/steamer combo set up that can grow with my nerdery if I decide I like it?

this probably need a questionnaire more complicated than knife questionnaire, but my best advice is to buy something popular and easy to resell. a budget and the max footprint plus the max warm up time you can tolerate would be important to know.

 

[PeterL]

Erm, so - hypothetically - if I were to want to have a play with espresso using some kind of approach that isn’t going to involve a permanent fixture on my kitchen counter…

Would anyone recommend a specific lever/steamer combo set up that can grow with my nerdery if I decide I like it?

Less knowledgeable on the espresso side than some of the members here and most of the members of coffee focused forums but from personal experience I’d say a manual lever could work for espresso at least like a Cafelat Robot/Flair 58 etc. Some way to steam milk could be something like a nanofoamer pro. I’ve got @fatboylim’s robot on loan right now and really enjoying it. I don’t know if I prefer espresso daily compared to pour over but it’s but a really fun way to dip