Japanese Knives Gesshin Uraku, what's the steel?

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Perhaps my three best gyutos are Shigefusa, Kato & Devin Thomas. I do not know the steel of any of these. I bought them because of reputation and recommendations. Not knowing the steel didn't affect my ability to learn how they perform and sharpen and my own experience has backed up that information.

To Jon's point of dealing with what the customer needs rather than what type of steel they want and the car analogy: Do you really need to know if a car has 4, 6 or 8 cylinders, or do you need to know how much power it has, it's efficiency/gas mileage and it's reliability? If Jon were selling used cars and I went in and I said I want a V8, I might miss out on 6 cylinder that has comparable power, less weight, better efficiency, etc. Preconceived notions aren't always a good thing.
 
JohnnyChance said:
Perhaps my three best gyutos are Shigefusa, Kato & Devin Thomas. I do not know the steel of any of these. I bought them because of reputation and recommendations. Not knowing the steel didn't affect my ability to learn how they perform and sharpen and my own experience has backed up that information.

To Jon's point of dealing with what the customer needs rather than what type of steel they want and the car analogy: Do you really need to know if a car has 4, 6 or 8 cylinders, or do you need to know how much power it has, it's efficiency/gas mileage and it's reliability? If Jon were selling used cars and I went in and I said I want a V8, I might miss out on 6 cylinder that has comparable power, less weight, better efficiency, etc. Preconceived notions aren't always a good thing.
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Well said.
 
This is a crazy topic but I think a lot of good posts have been made.
JC post above pretty much sums up how I feel.

I personally agree with those here... I tried to pick steel that I wanted then learned just rely on the maker if they actually cared to sell me a knife for me rather then just take my money and run.
For years I passed on Butch's knives because I thought I hated cpm-154 in a kitchen knife but figured it would be more useful in a edc... my chef knife is my edc most days so in turn I stupidly ignored all the glowing posts about his grinds and useful designs. Plus the longer I waited the less his knives were available and prices kept going up.

Years later I had the chance to buy a knife from mario and despite the cpm-154 all the talk of his grind had me enthralled. I have since found that maybe Butch isnt a fool for making knives out of that steel and maybe I should just learn to express my intentions and preconceived needs then let the maker blow me away with something that was more then I intended. If you cant guess I love the knife from mario and honestly for knives in that price range his knife is outstanding.

I can certainly understand and respect those who want to know the steel. Honestly I dont think its a big deal but this seems more an argument about why all information isnt free and available not an intimate discussion of does it really matter if Jon tells this one particular products steel. Not to mention it somewhat is a claim we know how to run Jon's business better then him and maybe we do but Jon imo has built up a stellar reputation of going out of his way to please a customer and until I hear or see otherwise I'll assume his decisions to be in my best interests and his best interests :)
either way nobody is perfect so feel free to question away maybe Jon will say ok enough is enough the mystery steel is.... and soon we should have this same thread to determine what the "mystery carbon" is
anyway carry on goodluck
 
funny thing is, i never met a young cook or home cook with an entry level japanese knife who had any idea what type of steel it was made of. the uraku line is an explicitly entry-level, workhorse line, the people buying these knives likely don't care about steel type, they just want a decent knife and i'm sure appreciate good customer service when they are new to the whole thing especially.
 
Ok so I think I opened up a can of worms here and I certainly wasn't trying to. I bought the uraku gyuto as a foray into a wa-handle knife as I've worked solely with western handle j-knives thus far. I've been cooking professionally for 8 years and it was time to try something new, this knife has performed above my expectations, considering the price point and I'm continually surprised by it, no disrespect to Jon, I know he only sells quality products. I was only looking for a little more information on the steel type after a knife savvy co-worker asked me what it was made out of and I honestly couldn't tell him. No I don't think not knowing the steel would prevent me from buying a knife as I use this forum and others like it to learn about prospective purchases before I take the plunge, however I do think it would be nice to know. Now does me not knowing make my knife less sharp? No. Does it make me less likely to recommend this knife to a peer? No. I simply wanted to know out of curiosity.
 
Ruso,

Do you cook professionally? Because I do. An example for me is when guest ask me for the recipes of our food, no unfortunately I am not will to give out all of that information. To be honest, I won't even give a list of the ingredients in some of our dishes. Just because someone is buying dinner doesn't mean you have to give them a list of every single ingredient or the recipe to the dish. Maybe other do it different but not where I work.

I used to love knowing steel types! I thought it was the most important thing about a knife. But an artifax AEB-L and a Devin AEB-L... Same steel type used in both knives... Or just save the money and buy the artifax if you must try an AEB-L knife. They make the knives, research the steels, work with the steels, test out new steels.... Why do they "need" to give you and the rest of the world including their competitors the types of steel they are using. Hell, look at Devin, he was making great knives in 52100 and AEB-L when I first got on his list. Then, many other makers started using AEB-L and some vendors started carrying new lines of Japanese knives made with AEB-L. I can personally tell you that I have used knives with AEB-L that were absolute garbage but at the same time I can tell you Devin's AEB-L gave me a new love for stainless after not purchasing a stainless knife for a very long time. He then went and did tons of testing on other types of and I have owned 3 and tried 2 others. They were all fantastic knives. I liked some more than others. In the end of the day, why does the type of steel matter? The knives cut and performed great. Just my 2 cents. Luckily, there are TONS of other makers out there that do list their steel types and if you want many of the brands mentioned do make some knives that they tell you the steel type. So, if it's that big of a deal, buy elsewhere?

-Chuck
 
It could be that if John lists what the steel is, then the maker would be relieved cause there is only 1 maker with that steel? Or some other way of finding out in a similar manner I say good for John.
 
JohnnyChance said:
Perhaps my three best gyutos are Shigefusa, Kato & Devin Thomas. I do not know the steel of any of these. I bought them because of reputation and recommendations. Not knowing the steel didn't affect my ability to learn how they perform and sharpen and my own experience has backed up that information.

To Jon's point of dealing with what the customer needs rather than what type of steel they want and the car analogy: Do you really need to know if a car has 4, 6 or 8 cylinders, or do you need to know how much power it has, it's efficiency/gas mileage and it's reliability? If Jon were selling used cars and I went in and I said I want a V8, I might miss out on 6 cylinder that has comparable power, less weight, better efficiency, etc. Preconceived notions aren't always a good thing.
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+1.
 
I don't get it.
So you're buyin a knife and steel is the center of argument.
If you're a newbie you will not know how that steel might be different and not really care.
If you're a pro you'll know that knowing the kind of steel will not tell you if he knife is intrinsically good or bad because of ht, skills, geometry, etc.
So what's the problem in telling what steel you're using?
I would still only buy from knowledgeable and respected sellers.
 
But chilli pepper, not all sellers are reputable, creating the crux of the problem.
 
We are all curious about metal types and have a general idea about their characteristics. White takes a keen edge, but doesn't have great edge retention. Blue doesn't have quite the edge, of white, but much better edge retention. Powdered Metal has very good edge retention. Stainless steel such as VG-10, is known for chipping.

A person doesn't have to be member of this forum very long to realize that there is more to a knife then just the type of steel used. Profile, grind, heat treatment, are what make the knife. In other words the ability of the maker, to work with the steel. A maker can enhance characteristics of the steel or minimize them. Most of buy knifes based on the reputation of the maker, and the characteristics or traits.

How many of us buy knifes, based on a list of details? Blue steel #2, Rockwell 61, Ice quenched, Double Bevel. I would be there are very few.

The only way to find out if a characteristic or trait works for a cutting style, is to try the knife. It probably takes 3-4 knifes, before a person can identify preferred characteristics. A vendor such as Jon or Maxim can take the desired characteristics and match them up with a knife.

All industries have trade secrets, methods they believe help them stay in business. Developing techniques to work with a steel, can take years. As well as finding an ideal set of sharpening stones. Why should a competitor get results of what somebody else has developed? A competitor may see the success of a product, their challenge is to develop an answer, not duplicate the product.

Jay
 
jaybett said:
All industries have trade secrets, methods they believe help them stay in business. Developing techniques to work with a steel, can take years. As well as finding an ideal set of sharpening stones. Why should a competitor get results of what somebody else has developed? A competitor may see the success of a product, their challenge is to develop an answer, not duplicate the product.

Jay
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Some members, obviously, think that this is irrelevant.
 
jaybett said:
We are all curious about metal types and have a general idea about their characteristics. White takes a keen edge, but doesn't have great edge retention. Blue doesn't have quite the edge, of white, but much better edge retention. Powdered Metal has very good edge retention. Stainless steel such as VG-10, is known for chipping.
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This is what i mean... while most of us "know" this, i can easily find exceptions to every single one of these statements (i.e. white with better edge retention than most blue steels, blue with finer edge taking and ease of sharpening than most white, non brittle vg-10, etc.).
 
Crothcipt said:
But chilli pepper, not all sellers are reputable, creating the crux of the problem.
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Agree 100%, it's kinda what I tried to say in my initial post: if you're a reputable seller that knows its stuff and even goes the extra mile for his customers then in order to make my choice I would rather talk with that seller than relying just on the steel type.
This, in my humble opinion, pretty much equals to saying that if the seller discloses just the steel type it is not that much of a loss. A dodgy competitor might try to copy it but the steel alone will not be sufficient to create a similar product, quality wise. Interesting thread by the way :)
 
ChiliPepper said:
Agree 100%, it's kinda what I tried to say in my initial post: if you're a reputable seller that knows its stuff and even goes the extra mile for his customers then in order to make my choice I would rather talk with that seller than relying just on the steel type.
This, in my humble opinion, pretty much equals to saying that if the seller discloses just the steel type it is not that much of a loss. A dodgy competitor might try to copy it but the steel alone will not be sufficient to create a similar product, quality wise. Interesting thread by the way :)
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I kept wanting to stay out, but it's amazing how much trouble people have putting two and two together.

Dave's post perfectly addresses your point. He went through the trouble of finding a particular line-up of stones and the stones were picked up by other vendors. Then people went and bought from those vendors for a saving of $5. The fact is, not everyone does what you claim you would do, hence the need to keep some things secret. You'd have zero gain from knowing the information while others would stand to lose from it becoming public. How does it not make sense that they don't share that information?
 
My friend at work needed a workhorse, in stainless. Jon referred him the 270 Gesshin Uraku, he loves it. My friend is 50 years old, and has been cooking since he was a teenager, pro user, sharpens himself on king 1000/6000, doesn't care what steel it is. Not that it is wrong that you do, it's just that he just wanted a well performing knife, he got burnt going to that other site on a different brand that was stainless and a bit cheaper.

So he phoned Jon, and asked him for a well performing knife, and that is what he got. I asked Jon for a good all around cutter, wasn't concerned about stainless or blade maintenance, and edge retention wasn't a huge issue as I have several gyutos in the lineup and rotate between sharpening. Just wanted a nice feeling sharp cutter, Jon referred me a Gengetsu, and I got everything and more Jon suggested. Jon is a man who will turn down a sale if it's not right for you, he will not upsell you just because he wants your money, but if you ask the right questions, and most importantly, respect his advice, you will end up with a knife that will make you happy, no lemons here. Because trust me, listen to Jon, he knows more than you do about knives, especially the ones he is selling. This might sound like a blatent plug for Jon, because it is, he is one of the best if not the best vendors of knives out there. Just watch his videos where he looks like he has the hots for his products, you can see the guy's freaking heart, that's not just good acting.

Also, when our package arrived together, I had to weigh the damn thing to find out which was mine, so I could get it open to use. The packaging from Sarah was so beautifully done that I felt if I opened my friends knife he would have killed me, he was floored, as was I. We got handwritten notes showing their appreciation, was very heartwarming. This is doing business like it was done in the past, and should be done. I should ask my friend at work if he would rather know the steel on his Uraku, or be 'able' to get a refund on that lemon he got from that walmart site, I bet I know the answer. Sorry for the rant, just a happy customer of the 'local ma and pa' internet knife store.
 
heirkb said:
I kept wanting to stay out, but it's amazing how much trouble people have putting two and two together.

Dave's post perfectly addresses your point. He went through the trouble of finding a particular line-up of stones and the stones were picked up by other vendors. Then people went and bought from those vendors for a saving of $5. The fact is, not everyone does what you claim you would do, hence the need to keep some things secret. You'd have zero gain from knowing the information while others would stand to lose from it becoming public. How does it not make sense that they don't share that information?
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Hey heirkb I get your point but a stone's a stone and a knife's a different thing. It might indeed take less to copy someone's choice of stones and sell them for 5 bucks less thus damaging the original seller but you CAN'T sell any knife made of aebl hoping it's the same as one in the same metal made and sold by Devin. Apple with apples, otherwise we ain't putting things into perspective. But please take my postings as a chance to debate, not as full frontal attack... :)
 
If on the other hand we're saying that vendor A does all the research, invests in his knowledge and comes up with the decision (and risks) to propose a product to his customers, then vendor B copies that choice, contacts the same manifacturer and sells exactly the same product at lesser price... well... welcome to the bitchy world of capitalism.
I would still do all I can to support vendor A because I admire dedication, passion and good customer service but that's just me, and the world is a big place.
(but here we're getting miles away from the original subject which was the importance of disclosing just the type of steel in a knife)
 
You are acting like those aeb-l knives for less than 100$ haven't affected makers here that make aeb l knives because they aren't as good? I fail to see how labeling and categorizing inferior products with superior products just because the steel used was the same, it's not apples with apples, maybe we should just group all knives by price point? We don't do that either, because we 'know' that's not right, so why is just grouping steel right. Hell, you can search knives by the steel on CKTG, that just gets this misinformation circle going.

This is an interesting debate imo, some interesting points have been brought up, but after using tons of knives in the same steels, and different steels, I can say I wish more sellers were like Jon. You tell him what you are working with, what you want, what has failed to impress, things like that, and he won't let you down. Also, about the welcome to the world of capitalism, I personally think we should not look at big money grubbing corporations for advice on running our small businesses, maybe Jon isn't trying to get rich, but he also isn't trying to get taken out of business either. He needs the advantage he has if he is going to continue operating against big guys that are circling like vultures like Dave said.
 
It has been a good debate up to a point. Almost seems like it is being stretched now. Some peoples opinions are just that THEIR opinions. I have not purchased a knife from Jon yet, but plan to in the near future. I plan to purchase from him because of the name he has made for himself. I feel (In my opinion based on other people's opinions) that he is a good example of how more people should run their businesses. That being said I would not deem myself worthy to tell him how to run his business. If we became friends then I could maybe offer advice, but to push it beyond offering would just be rude. What he is doing is working for him and all of his satisfied customers so far.
 
And that gets us right back to the issue that you might do that, but there are likely many who wouldn't. How else are certain sites still successful?

As for apples and apples, I think my comparison was very much that. When shopping woth Jon, you need to know the steel of your knife as much as you need the manufacturer's name/chemical composition of your sharpening stones. It's a false "need". Sure it's nice (I guess), but we don't actually gain anything by it even if we think we do, while those who went and found those specific knives or stones stand to lose by sharing the info that would allow others to sell the same products. At worst, think of giving up that type of access to info as being a necessary evil to keep vendors like Jon around.
 
ChiliPepper said:
If on the other hand we're saying that vendor A does all the research, invests in his knowledge and comes up with the decision (and risks) to propose a product to his customers, then vendor B copies that choice, contacts the same manifacturer and sells exactly the same product at lesser price... well... welcome to the bitchy world of capitalism.
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This is precisely the problem. There are vendors out there that are simply trying to capitalize on the success of products of other vendors, whether by trying to provide the same knife or product at a lesser price (sometimes at a loss simply to take away market share) or by blatantly selling a similar specification and looking product, although not identical. Many similar knives are marketed by the type of steel. This is fact, not hyperbole.
 
ChiliPepper said:
It might indeed take less to copy someone's choice of stones and sell them for 5 bucks less thus damaging the original seller but you CAN'T sell any knife made of aebl hoping it's the same as one in the same metal made and sold by Devin.
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You obviously haven't seen how many people have bought AEB-L knives because they "want to try the steel" and have heard that "it's a good steel" or how cheaper AEB-L knives are marketed as having "good steel." A newbie doesn't understand the significant difference in quality. But the company selling these inferior AEB-L knives doesn't explain that there's a difference. It's capitalizing on the reputation of the quality of that steel. This is similar to how so many German companies emphasized for years that their knives used X50CrMoV15 and how sellers also did the same. I bought a set of Messermeister Meridian knives for friends of mine in the mid-90's as a wedding present; the seller made a point of how Messermeister used the same steel as Wusthof and Henckels. No one said that the quality of the steel was any different between makers.

The seller of these cheaper AEB-L knives is capitalizing on the good work of one person in particular. Who is the person who showed knife enthusiasts how good AEB-L can be? That's right - Mr. Devin Thomas.

In my opinion, and based on what I've seen over the years, Devin nearly singlehandedly made AEB-L an important steel for kitchen knives. I had started seriously researching kitchen about a year or so before Devin made his first batch of ITK AEB-L knives. When these knives came out, there was such an unbelievable demand for them. Batches of his gyutos sold out in minutes. I'm not exaggerating one bit. I think one batch of 10 or so knives sold out in two minutes.

You're right. People shouldn't think that a cheaper AEB-L knife is the same as one sold by Devin. But, no one is telling the buyer of those cheaper knives that they're any different, and most buyers don't even know that there is a difference.

And, now, you're even starting to see people complaining about these cheaper AEB-L knives. In the end, this may even hurt Devin or any higher end knife maker that uses AEB-L as more and more people use these inferior AEB-L knives and begin to think the opposite: that AEB-L knives are not good.
 
ChiliPepper said:
If on the other hand we're saying that vendor A does all the research, invests in his knowledge and comes up with the decision (and risks) to propose a product to his customers, then vendor B copies that choice, contacts the same manifacturer and sells exactly the same product at lesser price... well... welcome to the bitchy world of capitalism.
I would still do all I can to support vendor A because I admire dedication, passion and good customer service but that's just me, and the world is a big place.
(but here we're getting miles away from the original subject which was the importance of disclosing just the type of steel in a knife)
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Business have information that they wish to keep confidential or secret to make it sound more intriguing. It can be pretty basic, such as which items are going to be in the weekly ad. The number of units which they are going to get of a popular product.

When it comes to purchasing knifes or stones, we often look to trusted members, to get their opinion. In the old forum, there was a period when people were finding new stone makers in Japan, and ordering their product. Dave's business became a testing laboratory. He was buying stones but people were sending him recommendations and stones. One of the anticipated posts were Dave's review of a stone. If it was positive, then the vendors who sold the stone, saw a sudden increase in sales. Ken was an early user of Chosera stones. He was trying to tell people, that Chosera were great stones. When Dave did a review of the Chosera, and reported they were great stones, they became popular.

Dave's opinion, carries weight and adds value to a product. The stone line up, was a natural extension of his business. Here are the same stones that a professional sharpener uses. The problem is without Dave's recommendation or comments, how do you sell the stones? The vendor isn't just selling stones, he is selling Dave's reputation.

I don't know in and outs of being a knife maker. But if makers are reluctant to share information on type of steel used in their knives, I'm sure they have their reasons. Maybe they don't want preconceived notions on steel, limiting their sales. Or it could be they are trying to maintain a competitive edge.

There is a notion that members will pay more to buy a product from a trusted vendor. Human nature is to take the best deal. If two vendors have the exact same product, the one with the lower price is more likely to win.

Jay
 
Yeah, I hear you guys and I think that, at the end, we all agree to support people like Dave and Jon because they have invested so much in researching the best and bringing it to us. That doubles up with a unique dedication to customers and this combo is just too precious to be discarded for a few dollars difference as proposed by other "lurchers". I haven't had the chance to deal with such nice vendors because of distance and shipping costs but I trust your opinions/reviews and sincerely hope they continue to have the success they deserve.
I still think though that keeping the steel a secret is a bit "meh", that's exactly why I'd never buy a mystical magical noo-bah-whateva "black steel" knife. I just feel like the seller is treating me like a brainless moron. Sorry maybe it's just my ego talking.Anyway I'll respect a trustful seller if he decides to keep it a secret and that helps his valuable business.
That Gesshin Kagekyio, on the other hand... :ninja:
 
Late to the party :D

:plus1: on Dave, Jon and Devin. Same apply to Jnats and synthetic stones ! Thats why i dont bother to write strata, full name and full Appearance. I have been proven wrong so many times that it just dont make sense anymore.
Same with Steel !
 
Bottom line is the vendor has a right to withhold that information for any reason they see it necessary, if you have a problem buying from them then thats your decision. When it comes to Jon at JKI you must be crazy to worry about purchasing from him, i have never had an issue with a purchase from him, but i feel confident if i had that Jon would have taken care of it right away.

He doesn't sell his products just to make a dime, he is selling them to people who actually need them, he searches for what you need and fits you, not just your wallet. You have tons of members here who vogue for him so if your new, dont get hung up on steel types, contact him and see what he recommends for you, i guarantee you will not be disappointed.
 
This thread is longer than it needs to be.

Business is a learn as you go thing. You learn from your mistakes and it is necessary to adjust so that it doesn't happen again. It is impossible to run a business at the whims of the customer, there has to boundaries set in place to preserve the integrity of the business as a whole.

Jon/JKI is a great example of how a business should be run.

Nuf said.

Love and respect

Hoss
 
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