Heavy Chef's Knife - A New Project

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Huw, I getcha. I've just heard some people say "thinning a Kato", and I was a bit confused by what people mean when they write this. Katos are still very highly regarded as a "cult following" type of knife, which makes me assume they must be great cutters off the hop. My only experience with one is a 180 petty, and it's very nice.
So, back to the grind; It sounds like a long, pronounced secondary bevel is well liked when it leads up to nice convexing on a heavy blade(?)
 
Convex is basically two angles blended, so to replicate convex while thinning on the stones, you need to cut two bevels.

Single beveled knives appeared flat on the bevels, but in reality they are convex with the factory grind.

Now, my last question about Heiji grind, do you guys think there might be an advantage lifting the bevel at the heel a little bit, approaching the width to that near the tip?

M
 
Need to tune the bevels on the stone a little bit and to do a basic polish and out it goes for testing.

Cut some apples and peaches at home. Food separation was very good. Now need to hear from experts who who have used Heiji. Version 1.1 will incorporate all suggestions. Then version 1.2, 1.3 and so on until no improvements are needed.

This knife (225mm) with handle will weigh about 255g.

M

DSC_0560.jpg
 
Awesome. Are you using the same size blanks just with less grinding? Or are these thicker?
 
I use blanks 3.4mm thick. Heiji is about 4.5mm thick at the handle, and about 4mm over the heel, but half way, 2" from the tip, midsection, the measurements and weight of both knives are comparable. I see no point using thicker stock and grinding most of it off, just to get the same thickness as Heiji at the handle.

52100 steel on this one.


M
 
Who uses Heiji in a pro kitchen regularly? Preferably in continental US.

Anybody?
 
There would be no fun in knife making if everything just fell in my lap. Little progress makes me happy.
 
Another great project. This style knife has been often praised and talked about, but always with a veil of magic or mystery. It's fun to see the logical, deliberate, scientific approach.

I like how you created the 3 different categories too.

You're correct that There really is no real benefit to the super-thick section right in front of the handle, but it sure does add to the cool factor -almost like an integral bolster. So when do you move to a shop with a forge?
 
Justin0505 said:
Another great project. This style knife has been often praised and talked about, but always with a veil of magic or mystery. It's fun to see the logical, deliberate, scientific approach.

I like how you created the 3 different categories too.

You're correct that There really is no real benefit to the super-thick section right in front of the handle, but it sure does add to the cool factor -almost like an integral bolster. So when do you move to a shop with a forge?
Click to expand...

The only benefit I could think of is the added weight if a person was to use the heel area for splitting. that might be something to consider given that in these knives heel area is underutilized.

Still waiting for electricity upgrade, so I can move in the direction of in-house blank cutting and salt pods. Those would be my priority for now.

M
 
heh, I was just (half) joking about the forge.... just want to be first in line for the Tsourkan integral bolster :)

Seriously though, i cant imagine the few grams of extra weight just in front of the handle would have a noticeable difference. Even comfort-wise the area that you'd ever actually be pushing on is far enough fwd that it's down to the same thickness of the stock that you're using.

Now if you're taking about making that even thicker and extending the thick section out to further over the heel... well that might be interesting...


Where is the current "sweet spot" on your alpha test blade? One of the things that I thought was really "off" with many of the heavy gyuto's I've used was that the profile was not well-matched to where the blade naturally wanted to contact the board first due to it's blade-fwd balance.
Properly tuning the profile to the balance or vica-versa is, IMO, one of the areas for greatest improvement in the "heavy gyuto" world. You could gird it close and then fine-tune it using the handle weight / adjusting the thickness of an end-cap.
 
One thing I don't love about Heiji style grind is where the shinogi meets the spine it usually thickens up quite quickly, which can cause wedging/stopping in tip work like brunoise onion, would it be possible to transition from wide bevel to blended face Say 3 inches from the tip without looking ridiculous/ being impossible to maintain? Something like this but without the upsweep being a "crisp" line
null_zpsf585e39a.jpg
[/IMG]
 
I really like where this might go...

Von blewitt said:
One thing I don't love about Heiji style grind is where the shinogi meets the spine it usually thickens up quite quickly, which can cause wedging/stopping in tip work like brunoise onion, would it be possible to transition from wide bevel to blended face Say 3 inches from the tip without looking ridiculous/ being impossible to maintain? Something like this but without the upsweep being a "crisp" line
null_zpsf585e39a.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...
 
Well, there seem to be no takers in the US (testers), I guess, I will consider sending the prototype to Australia. Huw, are you up for it? I need to think a little bit about how to make the grind change you proposed.

It could probably be a multi-zone heavy chef's - thinner tip for fine work, thicker heel for splitting and the rest of the edge for a very good food separation.

Anyway, back to my regular work. Won't attempt version 1.1 until receive feedback on version 1, probably a month+ away.

M
 
Von blewitt said:
One thing I don't love about Heiji style grind is where the shinogi meets the spine it usually thickens up quite quickly, which can cause wedging/stopping in tip work like brunoise onion, would it be possible to transition from wide bevel to blended face Say 3 inches from the tip without looking ridiculous/ being impossible to maintain? Something like this but without the upsweep being a "crisp" line
null_zpsf585e39a.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

I think Marko's prototype already utilizes this to some extent, if you look at the pictures.
 
He is talking about 3", that's longer than I have it on the prototype. For efficient tip use, I might need to push the convex a bit further back. Will give it a shot tomorrow.
 
I totally missed this, I regularly use a heiji in a pro kitchen in the US. If you are looking for testers, I would be pleased and honored.
 
Marko Tsourkan said:
Well, there seem to be no takers in the US (testers), I guess, I will consider sending the prototype to Australia. Huw, are you up for it? I need to think a little bit about how to make the grind change you proposed.

It could probably be a multi-zone heavy chef's - thinner tip for fine work, thicker heel for splitting and the rest of the edge for a very good food separation.

Anyway, back to my regular work. Won't attempt version 1.1 until receive feedback on version 1, probably a month+ away.

M
Click to expand...
Well, Marko... as long as you're willing to ship to my part of the globe, I'll have a go at it as well.
 
I must have missed this one as well. I'd give it a fair go.
 
This is a first prototype. There will be at least 1-2 more - sometimes it does take that long to come with a good knife andto figure out an efficient way of making it.

I will spread it around. folks. The next will be tested in US.

M
 
Marko, if this prototype is coming to Australia, I'd be keen to have a look at it as well. This is a super interesting project.
 
I would say, let's keep the expectation low on this project (this first knife). I am just beginning to study this type of geometry and it will take me a while before I understand it enough to come up with a good knife. I will however work with the pro guys in trying to improve this geometry to get most of this type, so passarounds are definitely in the plans.
 
Also, remember, there will be two more geometries coming up - heavy convex (Kato) and asymmetric (Mizuno). There will be plenty to go around.

Based on the feedback, I will probably select one for my heavy chef's knife, but will try all of them to gain a better understanding.

M
 
Von blewitt said:
One thing I don't love about Heiji style grind is where the shinogi meets the spine it usually thickens up quite quickly, which can cause wedging/stopping in tip work like brunoise onion, would it be possible to transition from wide bevel to blended face Say 3 inches from the tip without looking ridiculous/ being impossible to maintain? Something like this but without the upsweep being a "crisp" line
null_zpsf585e39a.jpg
[/IMG]
Click to expand...

I don't know if this is not how it's supposed to be done, but this is actually how I thin my Yoshihiro gyuto. I really like my Heiji even for onion brunoise, but the Yoshihiro was just too thick at the tip. I started thinning it the way your pictures shows and it's improved the performance a lot.
 
heirkb said:
I don't know if this is not how it's supposed to be done, but this is actually how I thin my Yoshihiro gyuto. I really like my Heiji even for onion brunoise, but the Yoshihiro was just too thick at the tip. I started thinning it the way your pictures shows and it's improved the performance a lot.
Click to expand...

I do the same to all of my knives.
 
heirkb said:
I don't know if this is not how it's supposed to be done, but this is actually how I thin my Yoshihiro gyuto. I really like my Heiji even for onion brunoise, but the Yoshihiro was just too thick at the tip. I started thinning it the way your pictures shows and it's improved the performance a lot.
Click to expand...

It's how a lot of custom makers do their knives. If you think about it its kind of intuitive, if you have the metal to work with to get it done properly. It absolutely increases the utility of the tip, at the cost of reducing stiffness some. For myself I prefer the utility :).

I know your picture wasn't the same Marko, but its definitely wider than most of the production knives I've seen out there...that's why I made the comparison :). I have always loved looking at your work. Definitely inspirational!
 
I cut more today with the knife and think that to make the tip the versatile, it needs to be ground a bit thinner and full convex, while the rest of the geometry should be similar to Heiji. That's what I am going to do and see how it is received.

M
 
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