Has the thought of going vegetarian ever crossed your mind?

[captaincaed]

Is that grain in liquid or solid form?

Shhhhhhhhhh.
Lack of meat is why daddy drinks.

 

[Jovidah]

I also help the planet a little, but my primary motivation is really because I love animals.

IMO by far the best reason to do it because it is indisputably true.
I'll argue all day when people bring up health and environmental arguments because those are often on very shaky ground, but the animal welfare argument remains true regardless of how the animals are raised and kept.

What I personally find an awkward dilemma is that animal welfare and environmental concerns are actually at odds with eachother. Slow-growing happy animals with lots of space will consume more food and have a higher carbon footprint than the industry animals.

 

[themobilesharpaner]

I'm sorry but I think you're really overstating certain things.

-The idea that 'minimizing animal protei reduces the risk of many illnesses' does not actually have very solid scientific evidence to state it as such. It's certainly not as universally true as you claim here, and whatever 'evidence' exists relies largely on correlating factors and confounding variables. So for example a lot of the 'red meat is bad' results relies on 2 factors: research in the US being done in the US where people consume a lot of their red meat in combination with refined carbs (fries / hamburgers) and soda (hence why you get inexplicable results like 'red meat leads to diabetes'), and the almost universal tendency to group all processed meats into red meat category (so any effects you're seeing are largely from the nitrites, not from the meat itself).
Just about the only meat-related statement that's really properly supported is 'nitrites are bad'.

-Similarly, animal protein is a rather big category. Were you to split it up further... I have yet to see any research that actually finds any negative effects from poultry and fish (as long as it's not tainted / polluted). Any research producing a negative effect of meats tends to only do this for red meat (and usually for aforementioned reasons).

-The main driver of 'meat is bad for you' gospel is that it's a convenient way to cut people's meat production that suits many parties, whether it's environmental groups who found their cute animal videos weren't working, or governments who are looking to reach carbon goals. There's more 'wishful analysis' than actually strong data (and virtually no experimental data).

-Whether a switch from meat to something else is a positive development on people's health depends a lot on what you replace it with. What I'm seeing here is that many people replace meat with simply more processed meat-replacements and end up eating more carbs / grains. Whether that's actually an improvement for their health is highly doubtful, and at best we're running a large-scale health experiment (in the same way the fat-is-bad-propaganda led to a diabetes epidemic).

-While I do agree that being an athlete on a vegetarian diet is technically possible, it is definitly harder. Although this is anecdotal, in my climbing club you could consistently pick out the vegetarians based on their build; the meat eaters would build up significantly more muscle under similar training schedules.

-Obesity rates have very little to do with consuming meat. In fact people who switch to a carnivore diet (not that I'm a fan of it) almost invariably end up losing weight. If there's a correlation on a country level this is because the higher-meat-consumption correlates with 'western diet of processed food and too much sugar'.
Although I'm incredibly reluctant to draw too many conclusions from country-statistics (it's a minefield of statistical traps), it doesn't really support this statement either way.

-I do agree that eating more veggies and fiber is definitly a good recommendation - and likely far more important for people's health than reducing protein intake. Most research points at 'carbs and processed food' being the area where you should reduce intake, not the proteins.
Which is also why you find such remarkable similarities between people going on extreme diets, whether it's fully plantbased, carnivore or paleo; they all end up cutting out the processed junk and excess refined carbs.

I've heard that all before, and personally as fas as no scientific evidence, I extremely disagree.

 

[timebard]

Some time ago I went vegetarian/near-vegan for a few years for ethical reasons. I still think this is the right thing to do, but found the experience pretty unpleasant. I don't think it did any harm to my health but I didn't feel great either and regularly craved animal protein. Getting both a reasonable variety of meals and balanced nutrition was a challenge. And being the difficult one when planning dining out with friends, colleagues, etc is annoying and exhausting. "We could try that new BBQ place... oh wait" and etc.

Anyway, I shifted my diet towards buying and eating good, as-ethically-sourced-as-reasonably-available animal products while still eating a lot of entirely or primarily plant based meals. I make a lot of meals that are vegan except for a bit of Parm/butter/bacon/an egg on top.

Nutritionally, my experience is that I usually feel best when I'm eating a lot of vegetables, quite a bit of meat/eggs, some fruit, and limited but non-zero dairy and grains. I try to mix that approach with more purely plant based cooking and it works pretty well.

 

[Just a DK]

Is that grain in liquid or solid form?

 

[jaydee]

Nope, I just feel sorry for anyone who limit's their food options.

Don't feel sorry for them. Its everbodys choice, they probably prefer it that way and chances are they are in a much better health state than very regular meat eaters.

I rarely eat meat although it probably still is too much.
Also don't crave it that often and most of the time i am underwhelmed by the flavour.
Couldnt live without the occasional duck dish though!

If you have problems cooking something tasty without meat, i dare say its about time to take a cooking course.
Whats the use for all those fancy knives if you can't cook?

 

[FishmanDE]

I would like a base pescatarian diet and splurge on red meat occasionally, but chicken is too cheap and I’m poor

 

[WildBoar]

If you have problems cooking something tasty without meat, i dare say its about time to take a cooking course.
Whats the use for all those fancy knives if you can't cook?

Yep -- learn how to deep fry and how to cook in pounds of butter

 

[Jovidah]

If you have problems cooking something tasty without meat, i dare say its about time to take a cooking course.
Whats the use for all those fancy knives if you can't cook?

You mean my honesuki, boning knives, filleting knives, and several sujihiki?
Also, if you're underwhelmed by meat it's time to start buying better meat!

 

[jaydee]

You mean my honesuki, boning knives, filleting knives, and several sujihiki?
Also, if you're underwhelmed by meat it's time to start buying better meat!

If i would eat more meat i would definitely buy whole animals and butcher away so i would definitely have a honesuki or similar at least. Pretty sure you use your "meat knives" often enough. (Not counting the cow swords ;-))

And yes, the bad quality of meat in germany is another sad topic. Mass-produced watery meats that is cheap.
The majority here obviously wants cheap meat so thats what they get. Not always easy to find the quality stuff.

I usually binge on meats whenever i am abroad and there is good stuff to be had,
which is almost every country except germany. US and ireland are some of the most memorable meat sources.

 

[Jovidah]

If i would eat more meat i would definitely buy whole animals and butcher away so i would definitely have a honesuki or similar at least. Pretty sure you use your "meat knives" often enough. (Not counting the cow swords ;-))

Yes my meat knives see quite some use. If you do a bit more work yourself you can get higher quality meat at a far more palatable price (for example buying whole birds, larger pieces of meat, whole fish, etc).

And yes, the bad quality of meat in germany is another sad topic. Mass-produced watery meats that is cheap.
The majority here obviously wants cheap meat so thats what they get. Not always easy to find the quality stuff.

I usually binge on meats whenever i am abroad and there is good stuff to be had,
which is almost every country except germany. US and ireland are some of the most memorable meat sources.

Believe it or not but 'average German supermarket' is far better than average Dutch supermarket when it comes to meat. A lot cheaper too. Here the supermarkets have watery meat that isn't even cheap...
Hence why I buy all my meat elsewhere. When I still got 'personal sales' I started getting sales for vegetarian products at some point...

Good quality meat is produced almost everywhere, the problem is finding it. Even the Netherlands makes plenty of good meat but most of it is either exported or ends up at restaurants / restaurant wholesalers (where I buy most of my meat).

For beef I really like the Irish and Scottish stuff, especially since there's a high chance that it's grassfed. For poultry I my best experiences are with Label Rouge stuff from France.
Pork...eh... basically have to get iberico or mangalica if you want any flavor.

 

[concernedparent]

IMO by far the best reason to do it because it is indisputably true.
I'll argue all day when people bring up health and environmental arguments because those are often on very shaky ground, but the animal welfare argument remains true regardless of how the animals are raised and kept.

Why are the environmental arguments shaky?

What I personally find an awkward dilemma is that animal welfare and environmental concerns are actually at odds with eachother. Slow-growing happy animals with lots of space will consume more food and have a higher carbon footprint than the industry animals.

Only if you accept the premise that the amount of animals consumed should be the same in the counterfactual. Between government subsidies, ecological damage and other unpaid externalities, the price of animal products from industrial farming does not reflect the true, overall costs of producing it. If it did, there would be a lot less consumption. If we also included the costs associated with slow-growing happy animals practices on top of that price, I'd bet that the overall harm to the planet from animal agriculture decreases, not increases.

 

[Jovidah]

Why are the environmental arguments shaky?

Because:
-Nutrition in general is only a small part of total human carbon footprint. It's only like 10-20% of total footprint for most households. The main reason governments like to focus on this is because this is something they can focus on with a relatively low chance of hurting the economy.

-If you're purely talking proteins, yes the footprint of red meat is significantly larger than purely pulses, but the differences start becoming a lot smaller when you start comparing to for example poultry and eggs. The picture also becomes a lot less rosy when you start considering stuff like nuts that often figures prominently in vegetarian / vegan diets (carbon isn't the only thing to consider).

-Which protein you consume in your diet isnt the only factor determining the total carbon footprint of your diet. So for example non-seasonal stuff grown in heated greenhouses, or stuff that has to be flown in by air has a far higher carbon footprint than seasonal stuff that grows in open air locally.

So I guess shaky is not the right term, but it's really overstated and often portrayed deceptively by interest groups with an ulterior motive. But in practise it's a lot more nuanced and the practical differences aren't as large.
But that doesn't stop certain groups from pushing that agenda using their cherry picked data. Like we've seen here in the Netherlands; animal rights groups doing lawsuits focusing on nitrogen emissions simply as a roundabout way to kill off the animal industry (when no one really cared about the nitrogen stuff).

Only if you accept the premise that the amount of animals consumed should be the same in both counterfactuals. Between government subsidies, ecological damage and other unpaid externalities, the price of animal products from industrial farming does not reflect the true, overall costs of producing it. If it did, there would be a lot less consumption. If we also included the costs associated with slow-growing happy animals practices on top of that price, I'd bet that the overall harm to the planet from animal agriculture decreases, not increases.

No what I mean is that... all else being equal, a chicken growing in 72 days having plenty of space will invariably consume more food to create a kg of protein, and will individually have a higher CO2 footprint on stuff like housing (because the cost of the barn is divided through less animals) than some caged industry animal who grows up in 39 days.

That's just a fact, without any subsidies or any other externalities coming into play. Animal cruelty has a cost to the animal but not to the planet.

Don't get me wrong; I also prefer happy animals and usually higher-welfare animals is what I get (because they're tastier and the 'safer bet' from a health perspective), but they do actually score worse on certain factors (food inputs, CO2 foot print, water consumption).
Yet there often seems to be an implicit assumption that 'happier animal means better for the environment' that is often not the case at all.

In the bigger picture you can't just say 'well everyone will just eat half'. That's not a solution, that's starvation.

 

[M1k3]

I don't think about going vegan. I have started going much heavier on the vegetables though. Basically switched regular American portions. Lots of vegetables, some meat and grain/starch.

Sucked at first. But used to it now and feel much better.

 

[chiffonodd]

I have started going much heavier on the vegetables though. Basic switched regular American portions. Lots of vegetables, some meat and grain/starch.

Sucked at first. But used to it now and feel much better.

That's the new goal for me too. Biggest portion vegetables, then lean protein, then complex carbs. More or less "mediterranean diet" style, although i've also seen that listed at 50% veggies, 25% lean protein, 25% carbs.

 

[M1k3]

That's the new goal for me too. Biggest portion vegetables, then lean protein, then complex carbs. More or less "mediterranean diet" style, although i've also seen that listed at 50% veggies, 25% lean protein, 25% carbs.

Yeah, Mediterranean is a good example. Lot's of vegetables with meat and other stuff as a supporting roll.

 

[Jovidah]

Everytime I hear 'mediterranean diet' I have a hard time matching that with what I know of the cuisines of places like Spain, Italy and southern France...

 

[dhruan]

I was on a more or less fully plant-based diet for some 15 years (as an adult, mind you) purely due to animal rights, environmental reasons, and other ethical considerations. So, yeah, I was a vegan through and through.

With Covid and some other things going down the toilet (including my loved one's first bout of cancer, my father dying a long death in isolation during Covid, etc.) I just kind of relapsed because **** it, the world was not fair so why should I pretend.

First it was just fish and seafood, and select seasonal game, then... the rest followed as the dam had been broken. So, I switched to eating meat and fish in a major way (still no dairy though) and as a result have gained some 25 kilos or so of overweight during the last four or so years. So... yeah. Well, I have been known to enjoy adult beverages on occasion, and living the healthy lifestyle of a sedentary office worker who rarely breaks a sweat so that has contributed to that also.

I am currently looking at getting back to a more plant-based diet with occasional game and fish/seafood in the mix for health reasons. This would include cutting down on the calories from food and alcohol, and also, actually moving my ass to break a sweat more regularly.

So, I am looking at diving even deeper into the world of Mediterranean, Japanese, Thai, Malaysian, etc. cuisines, plenty of most excellent plant-based dishes and fare there, expanded a great deal if you don't mind things like dashi or fish sauces (too old to be too militant about things now that 50 is creeping closer, but also, due to that, I do need to start taking my health more seriously).

Will be better for me, and for the planet also.

 

[chiffonodd]

Everytime I hear 'mediterranean diet' I have a hard time matching that with what I know of the cuisines of places like Spain, Italy and southern France...

Yeah it's usually more of a Greek/italian/Levantine affair.

 

[tgfencer]

Everytime I hear 'mediterranean diet' I have a hard time matching that with what I know of the cuisines of places like Spain, Italy and southern France...

Well to be fair, the traditional style of meals with smaller portions over several courses and longer eating times in many Med/European nations plays a pretty big role in addition to the type of food being eaten.

 

[DitmasPork]

I am eating veggies more. I feel better.

Maybe some small piece of fish, but very veggie heavy.

I admit it feel better afterwards. Across the board.

But meat is YUM! Not sure I could abandon meat. You?

Timely question—on Monday I'd just eaten meat for the first time in 90 days (a Buddhist/Taoist thang). I'd been vegetarian for a few years, decades ago, but now very much an omnivore. Ultimately, I'm not really into labels (vegetarian/vegan/jain)—and I'm really not bothered if a meal is meat free

I am eating veggies more. I feel better.

Maybe some small piece of fish, but very veggie heavy.

I admit it feel better afterwards. Across the board.

But meat is YUM! Not sure I could abandon meat. You?

Sure, of course—since one of my interests is cooking and food anthropology, it's impossible not to think about vegetarianism/veganism/jainism within the context of cuisine.

I'm an omnivore, but had been a vegetarian for a few years a few decades ago—no big deal, I've never felt that animal flesh is a required component for a meal. I'm married to a vegetarian (occasional pescatarian), so much of my cookery is meat-free. My major pet peeve on vegetarianism is that the majority of Western restaurants/pro cooks are inept with their vegetarian options—baked ziti, portobello steak, mushroom risottos bore most vegetarians I know.

Huge quantities of meat isn’t the wisest choice for health and environmental reasons, so discussions on meat consumption are common with my friends and family. Rather than become a vegetarian, I try to cut down the portion size of animal flesh—I aim for 25% meat/25% carbs/50% plants.

Although, when I visit and cook for family, I typically have a 'when in Rome' attitude and serve up copious amounts of meat.

 

[tgfencer]

I personally won't ever go vegetarian or vegan, but responsible and knowledgeable consumption of meat is important.

I try to advocate a more interesting way to consume meat. Being both a butcher and a former organic livestock farmer, I tend to advocate buying whole animals and using all their parts to make meals over a set period of time (1 pig for 6 months, 1/2 cow for a year, etc, obv depending on family size). Otherwise, butcher boxes or a fixed monthly/weekly meat specific budget that forces you to cook more inventively and explore cuisines from other cultures that are better about using the odd bits of animals.

Meat as an accent or supplement to a meal, rather than the main event/calorie provider, is also a useful mindset to adopt.

 

[DitmasPork]

I personally won't ever go vegetarian or vegan, but responsible and knowledgeable consumption of meat is important.

I try to advocate a more interesting way to consume meat. Being both a butcher and a former organic livestock farmer, I tend to advocate buying whole animals and using all their parts to make meals over a set period of time (1 pig for 6 months, 1/2 cow for a year, etc, obv depending on family size). Otherwise, butcher boxes or a fixed monthly/weekly meat specific budget that forces you to cook more inventively and explore cuisines from other cultures that are better about using the odd bits of animals.

Meat as an accent or supplement to a meal, rather than the main event/calorie provider, is also a useful mindset to adopt.

That's a good approach, and one that I've tried for years to convince my family in Hawaii—but they refuse to listen, are more into quantity over quality, always chasing sales at Costco buying up way more meat than they need.

 

[Jovidah]

Well to be fair, the traditional style of meals with smaller portions over several courses and longer eating times in many Med/European nations plays a pretty big role in addition to the type of food being eaten.

Valid point. Lately we see more and more data points that its not just about 'what' you eat, but also how, when and in which order.

 

[tgfencer]

That's a good approach, and one that I've tried for years to convince my family in Hawaii—but they refuse to listen, are more into quantity over quality, always chasing sales at Costco buying up way more meat than they need.

Yeah, I have the same problem with my parents. It's just ingrained for some reason.

There's a lot of acrimony and preachiness around ethical food consumption, but it's really boils down to a matter of political priorities. I don't judge people too hard, because financial realities being what they are, not everyone can afford to buy responsible meat/veg. That isn't their fault, its the fault of the flawed agricultural system, big agra corps, and insufficient/improperly implemented federal and state regulations and subsidies. Just as an example, in the US, out of about $12-15 billion a year give or take of federal ag subsidies, the top 10% of farm subsidy recipients (read big agribusinesses that make a big profit regardless) receive around 80% of all subsidies, while the bottom 80% received only 10%.

As someone who's never made a lot of money, I've definitely not always been able to shop/eat as I preach and often moan about the cost of organic veg and produce even though I know perfectly well all the reasons behind it.

 

[DitmasPork]

Yeah, I have the same problem with my parents. It's just ingrained for some reason.

There's a lot of acrimony and preachiness around ethical food consumption, but it's really boils down to a matter of political priorities. I don't judge people too hard, because financial realities being what they are, not everyone can afford to buy responsible meat/veg. That isn't their fault, its the fault of the flawed agricultural system, big agra corps, and insufficient/improperly implemented federal and state regulations and subsidies. Just as an example, in the US, out of about $12-15 billion a year give or take of federal ag subsidies, the top 10% of farm subsidy recipients (read big agribusinesses that make a big profit regardless) receive around 80% of all subsidies, while the bottom 80% received only 10%.

As someone who's never made a lot of money, I've definitely not always been able to shop/eat as I preach and often moan about the cost of organic veg and produce even though I know perfectly well all the reasons behind it.

I do get annoyed when people pontificate about food, ...or knives. I get where my parents are coming from—they grew up during WW2, when food was scarce, eating supper behind blacked out windows, etc.

...although, more annoying for me is the carnivorous bravado, anti-vegetarianism I often see online.

It's just food—I do what I can to cook/eat responsibly.

 

[MarcelNL]

Everytime I hear 'mediterranean diet' I have a hard time matching that with what I know of the cuisines of places like Spain, Italy and southern France...

do not misstake the 'vacationers' med diet with that of Joe Average out there, the latter is the Med diet that is likely doing quite well for our health ;-)

 

[tgfencer]

I do get annoyed when people pontificate about food, ...or knives. I get where my parents are coming from—they grew up during WW2, when food was scarce, eating supper behind blacked out windows, etc.

...although, more annoying for me is the carnivorous bravado, anti-vegetarianism I often see online.

It's just food—I do what I can to cook/eat responsibly.

Yeah I agree. For me in particular, the toxic cult of masculinity and meat drives me nuts. Guess the same could be said of knives and knife collecting more broadly too, outside of the culinary world.

 

[WildBoar]

Pretty sure the 'rich people' getting the choicer cuts has been around since waaaay before 'big agra'. Phrases like 'high on the hog' back this up. It is not simply a modern day condition. The less-well-off people came up with many ways to make the less desirable bits and pieces into delicious meals.

 

[tgfencer]

Pretty sure the 'rich people' getting the choicer cuts has been around since waaaay before 'big agra'. Phrases like 'high on the hog' back this up. It is not simply a modern day condition. The less-well-off people came up with many ways to make the less desirable bits and pieces into delicious meals.

Yeah, of course, it has been and always probably will be that way to a large degree. I just meant that the blocks on a wider access to healthy and responsibly raised foods in the US and elsewhere for a greater number of people is largely predicated on the agricultural system. Improving our food system and its regulations/subsides can improve people's lives, which I don't think is a controversial assertion.