Economic reasons like Ed mentioned and environmental reasons like habitat destruction, water pollution, landsliding, etc. There're departments under the Environment Ministry and local prefectural government supervising that, depending on locations.
J-Nat Club
- Thread starter maxim
- Start date
Help Support Kitchen Knife Forums:
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2019
- Messages
- 3,607
- Reaction score
- 7,685
boo pillage the land for pretty rocks
Thoughts on this stone? What do you think it is? Self slurries in no time at all. Not as coarse as I would’ve guessed. Pleasant polisher at first trail.
Been a while since I’ve picked up a new one so it’s exciting
Been a while since I’ve picked up a new one so it’s exciting
Attachments
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2018
- Messages
- 2,091
- Reaction score
- 4,280
I’ve used Iyoto and Binsui that looked very similar to that and performed similar too. With midgrits it’s always hard to pin down a source unless it’s something really distinctive. There are hundreds of varieties and many of them undocumented or even unnamed
Possibly a rare variant of aizu, smell could help confirm. If it is, it's my favourite kind of aizu.
Madara Aizu crossed my mind, but the description of it being soft and lack of mention of the typical Aizu smell crossed it off my list. Not seeing the feldspar either, but it could be possible definitelyPossibly a rare variant of aizu, smell could help confirm. If it is, it's my favourite kind of aizu.
Last edited:
ThanksPossibly a rare variant of aizu, smell could help confirm. If it is, it's my favourite kind of aizu.
Auction was listed as aizu but with lack of detailed photos I just assumed it was natsuya or something.
Great stone nonetheless
NotAddictedYet
Remember to Enable
Possibly a rare variant of aizu, smell could help confirm. If it is, it's my favourite kind of aizu.
How would you describe the aizu smell?
Grassy, herby, chalky
Possibly a rare variant of aizu, smell could help confirm. If it is, it's my favourite kind of aizu.
Why is this one rare?
Corradobrit1
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2015
- Messages
- 6,837
- Reaction score
- 6,888
Sounds like the completely engineered/manipulated diamond trade and the De Beers Cartel business model. No shortage of diamonds but severe control of their release manages to keep prices artificially astronomically high. And we as buyers are enablers and keep this model viable. Rolex are perpetuating a similar throttling of supply. The common feature of all these businesses is that they are privately owned or Charitable Trusts so can do what they like without having to answer to shareholders and play the long game.
And what makes less sense are the massive price increases in the last couple of years when these stones have already been mined and are sitting in sheds gathering Jnat dust. The expense of getting them out of the mountain has already been expended and all that is required is cutting and polishing. Probably the least expensive part of the operation.
Last edited:
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2019
- Messages
- 3,607
- Reaction score
- 7,685
I'd probably say patek and their stainless steel sports models to be fair...rolex actually pumps out a ton, and people think they are just rare, when in reality they make over a million watches a year...
Corradobrit1
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2015
- Messages
- 6,837
- Reaction score
- 6,888
This is true. But visit any authorised dealer and you get laughed at if you want to impulse buy a steel sports model. They just aren't 'available' to ordinary, casual buyers. Bundle with an expensive piece of jewellery or an undesirable model or brand and Open Sesame. They miraculously appear from the safe. It's laughable to see empty display cases and being told come back in 5 years and we might have that Submariner or 36mm Explorer 1 for you.
- Joined
- Aug 27, 2019
- Messages
- 3,607
- Reaction score
- 7,685
I have friends that have gotten stainless steel sports models within weeks, no prior purchases where patek is 5 years minimum for anyone. But yeah, for the most part the situation isn't ideal. Been there done that. I was on the "list" for a hulk for 3 years with no luck before I called it quits, and bought one on ebay for over msrp. Thankfully the market is finally cooling down a bit at least right now.
It's like a lot of hobbies since covid happened. People with money and free time started buying up anything and everything at exorbitant prices. Happened on here, with stones, pocket knives, watches....cars...
People keep saying how rare some stones are (ahem ohira suitas) but they keep popping up.
Last edited:
Just coz this pattern is hardly seen on the market. Especially perfect pieces that are also functional. Mostly you get white variety and occasionally a greenish variant.
Certainly some truth in this, but there is also some more to it. Unlike diamonds, which are still commercially mined at scale, the only awasedo mine I'm aware of operating as a full time commercial enterprise is Maruo. The vast majority of the sites have been closed for decades at this point. To reopen the mining sites the rights holders would need to comply with all the modern safety and environmental standards that come with shaft mining. Additionally at many mines new veins would have to be sought out. In many, if not most cases, regulation makes it financially unfeasible or even legally impossible to start mining again.
So while there are healthy stockpiles of certain types of stones, most of these stocks are managed with the understanding that it is a finite resource. In most instances, these families, miners, and businesses involved in selling natural stones view them as part of the cultural heritage of the region and an integral part of many crafts ranging from sword polishing to temple restoration. In many ways, the prices we see are reflective of an intent to stretch remaining inventory for future generations. Of course, it is frustrating that it's all just sitting there and prices keeping trending up, but the reasons for it are a bit more complex than generic corporate greed.
And Jnats have always been expensive.. Especially the big suita and high grade nakayama. I've bought type 24 suita that had layers of moth eaten price stickers with even the oldest ones being well over 100k JPY which would equate to 300k+ today based on inflation. 3-500k is roughly in line with what one should expect to pay for a high grade type 24 suita or full size Nakayama kiita these days. If you're able to get to Japan and visit the shops you can still sort through the koppa bins and find incredible stuff for very reasonable prices, but there isn't an established way for those smaller, yet quality, stones to leave Japan as retailers won't help potential buyers pick them. This is also totally understandable as most of these shops are one man (or woman) shows and testing and photographing that many koppa only to sell them for modest sums makes no sense.
This is also the case. In what is a very small market to start with, a few hundred extra enthusiasts can create supply crunches really quickly. It certainly has made things in the JNat market feel worse over the last few years.
Ohira Suita aren't really that rare at all. Sword grade Ohira uchigumori on the other hand... almost impossible to find. Finding a really exceptional jito these days is next to impossible, I've been trying for almost a year. Japanese togishi rightly get first dibs and demand is sufficient there to make it pretty challenging to acquire a piece.
The really rare stuff isn't usually the big brands though. Stones from Ashi, Shinden, Hideri (suita), Sango, Hakka, Takao, and many others are truly rare. These are the stones that even a high volume collector might only come across once or twice.
Still can't find info how to determime Uchigumori Hazuya vs Jizuya. Is there a set HSD line separating the two?
I have a Mizukihara Uchigumori Hazuya 53HSD and it's my most expensive whetstone to date.
Dry
Wet
There isn’t a set line between the two. There is a full spectrum from hato to jito when it comes to stones. Sometimes a jito stone isn’t even Uchigumori, Narutaki was / is frequently used as jiyuza material. In general, you tell the difference by using the stone rather than aesthetics or numbers. A hato will be coarser and softer and primarily make hagane white / kasumi. A jito will be harder and finer and be more prone to burnished mirror type finishes. Between the softest hato that makes the hardest steel a flat white and the finest jito which seemingly does nothing but brings depth and mirror to jigane with time there are hundreds of intermediate flavors.
I got some Narutaki as well.
Corradobrit1
Senior Member
- Joined
- May 2, 2015
- Messages
- 6,837
- Reaction score
- 6,888
Never really paid much attention to this stone. Picked it up 6 years ago on Yahoo.jp for $95. It always performed so well compared to much higher priced stones and now I know a possible explanation. It's remarkably similar to this Hatahoshi Nakayama Maruka Suita, right down to the fine detail, sedimentary layers and coloration.
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...-suita-trade-options-added.63449/#post-971159
https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/...-suita-trade-options-added.63449/#post-971159
Got more pictures?
Hi,
I hope it’s ok to jump in and ask a question. I’ve just joined the forum and introduced myself. Learning to sharpen, with good enough results on 400/1000/3000 diamond and synthetic stones.
I bought this stone to try a japanese natural finishing stone. It’s from a private seller who bought it in Kyoto and was told it is a finishing stone 8-14k, variable with warmer or cooler water. It came with a small nagura stone for slurry.
I really can’t quite get my head around jnat classification just yet but from other examples I think it might be a ‘suita’ type stone is that right? It feels very smooth, some small inclusions, and I think it is soft rather than very hard.
Any advice on what it is gratefully received, but especially if that also suggests a particular technique to get the best out of it.
Thanks!
I hope it’s ok to jump in and ask a question. I’ve just joined the forum and introduced myself. Learning to sharpen, with good enough results on 400/1000/3000 diamond and synthetic stones.
I bought this stone to try a japanese natural finishing stone. It’s from a private seller who bought it in Kyoto and was told it is a finishing stone 8-14k, variable with warmer or cooler water. It came with a small nagura stone for slurry.
I really can’t quite get my head around jnat classification just yet but from other examples I think it might be a ‘suita’ type stone is that right? It feels very smooth, some small inclusions, and I think it is soft rather than very hard.
Any advice on what it is gratefully received, but especially if that also suggests a particular technique to get the best out of it.
Thanks!
Attachments
As a postscript,
From internet searching I think this stone might be from the Umaji mine? Similar markings on the stone in the picture attached.
I’m also getting the idea that the more stainless steel knives I have I should keep away from this stone and use something harder/coarser?
From internet searching I think this stone might be from the Umaji mine? Similar markings on the stone in the picture attached.
I’m also getting the idea that the more stainless steel knives I have I should keep away from this stone and use something harder/coarser?
Looks like it could be a tomae layer stone. Perhaps some additional photos of the stone both wet and dry might bring out the stone detectives here.
Looks like an Aizu
No chance for Aizu. Tomae could be the strata.
It’s tomae of some type - generic dark green / brown type coloring.
Warm or cool water won’t make any difference to finishing level. It’s almost certainly a quite fine stone suitable for very final finishing.
You’ll never know the mine, the stamp on the side reads “original mountain” more or less, meaning it’s from one of the Kyoto area mines but not more specific. More than a dozen mines made stones like this.
Thanks ! Tomae specifies one of the types of stratum is that right?
And for use as a finishing stone does that mean that after sharpening on a 3000 synthetic you go to this one for some light swipes on the micro bevel , or a longer polish if you want to remove scratches etc from the primary bevel? I’ve been doing edge leading sharpening and this stone is very smooth, but from what I see most people do edge trailing then a little edge leading for deburring only?
I will post some more pictures with water etc.
That’s interesting to know about the kanji script - I was just going by the appearance inside the flower-like symbol, it seemed different for different stones but point taken ! It was too indistinct for google to translate it.
