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Keith nailed it. Not that he needs my endorsement, but after fifty years of serious shooting, I agree with everything he has to say on this thread.

Just want to give a big "Amen" to his recommendation of professional training. I've never shot with Randy Cain, but have heard nothing but good about him.

Of the pros that I have trained with, I'd put Larry Vickers at the top of my list. I've been in classes where we shot nearly a thousand rounds a day. I've been to facilities where we set up all kinds of cool scenarios with props galore and had a ball. But I have to say, if you want to improve your ability to shoot accurately under pressure...give LAV a try.

:my2cents:
 
Dave Martell said:
As always you guys are a wealth of information and generous to a fault. Thanks especially to Keith for your offers but I doubt that I'll be taking any courses in the foreseeable future. Sure I'd love to go that route - yup I'd LOVE it indeed - it's just that I'm saving pennies as it is for the basics and as it is the unfortunate reality is that a course like that becomes a luxury to a guy like me.
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Dave:

If you are going to buy a firearm without training first, I recommend a Smith & Wesson model 66 4" barrel. The .357 Magnum is adequate for defense, and the same revolver will fire cheap .38 Special ammunition (though not to the same point of aim); the Smith is simple, reliable, and durable. It is much safer than an autoloader in untrained hands, and more likely to go bang when you need it.

The temptation to get a high capacity autoloader is strong, but the model 66 will serve you much better. If you continue your journey into firearms and graduate to something with more bullets, you will likely find yourself still getting out the revolver for fun.

It's like starting with a Carter. You may get fancier knives, but the Carter will always remain useful.

Keith
 
I had some training back in the late 80's while stationed in the UK. I had to work with the security police for base perimeter security (aka - foxhole sitting) but that was a long time ago and we didn't have semi-auto handguns then, it was .38 revolver, M16, M203, & M60's for us and I qualified on all of those. After that I got training on the Beretta M9 and later my room mate in NM had a Taurus (92FS clone) that we shot a good bit while I was there. So I'm not unfamiliar with what these guns do but it has been a very long time since I had my hands on them.
 
im a glock 36 guy 6+1 45apc kelly has a glock19 15+1 9 mm we can share holsters she loves hers an i love mien carry foe me is not a problem as its a single stack and fees everything i have fed it ammo wise
 
A few belated comments.
If you were a gun zealot, you would already have lots of guns, opinions, and training. As that is apparently not the case, I would suggest something simple, reliable, and effective. If you actually think you might need a gun one day, just stay home.
My favorite pistol is a .40 Glock 23; simple and reliable, it holds 12+1 rounds. Nevertheless, I'm more likely to put an aluminum-framed S&W .38 in my pocket. If a gun's too cumbersome, you probably won't carry it.
I stay out of bars, and out of trouble. I don't have any kind of permit, other than the respectable old-guy card. Our .38's (my wife has a Model 60) have very nice cocobolo grips, and I have a Kramer holster for my back pocket.
 
Dave, as a cop, here are a few suggestions. I avoid 9mm as too many times there is a through and through and people hit the person or something behind the target when having to shoot a person. Plus like a few others have said, people in some cases have been shot many, many times with a 9mm and not been hurt too bad in the long term. I prefer 40 or 45 cal. Certainly get some refresher training because if u dont miss, u dont need more rounds unless u are fighting an army or the zombie apocalypse has begun.... I like the springfielf XD's myself and if my department allowed it, I would carry a nice 22 mag over under derringer, 2 shots, 2 kills, but soo easy to conceal.
 
I carried a Kahr pm9 for years: very reliable, accurate and beautifully made gun, but there where some ergonomics with the tiger pull that just where not ideal for my big hands. I ended up giving it to my sister for her first gun.

I just got a chance to handle both a Sig p938 and and Springfield xds .45. The sig is the most impressive sub-compact 9mm I've ever held and I was amazed that while it's smaller, it actually felt much better in my hands than my old pm9.
The xds is still very compact, but is noticeably larger than the p938, and the result is that if feels almost like a full-size gun comfort-wise.

I think that many of the old problems that you used to hear about 9mm over penetrating or under-performing have been compensated for with advances in ammunition. The ballistic performance of some of the lastest 9mm copper or composite self-defense bullets are pretty impressive.

Still, my favorite caliber is .45. Even though the recoil is technically "more" than a 9mm or .40, I feel that it's a much more pleasant type of jolt: more of a "THUMP" than a "SNAP."

I'm currently deadlocked between these 2 guns, and I think that I just need to find a place where I can rent and shoot them both to make a decision.

I think that anyone looking for a compact or sub-compact carry and self defense gun should take a look at both of these as well.
 
For me, this ended the discussion about caliber choice:

[video=youtube;2dA36NYLqns]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dA36NYLqns&feature=plcp[/video]

With modern self-defense ammo, they are all calibrated to acheive the same terminal ballistics.

I'm huge fan of Paul Gomez...he brought a solidier's discipline and an engineer's mind to this discipline...was extremely sad that we lost him earlier this year.

After digesting this video for a couple of weeks, I made the commitment to move from the .40S+W I've been EDC for years to 9mm for both effectivness and improved "time in the fight." Also, I'm not a big man (5'9" @ 160lbs), but I'm a huge advocate of full-sized EDC all year long, I have no trouble concealing it with minimal trouble...and the improved capacity, sight radius, recoil absorbtion, and time back on target are easily worth it.

My wife carries a M+P 9C most of the time...and a Walther p22 the rest of the time (with a pretty pink frame :laugh: ).

I spend about 200 hours/year training, participate in idpa, ipsc, and steel challenge (usually 1 of those each month). and take the intellectual side very seriously as well, at least half of my 200 hours is reading and instructor-led training.

Also, I have extensive notes and research that I maintain, which I would be happy to share with you privately. Mostly focused on understanding the law, ethics, and legal practices around this...but also some tactical information.

that's my :2cents:

Hope you find it useful.
 
S&W Bodyguard 380. You can always have it on you, asy to fire with either hand, and at 3-5 ft. 9 mm. short is adequate.
 
Oh, one last comment to my thoughts above: FAR more important than the hardware is the software...YOU are what is dangerous, not the firearm. You need to get something that has YOUR confidence, whatever that means for caliber, action type, capacity, ease of use, etc. Then you need to be able to operate it without thinking about how it works...should be second nature.
 
Zwiefel said:
Oh, one last comment to my thoughts above: FAR more important than the hardware is the software...YOU are what is dangerous, not the firearm. You need to get something that has YOUR confidence, whatever that means for caliber, action type, capacity, ease of use, etc. Then you need to be able to operate it without thinking about how it works...should be second nature.
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Very excellent point. Off topic but connected is everytime I show my SCUBA pics with sharks in it. First reaction to non-divers is I would never do that, they are so dangerous! I always respond that the SCUBA divers in the picture are WAAYYY more dangerous than a shark would ever be. People kill people.
 
I Will say Sorry in advance guys to get in to that thread, but as EU sitesent i dont quite undestand why you wil have guns in US :O
I will really like to :D
Also is US so dangerous country ?? That you need to have guns to protect you ?

I mean that guns is designed to kill not to stop an attak or protect you. If you want protection then you buy some kind of spray or electric shook or something.
I understand if you have riffles for hunting as a hoby, but to have hand firearm is quite weird to me. As its only purpose is to kill.

I just want to undestand what its all about :D Is it really so many bad guys in US ?
And please dont take it as offence ! I just curious
Note, i never in my life hold a gun or shot with a gun.
 
It's about history, a young country born out of revolution and a general mistrust of government. "The right to bear arms" is in our constitution.
What has happened since is a matter of great debate. Perhaps the price of freedom? Knowing if the people want to over throw the government we can do it at any time.

I'm sure there are bad segments of the population in every country. We also happen to be the media capital of the world and they love to talk about crime and punishment.

Side note: The two recent mass shootings in my city were in the lilly white suburbs. That is scary.
 
Firearms are also used for target shooting and competition, not just "killing"! I used to compete in Bullseye competitions and other pistol competitions and it was a lot of fun, met a lot of great people, etc. Even though it was a competition, it was a very friendly atmosphere and the people are always willing to help out newbies. It is also part of our Heritage like Salty pointed out; we stand up and fight for ourselves and our freedom. Calling the police to protect you is a joke; response time can range from minutes to hours, depending on your location and at that point you may be dead already. The point is to protect yourself or someone else and if that means taking a life, so be it. Pepper Spray and stun guns are not always available or effective. In my state, civilians cannot carry an electronic defense weapon (stun gun or Taser). Pepper Spray is a joke for serious criminals or those under the influence of various substances, drugs, alcohol, etc. In my security training, we are pepper sprayed and taught to fight through it. I have seen people being Tased and still running away from Police until the police K-9 pulled them down from a fence. Criminals in this country are very bold and will attack someone for no reason. Most people arrested are under the influence or drugs or alcohol, which means that reasoning/talking them down will most likely not work and pepper spray/electronic defense items may not work either. A firearm doesn't mean an instant kill (depending on shot placement, etc) or even a kill, but will be more effective against someone on drugs/alcohol. I've seen people shot thru the heart with a .45acp and sitting on the curb talking, not even phased by it on news shows. People can be killed by a .22lr if the shot placement is accurate and the area is vital. Some people claim that knife wounds are more dangerous than gun shot wounds and most people I have seen are really not accurate with a pistol at even close range, under no stress. Add in a stressful self defense situation and most people will freeze up if they haven't trained a lot.

As for lots of bad guys in the US, yes, there are. Court systems are a joke and most of the people get out and commit more crimes and get smarter and tougher in jail. Drugs run rampant in the country and many crimes are committed for drug/alcohol money or to steal something to get the money. People need to be able to defend themselves and protect themselves, not just run away and hide. In England, one study I saw found that crimes involving firearms went up 300% AFTER firearms were outlawed and people had to turn them in. In the US, DC, Chicago and other areas with highly strict firearms laws have the most crimes/deaths with firearms. Why? The criminals know the citizens aren't armed and are therefore easier targets.
 
it answers many of my questions :)
Thanks !

But really we dont have that much crime in Eu and all cary guns is band. And even knives
For the target shooting you can use special guns for that no need for pistols. Also it can be used just there, we have it in EU too :)

On haretage we used to go with helmets and swords here in DK in Viking times, but we dont now. Its because times is changed and we evolved from that time.

I am just talking about walking in the streets with guns not gun clubs or target shooting or any shooting hobys of any kind witch i undestand totally :)
I dont undestand how people can cary a gun to work or to the shop. But if you say its very dengeros in US then i undestand.

I am also fallow you on your answer that anything can kill, knife rock fist iron pan. But they are not designed to kill they are also useful for other purposes.

Sorry if i sound bad and i know its very sensible topic in US i will just like to widen my knowlige about it and undestand it better.
 
Many folks are anti gun in this country. There is also a "gun culture" which I'm a little embarassed to admit being a fringe member.

Most Americans don't own a handgun.
 
I understand Maxim! It's a different culture/mindset over here. Many people think the Tasers and Pepper Spray actually work, but many of the times, they don't. Many countries banned guns, then when the criminals started to use knives, they had "turn your knife in" days and people were turning in their chefs knives that they used in the kitchen to get money for them! In Australia, they had the same thing. Banned guns, thugs turned to knives and swords, those were banned. Then they turned to their ancestral aborigine weaponry, that got banned too. So the gangs started carrying chains, tire irons, baseball bats, etc. Criminals will find something to use against someone, especially if they know the law abiding citizens can't carry anything!!

I work security and wish I could carry one of my pistols on my person. We are dealing with gang members, major drug dealers and stuff and occasionally find weapons on them. Off duty, I don't always carry, but there are times that I do carry.

One cool thing is that in the EU, many countries let people own "silencers" without all sorts of legal paperwork. It is considered polite to have them so you don't disturb other people with your shooting noise. In the US, movies have vilified silencers as the Assassins and Criminal's weapons and there are lots of legal hoops you need to jump through to own one. Some places they are still illegal in the US!
 
haha dont be , i bet if guns was ligel here in DK i will had one too ;D
 
As another EU person I find these threads about guns fascinating. It is something so alien and different to me that I find it very interesting when everyone discusses them and they seem so normal. I'd say there's probably more guns about where I am than most other places in the EU :shotgun: but even so, people being shot is incredibly rare and when it does happen it's usually rather unsavoury characters on the receiving end anyway
 
For a long (historical look) answer, we have the right keep and bear arms in the USA, a right that we are meant to believe is given to us by a higher power. The USA has (is supposed to have) a government comprised of the people and the idea of the people being armed is that the government should fear the people and this fear will keep them honest.

For a shorter answer the unfortunate truth is that the USA can be a violent country, or maybe better said, the USA has a lot of crime that is violent. Guns are here already and bad guys have them (and always will) so good guys who don't want to be victims will equalize the threat(s) with carrying their own firearms.
 
maxim said:
I Will say Sorry in advance guys to get in to that thread, but as EU sitesent i dont quite undestand why you wil have guns in US :O
I will really like to :D
Also is US so dangerous country ?? That you need to have guns to protect you ?

I mean that guns is designed to kill not to stop an attak or protect you. If you want protection then you buy some kind of spray or electric shook or something.
Click to expand...

Maxim,

I think there are a couple of misunderstandings here. How likely is it that I will face an attack that will require the use of a firearm? very very unlikely, I am relatively well-off, do not purchase drugs or other illegal items, do not linger in high-crime areas, and have good awareness skills. But...the COST of not being prepared in such a situation is unacceptably high. Much like a fire extinguisher, the odds that I will need to put out a fire in my home/car are very low, but the cost is extremely high if I fail to rise to that occassion as well. I consider a firearm as just another piece of emergency safety equipment like a seatbelt, or fire extinguisher.

Also, about 78% of people shot with a handgun survive. Killing someone with a handgun isn't like it is in the movies, and it isn't easy. People shot with shotguns and rifles survive at much lower rates.

Also, the second ammendment is really about the right of the people to overthrow their government. The language used there shifts from "the milita" to "the people" indicating that it is referencing two different populations:

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

In other words, because the government must have armed forces to conduct government business, the people should be armed as well.

HTH helps it make more sense to you.
 
Our media has leant to the mentality that we are facing imminent danger; from our TV shows, movies, games, toys, newspapers, etc...we are surrounded with violence. Americans feel entitled. We were promised a dream. When we don't get what we want, and are exposed to violence, occasionally we act out. Others feel the need to protect their loved ones...its perpetual; and silly. As we are experiencing, other countries don't need fire arms to topple us...our guns will be useless against government when our economy collapses. We will instead use them on each other. Savage.
 
While handguns are "restricted" under Canadian law, you can still own them and shoot them at the range...

It just so happens that I've shot a lot of handguns in various calibers. 10 years ago i would say .45 ACP, but now it's 9mm...

I like 9mm because it is low recoil thus my follow up shots are faster, they typically have a larger capacity in a smaller frame and ammo is cheap, widely available and thus I get out and practice with it more. Shot placement is key.

I say this because shot placement is so much more important than any of the other variables. This debate is like the debates some have on here about final edge polish, with microscopes and 3D scans. Any "theoretical" advantage really doesn't matter in the real world--spend this time shooting your gun (or cutting)

Which brings me to my next point. No amount of training will prepare a civilian for a deadly encounter with another individual. The only way to get around this is to train, train, train. I'm a BJJ practitioner of 8 years and sometimes still fight out of character in competition. This is because a person's physiological response to a stressful situation creates involuntary side affects that are not desirable. Train, train, TRAIN. This is what the military does and this is what martial artists do. The more you train the more your muscles remember, and even under stress will react with some semblance of how you trained. I think if you are carrying a gun the responsibility is much greater to be an expert at shooting it. That is also why I would recommend that you choose one platform and stick with it. No switching out different platforms for "variety" sake--a CC weapon is not a toy.

Good luck.
 
Ok let me explane my take on this :) Again please dont be ofended as i live in DK with super low crime rate we keep our doors open while we go to shop and even to other towns :D our cars is open when we stay at our home, So as you undestand nut much crime. But still we have all guns forbidden and all knives over 120mm to cary with you in free time.

Sorry but its not like with fire, you do not go around with fire extinguisher or alarm.

If i go with a gun i constantly feel that i am in danger and need to protect my self or my loved ones from constant danger.
That will make me feel paranoid to always feel that i need protection. So i think it is more government fault to not make people feel safe, or people don't want to feel safe ?

I feel that US is quite modern country and not a development country where there is war. I understand if it was war place then you will need gun protection all the time.

But again i see it as a hobby, guns is super beautiful and some of them is work of art like knives
 
maxim said:
Ok let me explane my take on this :) Again please dont be ofended as i live in DK with super low crime rate we keep our doors open while we go to shop and even to other towns :D our cars is open when we stay at our home, So as you undestand nut much crime. But still we have all guns forbidden and all knives over 120mm to cary with you in free time.

Sorry but its not like with fire, you do not go around with fire extinguisher or alarm.

If i go with a gun i constantly feel that i am in danger and need to protect my self or my loved ones from constant danger.
That will make me feel paranoid to always feel that i need protection. So i think it is more government fault to not make people feel safe, or people don't want to feel safe ?

I feel that US is quite modern country and not a development country where there is war. I understand if it was war place then you will need gun protection all the time.

But again i see it as a hobby, guns is super beautiful and some of them is work of art like knives
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Can't speak for anyone else, but you won't offend me.

Actually, I keep a fire extinguisher in my car...so I do go around with one all the time. I keep a first-aid kit with me at all times as well. I can't imainge someone saying that a first-aid kit would make them paranoid though. After a few weeks of carrying a gun, you stop being constantly aware of it, just like your phone, car keys, coat, etc.

I also go around with an alarm all the time: my cell phone :)

finally, I also carry the other things you mentioned: pepper spray, small striking instruments, a flashlight, etc. a fairly wide continuum of options. Just part of the way I choose to live my life, not a reflection of any extraodinary danger that I live with.

As to your crime stats...I think you'll find Switzerland has similar or perhaps lower crime rates to you but virtually every single home there has guns, and the military sells their surplus machine guns to the general public without any special licenses. These things are just tools...like kitchen knives. People are what is dangerous.

Also, despite a total ban for some decades, 10% of the homocides in England are with handguns. Chicago in the US had a total bad for a number of decades yet it is one of the most violent cities in the US. It's a question of culture and disposition, not of what is available.
 
Attributing a low crime rate (or a healthy society in general) to strict gun control laws is unacademic.

Denmark might have a moderate crime rate (it's not low by any standard), it has one of the highest suicide rates in the world...

I guess what i am getting at is that the prevalence of firearms does not dictate how screwed up the socio-economic situation is, and that's what Maxim is hinting at.

In small town Canada people also leave there doors unlocked, keys in the ignition, etc. But I guarantee you most people lock their doors in Copenhagen...
 
Canadian said:
Attributing a low crime rate (or a healthy society in general) to strict gun control laws is unacademic.

Denmark might have a moderate crime rate (it's not low by any standard), it has one of the highest suicide rates in the world...

I guess what i am getting at is that the prevalence of firearms does not dictate how screwed up the socio-economic situation is, and that's what Maxim is hinting at.

In small town Canada people also leave there doors unlocked, keys in the ignition, etc. But I guarantee you most people lock their doors in Copenhagen...
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Usa, Canada, Denmark, Sweden etc are pretty equal in this "competition"... but not near the highest rates in the world.
http://www.who.int/mental_health/prevention/suicide/suicideprevent/en/
 
Many good observations here, and good explanations. One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the majority of registered firearms in the US are owned by a small number of people, the vast majority are upstanding law abiding citizens. I.e. enthusiusts, collectors, doomsday predictors, hunters, competition shooters etc. The majority of the US population are not gun owners. I did not grow up in a household with guns, but I own quite a few now. Mostly because I am military, but also because I enjoy shooting and training. In addition, I feel safer with them but I have had quite a bit of training and am also a range safety officer. I don't consider myself a typical gun owner, I am not super paranoid. Hehe ;)
 
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